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Also, it brings up a more general topic that I don't think we've talked about in here before, which is how much worse an accusation of infidelity is for a woman vs a man. 

 

This is something I've been thinking about a fair amount recently. I hate to admit it, but my gut reaction to female infidelity seems to be more pronounced than it is for male infidelity. I'm pretty uneasy with infidelity in general – people can be promiscuous if they like, but I think they owe their partners honesty – and I'm not at all impressed by the whole "player" thing, but my emotional response to women cheating seems stronger and more immediate than to men cheating. The most charitable explanation I can think of is that this is all media portrayals of infidelity (my friends don't seem to get involved in too much relationship drama, or at least don't involve me in it), and perhaps I'm just responding to the storytellers' subtle sexism in what emotional strings they're pulling. But that's probably bullshit. What's far more likely is that I feel personally threatened by the very idea of a woman cheating, as evidenced by the fact that I seem to care even if the character doesn't. I don't know if that means I ought to get over that silly reaction, or that I don't have enough empathy with female characters. Or perhaps it's just natural, and we all inevitably react differently to people more like ourselves, and we just need to keep that in mind and overcome our knee-jerk responses when necessary. I don't know. I'm frankly not sure at all what to do with the observation, but it seems valuable to at least be aware of it. To be introspective.

 

I should be clear, though: my response isn't feelings of ill-will especially towards the unfaithful party; it's a weird sinking feeling in sympathy with the cheated-on person. It's about hurt rather than anger. The slut-shaming thing is a whole other thing (though probably related).

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I want to be clear that I'm not judging you.  I think those thoughts are really natural for a lot of people.  But part of the reason for it is the pervasive notion that women's sexuality is owned by men, or communal property to regulated by men (see all the legal bullshit about reproductive rights).  This is an idea that most of us have been exposed to throughout our lives, without even being aware of it. 

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Female games journo on Facebook:

 

Scumbag indie dev girlfriend cheats on her boyfriend with 5 guys and tries to cover it up and lie about it. Some of these guys are journalists who should totally know better than to cover products of someone they're literally porking. Also they probably shouldn't be porking indie dev lady if they have a wife/she had a boyfriend/something something something?

 

Internet is mad mainly because of that relation, not because she's cheated because that's her business. Sadly her dirty laundry being hung out to dry (that sucks) and personal information/pictures etc being shared (super unfair), some nasty misogynistic comments (mega bad), the people who probably should be apologising are those who promoted her product while doing the porking thing. Internet should probably be more mad at them than her. BUT INTERNET NOT ALWAYS LOGICAL  Her only 'crime' is cheating on her boyfriend.

 

Zoe? She's played the game. She's played it well. If fucking 5 guys - who happen to be journalists - while you have a boyfriend is how you promote your game then whatever but don't be surprised when the internet finds out and gets mad brah.

 

Also promoting your game in the wake of a famous actor dying, regardless of it being now free or not, is pretty shitty. Nice moral compass.

 

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This might be completely off topic, but besides the obviously stupid paranoia surrounding the 4chan/reddit "feminist cabal" thing, how should actual incidents of conflict of interest in journalism be handled without invading somebody's private life and probably digging up sexist prejudices? Though I guess if the outlet itself doesn't try to be an "objective"  source of information, does it actually matter in any way?

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Female games journo on Facebook:

Christ. I have nothing more to say than how disgusted I am by all of this. It's terrifying to know that someone who was once close to you could violate your trust and privacy in such a malicious and pathetic way and have the support of many people while they do it.

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This might be completely off topic, but besides the obviously stupid paranoia surrounding the 4chan/reddit "feminist cabal" thing, how should actual incidents of conflict of interest in journalism be handled without invading somebody's private life and probably digging up sexist prejudices? Though I guess if the outlet itself doesn't try to be an "objective" source of information, does it actually matter in any way?

My personal opinion is that if someone gets a better review because they have a personal relationship with the developer, then I actually respect that review more than one by someone who doesn't have any personal interaction with the developer.

If money is thrown to the reviewers then I have less respect for the opinion.

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Christ. I have nothing more to say than how disgusted I am by all of this. It's terrifying to know that someone who was once close to you could violate your trust and privacy in such a malicious and pathetic way and have the support of many people while they do it.

 

I agree. I think the consensus among people aiming to appear reasonable is, "Yeah, it's her own business, but what did she expect," as if there's some quiet justice in all of this. There's nothing that makes me angrier than the implicit acceptance of the internet as a privacy-invading hate machine that we all just have to live with. Is there any of us who'd come out of a 4chan raid looking spotless? Ugh.

 

My personal opinion is that if someone gets a better review because they have a personal relationship with the developer, then I actually respect that review more than one by someone who doesn't have any personal interaction with the developer.

If money is thrown to the reviewers then I have less respect for the opinion.

 

Personally, I know of no one who's so good in bed that they'd change my opinion of their unrelated work on the public record. It's just man-babies who've wanted a reason to hate Quinn for a while and have now found "hard evidence" of her "feminine duplicity."

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I still think the conspiracy is completely and totally irrelevant, but consider for a moment that it was real. So what? What is the actual consequence of potentially five reviewers giving a game a more favorable review because of some sexual tryst off to the side? I mean, if you think that's the most substantive element of the argument because you care about ethics first and foremost, what is the impact? Maybe some other indie game gets slightly less spotlight? I mean, reviews aren't quid pro quo - just because X game gets a better score it doesn't mean Y game gets a worse score, or even less coverage because it's "worse". The developer's games seem to be more personal and passion projects more than anything else - this is not like some PR seductress influencing IGN to effectively bump a Metacritic aggregated score by 5 points and getting a studio to make millions of dollars more as a result.

 

Even if you look at the most potentially "objective" complaint about this whole thing, the stakes for literally everyone but her are so pitifully low. Even if she was exposed by some other means that didn't directly reveal her alleged sexual misconduct, I'm not really convinced that anyone would 1) really care all that much 2) be measurably impacted in any way. So really this is a farce, plain and simple.

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I still think the conspiracy is completely and totally irrelevant, but consider for a moment that it was real. So what? What is the actual consequence of potentially five reviewers giving a game a more favorable review because of some sexual tryst off to the side? I mean, if you think that's the most substantive element of the argument because you care about ethics first and foremost, what is the impact? Maybe some other indie game gets slightly less spotlight? I mean, reviews aren't quid pro quo - just because X game gets a better score it doesn't mean Y game gets a worse score, or even less coverage because it's "worse". The developer's games seem to be more personal and passion projects more than anything else - this is not like some PR seductress influencing IGN to effectively bump a Metacritic aggregated score by 5 points and getting a studio to make millions of dollars more as a result.

 

Even if you look at the most potentially "objective" complaint about this whole thing, the stakes for literally everyone but her are so pitifully low. Even if she was exposed by some other means that didn't directly reveal her alleged sexual misconduct, I'm not really convinced that anyone would 1) really care all that much 2) be measurably impacted in any way. So really this is a farce, plain and simple.

Quid pro quo journalism is completely unacceptable, especially if we ever want to be taken seriously as a medium at large.  I don't think that's the case here but if it is?  Yikes, that's bad.  Like, really really bad.  

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Quid pro quo journalism is completely unacceptable, especially if we ever want to be taken seriously as a medium at large.  I don't think that's the case here but if it is?  Yikes, that's bad.  Like, really really bad.  

 

You seriously cannot convince me to care in this particular case. Also, I don't think we deserve to be taken seriously.

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this is not like some PR seductress influencing IGN to effectively bump a Metacritic aggregated score by 5 points and getting a studio to make millions of dollars more as a result.

 

I'm going to play devil's advocate (because it's how I contribute to discussions like this) and ask "What if this was the case".  Would it change your opinion if she did work for a big company?  Is her case different because she's indie and will impact a smaller audience?

 

And to be perfectly clear: these are not my opinions.  I just feel that a real discussion needs to be looked at from multiple angles.

 

As an aside, it's also part of the reason I hate scored reviews but I won't go into it because it's mostly off topic.

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You seriously cannot convince me to care in this particular case. Also, I don't think we deserve to be taken seriously.

I don't even want to speculate on whether it's true or not because that only feeds the flames.  As for deserving to be taken seriously, well, it's something we need to work toward.  If we just resign ourselves to saying "we'll never be taken seriously and beside the point, we shouldn't be taken seriously," the medium will suffer.  Like, suffer a lot.  That's why encouraging and supporting good games journalism is really important.  

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I'm going to play devil's advocate (because it's how I contribute to discussions like this) and ask "What if this was the case".  Would it change your opinion if she did work for a big company?  Is her case different because she's indie and will impact a smaller audience?

 

And to be perfectly clear: these are not my opinions.  I just feel that a real discussion needs to be looked at from multiple angles.

 

As an aside, it's also part of the reason I hate scored reviews but I won't go into it because it's mostly off topic.

 

I'm not really talking about my opinion. I'm just saying that if these people are trying to accomplish something in good faith (which I don't believe is true), the impact of what legitimate wrongdoing they were hoping to reveal pales in comparison to the personal impact that their actions have. Even in the hypothetical case I mentioned, I was more trying to highlight the financial impact that the wrongdoing would have that could be quantified as saying, "look at this bad thing, it made it so X amount more people bought the game due to a higher review score and this measurably, negatively impacting consumers". As it is, even that impact is minimal so I'm having trouble even seeing what I am supposed to be angry about on an ethical front.

 

I appreciate the idea that reviews are tarnished by "transactions" of the nature that these crazy people are suggesting. I just really don't think that it matters all that much, especially when it means that some person (really some people, as anyone close to her is affected) out there is getting death threats. That kind of shit has a chilling effect that destroys the spirit of the industry. What good is the supposed ethical backbone of games when we're fucking dead inside because some assholes stomp on every non-white, non-CIS male out there?

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I'm not really talking about my opinion. I'm just saying that if these people are trying to accomplish something in good faith (which I don't believe is true), the impact of what legitimate wrongdoing they were hoping to reveal pales in comparison to the personal impact that their actions have. Even in the hypothetical case I mentioned, I was more trying to highlight the financial impact that the wrongdoing would have that could be quantified as saying, "look at this bad thing, it made it so X amount more people bought the game due to a higher review score and this measurably, negatively impacting consumers". As it is, even that impact is minimal so I'm having trouble even seeing what I am supposed to be angry about on an ethical front.

 

I appreciate the idea that reviews are tarnished by "transactions" of the nature that these crazy people are suggesting. I just really don't think that it matters all that much, especially when it means that some person (really some people, as anyone close to her is affected) out there is getting death threats. That kind of shit has a chilling effect that destroys the spirit of the industry. What good is the supposed ethical backbone of games when we're fucking dead inside because some assholes stomp on every non-white, non-CIS male out there?

While death threats are definitely out of line, professional ethics do matter a lot.  Companies and industries are propped up on a basis of trust.  Given that the games industry seems to have a deficit of trust in general, the accusations alone are bad, much less if they are true.  Also, I understand that you're struggling with this stuff but we have to be realistic too.  "assholes stomping on every non-white, non-CIS male out there?"  Real people DO get hurt and killed but somehow I doubt that video games are the cause of it.  Plus, that level of cynicism is a bit defeatist.  Feminism, gender, and many other issues are beginning to break into the main stream of video game culture and even culture at large.  We are making progress, it's just that progress will never be as fast as we'd like.  

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There's nothing that makes me angrier than the implicit acceptance of the internet as a privacy-invading hate machine that we all just have to live with. Is there any of us who'd come out of a 4chan raid looking spotless?

 

My wife and I are actually discussing a business move which could potentially make us (and especially her) much more visible publicly (and attract some possibly negative attention).  It involves shifting gears from our current business to something she's passionate about (she's spent years helping me build my business, and I want to return the favor).  One of the parts of our discussion is if it's actually better if we out some stuff about both of us now, in a low-key but public way, so that there can't be any gotcha moments once we open the new business. 

 

This causes her more anxiety than me, which I understand.  But she's also reached a point where she knows this is what she wants to do, and is tired of being afraid of pursuing the professional life she wants. 

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While death threats are definitely out of line, professional ethics do matter a lot.  Companies and industries are propped up on a basis of trust.  Given that the games industry seems to have a deficit of trust in general, the accusations alone are bad, much less if they are true.  Also, I understand that you're struggling with this stuff but we have to be realistic too.  "assholes stomping on every non-white, non-CIS male out there?"  Real people DO get hurt and killed but somehow I doubt that video games are the cause of it.  Plus, that level of cynicism is a bit defeatist.  Feminism, gender, and many other issues are beginning to break into the main stream of video game culture and even culture at large.  We are making progress, it's just that progress will never be as fast as we'd like.  

 

A person from the internet with the information leaked about her WENT TO HER HOUSE. They are using hacked passwords to ACCESS HER FINANCIAL INFORMATION.

 

This is not theoretical. And it recurs with enough frequency that this is not some nebulous threat - people use issues like ethics as a screen of legitimacy so that they can do despicable shit.

 

Recently someone asked, what happened to all the women who used to work at 1UP? Since 1UP was one of the first sites to really have a public presence with the 1UP Show and all their podcasts, it's easy to remember the names of the women that used to work there. A vast majority of them no longer work in the games industry. A lot of that is due to issues with freelancing in this space, but you can bet your ass that harassment played a major part.

 

You cannot convince me that small-time ethical issues matter more than a culture that's exclusionary to the extreme.

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Quid pro quo journalism is completely unacceptable, especially if we ever want to be taken seriously as a medium at large.  I don't think that's the case here but if it is?  Yikes, that's bad.  Like, really really bad.  

I'm going to play devil's advocate (because it's how I contribute to discussions like this) and ask "What if this was the case".  Would it change your opinion if she did work for a big company?  Is her case different because she's indie and will impact a smaller audience?

 

Replying to this whole part of the discussion, not just you two.  I'm someone who cares deeply about media ethics.  I've been in personal arguments with someone who sat on the board of the Society of Professional Journalists before about how the SPJ handled the ethical failings of a high profile journalist (the board member was a professor of mine in school).   So I tend to take an extremely hard ass view on ethics in the media. 

 

That said, the culture of misogyny, hate and threat in the games industry trumps an ethics discussion in this case.  This case is not about ethics, it's about destroying a target some people have hated for awhile.  If you want an ethics discussion, I'd say talk about the way that the major gaming sites continue to foster the toxic cesspool that is our greater community.  For some sites, their payroll depends on not alienating people who would do others in the community harm.  That's a hell of a lot more important than the sex life of any person in the industry. 

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Sorry, but I don't care how many journalists you may or may not have slept with; no combination of sexual activity and status should result in someone's personal life being put out for all to gawk at. These supposed ethical violations that has everyone so concerned honestly sound like bullshit to me. I'm sure that in the entire History of Journalism, sex has been used as a coercive tool, but not to such a degree that anyone needs to feel alarmed about. It's entirely different to use money to exploit a journalists favor or bribery than to use a personal relationship. One is an actual ethical issue, the other is salacious gossip. Continuing this discussion is just giving more fuel to idea that women (because let's be honest, it's usually women we imagine in this role) are master manipulators who use sex to control everyone around them. 

 

As an aside, infidelity is only relevant to the people directly involved. No one else but those people have right to cast any kind of moral judgement. 

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I'm with Jon (Edit: and Sarah) on this one. EVEN IF she cheated multiple times, and EVEN IF she used her sexuality to get favors from journalists, that doesn't really matter in the context of what's happening right now.

 

Let's try removing "gaming" and "the internet" from the situation, and imagine you're reading a newspaper article:

 

"A vengeful man has gathered hundreds of people to harass his ex-girlfriend, including calling her phone, threatening her, showing up at her home, publishing the contact information of her and her closest relatives and friends, her financial records, and taking over her place of work. They have also harrased her family and friends. The man claims that this is because of infidelity, including using sex to get favors at work."

 

If you read this, are you really concerned about what she did at her work? Or are you worried about her safety and hoping the people breaking the law are brought to justice?

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A person from the internet with the information leaked about her WENT TO HER HOUSE. They are using hacked passwords to ACCESS HER FINANCIAL INFORMATION.

 

This is not theoretical. And it recurs with enough frequency that this is not some nebulous threat - people use issues like ethics as a screen of legitimacy so that they can do despicable shit.

 

Recently someone asked, what happened to all the women who used to work at 1UP? Since 1UP was one of the first sites to really have a public presence with the 1UP Show and all their podcasts, it's easy to remember the names of the women that used to work there. A vast majority of them no longer work in the games industry. A lot of that is due to issues with freelancing in this space, but you can bet your ass that harassment played a major part.

 

You cannot convince me that small-time ethical issues matter more than a culture that's exclusionary to the extreme.

I think you're missing my point.  I believe that, obviously, the culture of misogyny is of course the main issue.  Anyone subjected to that kind of persecution is a victim no matter what.  Equally as obvious is that this entire debacle is fueled by the misogyny and whomever decided to lay these accusations at Quinn's feet did so simply to rile up mangamers. Sadly, the ruse worked, and it worked well.

 

However, bad journalism ethics is not mutually exclusive with the culture of misogyny.  I think the fact that we are discussing the issue at all is dumb because it implies that Quinn is guilty but yeah.  

 

tl;dr: blaaaaah

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If you want an ethics discussion, I'd say talk about the way that the major gaming sites continue to foster the toxic cesspool that is our greater community.  For some sites, their payroll depends on not alienating people who would do others in the community harm.  That's a hell of a lot more important than the sex life of any person in the industry. 

 

Yup.

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I guess what I'm arguing is that it must not be obvious to everyone that this is not a good faith attempt to ferret out bad journalist efforts. I mean, that Facebook post that Ben X reposted on the last page of this thread is evidence of that - she's basically saying, "well sure all this misogyny stuff is bad but let's take their 'core argument' seriously" which is fucking insane.

 

And the other half of my argument is that in the Maslow's Heirarchy of "what we need to make games be taken seriously", I think that addressing the toxic nature of misogyny is shelter and journalism ethics are self-actualization. They're just not comparable in terms of priority.

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While death threats are definitely out of line, professional ethics do matter a lot.  Companies and industries are propped up on a basis of trust.  Given that the games industry seems to have a deficit of trust in general, the accusations alone are bad, much less if they are true.  Also, I understand that you're struggling with this stuff but we have to be realistic too.  "assholes stomping on every non-white, non-CIS male out there?"  Real people DO get hurt and killed but somehow I doubt that video games are the cause of it.  Plus, that level of cynicism is a bit defeatist.  Feminism, gender, and many other issues are beginning to break into the main stream of video game culture and even culture at large.  We are making progress, it's just that progress will never be as fast as we'd like.  

 

Actually I think the point is that this specific case is a manifestation of bias against a certain people or type of media. Like Bjorn said, if this were actually a bigger question about ethics, the conversation would transcend constantly attacking Zoe Quinn specifically. The accusations of unethical behavior in journalism are there as an excuse to rant about the direction of the games industry or perceived nepotism or to push theories about a feminist cabal. Considering how fast this topic spread, it isn't this isolated case of potential conflict of interest that pushed the death threats and harassment, it was more likely an undercurrent of hate that ran for a while, except this time people are justifying it with an ethics argument.

 

Edit: yeah what Jon said, sorry if I'm just repeating things

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