Feminism

[Merus]

I am enjoying the prospect of internet belligerents filing FOIA requests on cases currently in progress, delivering not only evidence of harassment to the police, but a postal address.

[tegan]

Today, someone told me that a particular developer who has been named more than enough "sets feminism back centuries, especially in the video game industry"

 

 

how can something "especially" be set back centuries in a medium that's like fourty years old

 

 

Also, posting this here for people not reading the newest episode thread (because can you blame them?)

 

 

I don't wanna dredge up this topic of conversation again, but I saw a news article that directly ties into something I was saying earlier.

 

So judging by this recent sample, half of the viking remains we've been digging up have been female. We just always assumed they were male because they were buried with their weapons and never bothered to check.

[Bjorn]

The latest in terrible university behavior in regards to rape comes from my alma mater.  The whole thing is infuriating and (as the woman in the case says) the process of reporting the rape was more damaging and victimizing than the actual crime. The guy admitted he continued to have sex with her even after she told him to stop multiple times, but his lawyer later presented an argument that because she took her birth control pill that day, she was clearly going out with the intention to have sex.  WTF?!  The university decided that writing an essay would set the young man straight, but that community service was too "punitive" to use as punishment.  The police threatened to arrest her for underage drinking, while the prosecutor declined to press charges against the guy. 

[JonCole]

College seems so awful for women.

• Rape culture at peak saturation
• University bureaucracy/police means that trying to do anything about ^^^ is impossible
• Patriarchy drives you to humanities/arts majors
• Economic factors means that you don't actually get paid anything for degrees in anything but sciences

Ugh.

[James]

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Griddlelol]

College seems so awful for women.

• Patriarchy drives you to humanities/arts majors

 

In the UK that isn't true at least. I was a biochemistry "major" with organic chemistry "minor" and all my classes were about 50-50 gender split. The building I work in currently is again around 50-50 gender split. Even the group I work in is a 50-50 gender split (now after we hired someone new).

 

I'd also question whether it's true in the US too. Recent data points to ~50% of PhD graduates in sciences being women. Anecdotally, I've not noticed a gender bias in the papers I read from US based research groups (well, in first authorship, last authors are mostly male).

 

However, the Engineering department at my university is 90% male (and thus shares social events with the Nursing & Midwifery school which is 90% female). So clearly it's not perfect...

[theinternetftw]

This comment from an archeologist is worth reading from that article about Vikings.  It discusses the findings, making it clear that 50% of *settlers* were female, not 50% of vikings buried with weapons (though the point the findings were trying to make is that they are finding a significant number of women with those as well, if I've done my math right, a little under 20%).  It's a long comment, but his conclusion is so great I'll quote it in full:

 

 

"First, we're just talking about graves (because that's what survives for archaeologists to dig up). Just because a woman is buried in an apron, does not mean she wasn't a warrior before she died. There was no rule (as far as we know) that warriors had to be buried with their weapons. What if they wanted to leave them to their daughters instead? And who says a warrior woman can't wear a dress to her own funeral? There might be many warrior women who are invisible because they were buried in 'traditional' female outfits.

Second, we can't be sure that everyone buried with a weapon was a warrior. We find infants buried with weapons sometimes; they clearly weren't fighters (though perhaps they would have been had they grown up?). Weapons were powerful ritual objects with lots of magic and social power, and a woman might be buried with one for a reason other than fighting, such as her connection to the ruling family, ownership of land, or role as priestess or magical healer.

Third, we shouldn't rush to map our modern ideas of how gender *should have been* onto the past. We should study the past for what it is, whether that's good or bad. Archaeologists who ignored evidence that Viking women weren't all housewives caused great harm, but going to the other side and saying that men and women were equal on the Viking battlefield isn't really any better. It minimizes the reality of gender inequality that Viking women had to struggle against, much like the inequality faced by their modern counterparts."

[namman siggins]

College seems so awful for women.

• Rape culture at peak saturation
• University bureaucracy/police means that trying to do anything about ^^^ is impossible
• Patriarchy drives you to humanities/arts majors
• Economic factors means that you don't actually get paid anything for degrees in anything but sciences

Ugh.

When my ex was part of a mass visit to Sac State the tour guide said, " That beginning female college students had a 50% or so chance of getting raped," she was fucking gobsmacked when she heard this....

My friend Josh, during his big orientation was asked to look to people to his left and right and the guide said, "Chances are one of them will rape someone."

Fucking bloody hell.

[JonCole]

In the UK that isn't true at least. I was a biochemistry "major" with organic chemistry "minor" and all my classes were about 50-50 gender split. The building I work in currently is again around 50-50 gender split. Even the group I work in is a 50-50 gender split (now after we hired someone new).

 

I'd also question whether it's true in the US too. Recent data points to ~50% of PhD graduates in sciences being women. Anecdotally, I've not noticed a gender bias in the papers I read from US based research groups (well, in first authorship, last authors are mostly male).

 

However, the Engineering department at my university is 90% male (and thus shares social events with the Nursing & Midwifery school which is 90% female). So clearly it's not perfect...

 

Well, I kinda doubt that 50% of PhD in sciences is analogous to representation in undergrad. You really don't need a PhD or even a Masters in many sciences to net a job in many of the computer science and mechanical engineering companies I've researched in my college-going past, so I think the undergrad gender makeup and employment rate is more relevant to my broad point.

[Griddlelol]

Well, I kinda doubt that 50% of PhD in sciences is analogous to representation in undergrad. You really don't need a PhD or even a Masters in many sciences to net a job in many of the computer science and mechanical engineering companies I've researched in my college-going past, so I think the undergrad gender makeup and employment rate is more relevant to my broad point.

 

It's probably closer to analogous than you think. Although by the looks of things, it seems more women progress to graduate school (this doesn't specifying Masters, PhD, MD or Professional qualifications, nor graduation). 

It has little to do with employment rate though, I agree. I'd also argue that a BA or BSc is basically the same in the eyes of most employers (i.e. pretty much useless in comparison to actual experience), unless you're aiming for something relevant to your degree. 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/how-many-men-and-women-are-studying-at-my-university'>Interestingly, in the UK women are more educated than men

 

That doesn't comment on sciences vs humanities though.

 

I hope I'm not coming across as trying to defend women as having an "easy time" in college. The rape issue is incredibly important, and the stats on that are utterly disgusting. It's just I feel like I have to defend my profession and colleagues, since the whole gender split in sciences isn't terrible any more, at least not in comparison to 10 years ago.

[JonCole]

[Griddlelol]

When you organise it by potential wealth...then you sure have a point (which you even said was your initial point anyway). I was arguing about science in general, which I still think is a valid thing to consider. 

 

Edit: Also I did point out that the Engineering department was 90% male - most of those lucrative majors are off-shoots of Engineering.

 

Edit 2: I thought I'd look up some more lucrative degrees:

Accounting seems to be moving towards women.

Dentistry also has more young women, indicating a shift.

Law following the other two degrees, has more young women, although to a lesser degree, and unfortunately once in women don't seem to be allowed to progress as far as men.

Medicine is another. Although I can't find any nice data on this, only news paper articles.

Let's not forget Vets! which again is becoming more female dominated.

Finally, degree popularity by gender (scroll to the bottom to see undergrad). It's actually more similar than I expected. Although the sciences chosen by women are more of the "soft" sciences than those chosen by men.

[SecretAsianMan]

I can't speak for the pure sciences, but the engineering statistic seems about right from what I remember.  I recall one of my freshmen professors saying that there were more males named David than females in the entire freshmen class (myself among them).

[JonCole]

I'm not really arguing with you, I just think I was tying a moral issue with an economic issue and it wasn't doing the latter any favors. I don't think it's fair that women are societally encouraged to move toward fields where they make jack shit or away from the fields where real money is made. Whether or not women are well represented in some science fields is largely irrelevant to my actual point, I just said "sciences vs humanities" as a lazy shorthand. 

[Griddlelol]

I understand. It's a shorthand I react to because many of my colleagues that I respect and constantly ask for help or information from are women, and I see the classes that are not devoid of women. 

 

Being pushed into those types of jobs sucks, and I'm sure they earn less than the men in those jobs too. Anything I have to say on it is purely anecdotal, but all the women I was friends with in college have become teachers. Which I found a bit shocking, but it may have been that the only way to secure a job out of college is to jump into teaching, rather than do what I did, and spend months living like a bum looking for an opportunity. 

[Brannigan]

When my ex was part of a mass visit to Sac State the tour guide said, " That beginning female college students had a 50% or so chance of getting raped," she was fucking gobsmacked when she heard this....

My friend Josh, during his big orientation was asked to look to people to his left and right and the guide said, "Chances are one of them will rape someone."

Fucking bloody hell.

I actually go to Sac State... They started making students watch a series of videos with a test about sexual assault, what constitutes it etc. Huge emphasis on consent.

[namman siggins]

I actually go to Sac State... They started making students watch a series of videos with a test about sexual assault, what constitutes it etc. Huge emphasis on consent.

thats good.

Luckily none of my female friends have dealt with any of that.

[Bjorn]

On that KU article I linked earlier, I'm super disappointed that I'm reading about that on HuffPo and not my local paper, which as recently as a few years ago was heralded as one of the truly great small to mid-market daily papers.  

 

Also, I finally watched the latest Sarkeesian video over my lunch hour today, and it was really good.  Part way through she brought up Papa y Yo as an example of a game that deals with issues like abuse in an interesting and mature way.  I've wondered for awhile if there is a resource to find games that handle certain subjects well, like a list of feminist games or something.  Not even feminist games, but just games that manage to not be shitty about gender/sex.  Not every game on it would need to be perfect, as few things are, but at least be worthy of inclusion for meeting certain criteria. 

 

People do a really good job of criticizing games that handle these issues poorly, but I'm not sure we (the general gaming community that cares about this stuff) do a good enough job of promoting games that we think do the job well. 

[itsamoose]

 I've wondered for awhile if there is a resource to find games that handle certain subjects well, like a list of feminist games or something.  Not even feminist games, but just games that manage to not be shitty about gender/sex.  Not every game on it would need to be perfect, as few things are, but at least be worthy of inclusion for meeting certain criteria. 

 

I've been looking for something like this for a while with no real luck.  I run across an occasional article that highlights a specific game but as far as I can tell there isn't a collated list somewhere of games that handle mature subject matter maturely.

[Bjorn]

We could always register socialjusticewizard.com and make our own. 

[tegan]

I nominate that the Saints Row games be included with caveats. Those games are super weird, because you can play as an obese gender-neutral pansexual person of colour (like, any colour. Even metallic colours), but you still have the occasional GTA hookers.

[Brannigan]

In sr4 they try to call themselves out on their shit a bit too, though still plenty of boobies around.

[Merus]

So the latest tactic the 4chan babies have come up with is #NotYourShield - which is a hashtag they're using to claim they are various marginalised groups that journalists are using as a 'shield' to cover for their corruption.

[SecretAsianMan]

I nominate that the Saints Row games be included with caveats. Those games are super weird, because you can play as an obese gender-neutral pansexual person of colour (like, any colour. Even metallic colours), but you still have the occasional GTA hookers.

 

 

In sr4 they try to call themselves out on their shit a bit too, though still plenty of boobies around.

 

You do have to give the devs credit for admitting that Sarkeesian was right about their game.

[itsamoose]

You have got to be fucking kidding me.  Just the gall of this is overwhelming.