E3 2K11

[miffy495]

The story in Zelda is the same kind of draw as the story in Mario, as far as I'm concerned. I know what's going to happen, so whatever. For me it's about the dungeon design and the way that the work whatever new tech Nintendo has made into the game's new items. The touch stuff in the DS ones has been great, and the pointer and motion mechanics integrated into Twighlight Princess never felt out of place. That's the key, really. Mario and Zelda, for the last few iterations of both, have been about showing off what the latest Nintendo tech can do, but doing it within the confines of a real game and not feeling like that's the point of the game. Mario Galaxy is a very well polished platformer that happens to incorporate motion controls and pointer stuff, but those things feel like they're small parts of the game rather than why you're playing it. Same for Zelda, but replace platformer with 3rd person adventure/dungeon game. The N64 versions of these series were pretty much the first to prove that their respective genres were even viable in 3D. Wind Waker was saved mostly by its art style and atmosphere, but there's a good reason that people don't remember Mario Sunshine fondly. It was one of the few games in either series that didn't actually try something new and get it really right (even though it could be argued that the water pack was the try, but they really didn't pull it off so well).

Saying that it all boils down to the same shebang in every game is being massively unfair to the games, I think. The story is, sure, but who plays these games for the story? Zelda's dungeons can be goddamned fiendish at times, and the atmosphere in some of them is almost suffocating. Playing one through for the second time just doesn't feel the same, as once you've solved the puzzles in it once you're just running through it for nostalgia. The changes in items and mechanics can make huge differences as well. The joy of playing a Mario game is seeing what whimsical new stuff they've come up with to have your portly cartoon plumber running through this time, not to finally rescue Peach. The new suits and abilities (the cloud suit from Galaxy 2 gave the level designers a lot of license to do some crazy shit) also play a big role in that.

I suppose your thing about them just putting a game out for "we have a game, give us money" could be true, but as long as they keep delivering the way they do with those games, I'll happily keep giving them money. None of them has ever felt like a cash in, regardless of whether or not they actually were made as one.

I hope that gives you a bit of an insight into why I love Nintendo stuff so much, Orvidos. I can see where you're coming from as an outsider, but I have to ask how much of any of these games you have actually played. Your arguments feel like they're coming from someone who expects the story to be the selling point for a Nintendo game rather than the mechanics, when this couldn't be further from the truth. Quite the opposite, in fact.

That said, back to E3. I just watched Nintendo's presser and holy shit am I stoked on everything. I am so happy to own a 3DS right now, and they didn't even mention Paper Mario in the conference (there's a trailer on the 3DS Eshop though, in 3D(deee... dee... dee...). Luigi's Mansion 2 makes me incredibly happy, as I was a big fan of the original despite the general response to it being meh. I'm a little bummed that the WiiU is all tech demos right now on Nintendo's end, but seeing stuff like Darksiders 2 announced for it was exciting. The system looks like it has amazing potential at least, and the fanboy centres of my brain are spazzing the fuck out over this. Excited! Cigol, I will join you in the dance of the happy nerd!

[SiN]

I could be entirely wrong on the Wii U, and I almost hope I will be, but no-one can deny by this point that Nintendo gets away with a metric ton of bullshit.

It's called "innovation".

Look, I don't know how the Wii U is going to turn out. But all in all, Nintendo have a proven track record of coming up with batshit insane ideas and then actually pulling it off.

Nintendo at E3 was a refreshing change from "oh, a man is shooting another man, how novel!"

[Orv]

I hope that gives you a bit of an insight into why I love Nintendo stuff so much, Orvidos. I can see where you're coming from as an outsider, but I have to ask how much of any of these games you have actually played. Your arguments feel like they're coming from someone who expects the story to be the selling point for a Nintendo game rather than the mechanics, when this couldn't be further from the truth. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I have. . .damn, I dunno, maybe 5 hours of Mario, 4 or 5 of Zelda? It's why I'm willing to be wrong about it, and why I'm thinking about playing them through emulation. I've never considered Zelda a mechanics game, and always an RPG. I can see where you're coming from having played a lot of roguelikes in recent days, so I'm going to give them a shot, but I make no promises.

(4/5 hours is probably going to get me a fair bit of mockery, but I've dismissed games considerably faster if they annoy/piss me off.)

[miffy495]

No, that's fair. It's the vibe I got from your post, so I figured you didn't have a bunch of experience with them. Honestly, I've never thought of the Zelda games as RPGs and it's seemed really weird whenever people referred to them as such. Sure, you get more HP and attack power as you go through the game, but so does Kratos in God of War and nobody mistakes that for an RPG. It's a game about going through dungeons, solving puzzles, and occasionally fighting monsters that aren't that challenging but can sometimes overwhelm you. First and foremost, you're exploring the worlds and dungeons of each one and solving puzzles within them. I guess you do that in RPGs too, but the way that you do it is so different from where I'm sitting that comparing them has always felt daft.

EDIT: Also, a word of warning. Nintendo games (no matter which ones) seem to start out thinking you're a complete idiot. If you get sick of games quickly, the heavy tutorialization of the first few hours of any first party Nintendo game will kill the fun for you. They usually pick up really well after a couple of hours and by the end become astounding (from my perspective, anyway), but prepare yourself for a painfully slow start.

[Sno]

I'd say five hours is a fair shot, and you shouldn't feel forced into giving a game you don't like another look, but if you really feel like giving that series another chance, i'd recommend A Link to the Past. It ages well, and it's not too much of a big time investment, some of the later games are easily 30-40 hours.

Anyways, I think Miffy is fairly spot on.

The Legend of Zelda series does have some pretty firm roots in japanese action RPG's, but Nintendo classifies those games as action-adventure games, and it's more accurate to what those games try to do. (Puzzle solving, really.) Zelda is about exploration and solving the challenges an environment has presented you with. I've always felt they're kind of akin to Metroid in that way, just with an additional layer of there being defined quests and an overworld with towns.

I do disagree with Miffy about the way the recent Zelda games have integrated the newer Nintendo control schemes. I've always felt that motion control was the worst thing about Twilight Princess, the gesture recognition is just so creaky and unreliable. (Somewhere out there is a rare alternate Gamecube version without any of the motion control, and that is probably awesome.)

I suppose your thing about them just putting a game out for "we have a game, give us money" could be true, but as long as they keep delivering the way they do with those games, I'll happily keep giving them money. None of them has ever felt like a cash in, regardless of whether or not they actually were made as one.

The point i would make, kind of one of the points i was trying to make earlier, is... just what publisher wouldn't take advantage of their flagship franchises like this?

I mean, these are businesses, but Nintendo treats its properties with a lot of care. Nintendo famously gives games however much development time they need, and they are always trying to do something meaningfully new and interesting within the frameworks that people expect. They're not just shitting games out year-to-year with minor iterative changes.

Hey, Mario has been around for over 30 years now and his face is all over a million damn games, but the crazy thing? There are only just over a dozen Super Mario games, and they're all really, really different from each other. Super Mario Bros is not Super Mario Bros 3 is not Super Mario 64 is not Super Mario Galaxy.

[Roderick]

To be fair, they DID license out Mario to a hundred awful sports games and other spin-offs. They've recently toned that down just a little, but it was bad enough that in my mind Mario is one of 'those' brands that just gets slapped onto everything to make a sale.

[shammack]

To be fair, they DID license out Mario to a hundred awful sports games and other spin-offs. They've recently toned that down just a little, but it was bad enough that in my mind Mario is one of 'those' brands that just gets slapped onto everything to make a sale.

Most of those games are actually good, though. I'll grant that there are a few more Mario Party games than anyone really needs, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss Mario Tennis, Golf, Strikers, etc. as "awful." Putting Mario in a sports game is a fairly reliable signifier that it's going to be a goofy, simple but fun take on that sport. It's not like they're saying, "hmm, how are we going to sell this piece of crap? Let's just slap a Mario on it."

[baconian]

I have. . .damn, I dunno, maybe 5 hours of Mario, 4 or 5 of Zelda? It's why I'm willing to be wrong about it, and why I'm thinking about playing them through emulation. I've never considered Zelda a mechanics game, and always an RPG. I can see where you're coming from having played a lot of roguelikes in recent days, so I'm going to give them a shot, but I make no promises.

(4/5 hours is probably going to get me a fair bit of mockery, but I've dismissed games considerably faster if they annoy/piss me off.)

Just don't use the emulator checkpoints dude. Use the in-game saves. You just wouldn't have as good an experience, I know this. The game balance gets competely thrown away if you don't retread your steps and you'll miss stuff.

My recommended order of playing zelda games is the order in which they were made. This is because somehow Miyamoto has managed to create a definable ouevre despite having to work through a multinational corporation to do his thing. Also, if you want to be convinced to like nintendo, try pikmin.

[subbes]

dammit where is pikmin 3

look

i'm so frustrated i have abandoned my shift key and punctuation

shigeru miyamoto you magnificent bastard where is pikmin 3

[Orv]

dammit where is pikmin 3

look

i'm so frustrated i have abandoned my shift key and punctuation

shigeru miyamoto you magnificent bastard where is pikmin 3

The Giantbomb Day 01 Livestream (that went for something like 5 hours D: ) said that at the Nintendo roundtable, Pikmin for Wii U was confirmed by the man himself.

[Kolzig]

Didn't Chris Remo confirm Shigsy promising Pikmin 3 for Wii years ago?

He just did a Twilight Princess/Shenmue with that and moved it to the next platform, which is totally ok for me.

[subbes]

At this point the way I feel about Pikmin 3 is analogous to the way y'all feel about BG&E2.

Also Shiggy mentioned P3 in a round-table last E3 in response to a reporter whose intern was begging him to ask - and all Shigs said was "Ha ha, ask me after I'm done with Skyward Sword" (not an actual quote). Shigs is q good at trolling Pikmin fans.

But I have faith it will come and it will be glorious.

Edited June 8, 2011 by subbes
I WANT TO BELIEVE

[twmac]

And Murdoc, thank the gods, I thought I was going insane. "Zelda has a rich, complex world that changes with every game!"

That sounds like exactly what people used to tell me about Final Fantasy games circa 2001.

[Orv]

That sounds like exactly what people used to tell me about Final Fantasy games circa 2001.

Also a lie!

At this point the way I feel about Pikmin 3 is analogous to the way y'all feel about BG&E2.

. . .

But I have faith it will come and it will be glorious.

The story (paraphrased) was that he started the round-table immediately by saying "Don't ask me about Pikmin." He then humbly thanked everyone for not asking about Pikmin (presumably at the end) and said "And Pikmin is coming to Wii U".

The Bombcast should be up in audio form by mid-afternoon, I imagine.

[Hermie]

Speaking of BG&E2, there's a quote floating around that it is now a "next generation of consoles title".

[elmuerte]

Speaking of BG&E2, there's a quote floating around that it is now a "next generation of consoles title".

no, it was not for this generation of consoles... thus... it must be a PC game

[Kolzig]

There was no Ace Attourney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth 2 on the Nintendo DS release lists for 2011 at E3.

Shall we go on a war with KonamiCAPCOM, toblix?

Ahh, someday I would like to own all the limited editions of all Gyakuten Kenji and Gyakuten Saiban series.

Well, at least the Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright is hopefully coming to US/EUR market for 3DS "someday".

Edited June 9, 2011 by Kolzig

[pabosher]

War with Capcom you mean, right?

[Kolzig]

Shit, yes Capcom! Not Konami. Konami is good! That was a mistake.

[Sno]

That sounds like exactly what people used to tell me about Final Fantasy games circa 2001.

Nobody here was even making that argument though, the Zelda games have never been about story.

[syntheticgerbil]

Saying that it all boils down to the same shebang in every game is being massively unfair to the games, I think. The story is, sure, but who plays these games for the story?

Kind of going off of this into a tangent on how I feel about game stories. Story complaints are always viable, but really I think about 90% of the games I play are not for the story. To me, most stories in games exist solely for nicely tying the game together and giving it a drive with a finished feel. For a game's story to be good and a drawing point to the game, it has to be damn engaging and have well rounded characters I care about. Hardly any game has this even if they are trying. Usually you either get dumb plots or overwritten messes of text, dialogue, and useless garbage.

Because the major drawing point on Zelda is the familiarity in the design and world, I find it weird for people to expect for a completely new tale or formula each game or for it to change so drastically. Traditionally in the 80s and 90s, game series were about more of the same but better and more interesting. This is still where Nintendo is coming from for almost all series and it's not necessarily wrong or bad.

So to me the drawing points of games consist of three different categories: design, art direction, and story. It's nearly impossible for any game to do all three greatly but that's never required for me to like a game. Any one category done well can get me to like the game, but the other two must be passable or a bit above average. Only if one category sucks, can the game be brought down.

So while possibly there are many adventure games with the best stories around in games, many of them have downright silly or stupid design or uninspired art (Sierra for the most part there). But then there's also adventures where you get more out of the humor and wacky puzzles than a story you actually care about and are engaged in and that's fine too.

So, in respects to the Zelda design like Miffy is saying here, it is the most important drawing point by far. This goes for almost any of the major Nintendo titles that weren't farmed out. HAL games are like this too. I couldn't really give a shitload of shit about Kirby saving rainbow ass world once again but I will have a fun time doing so. No one expects Kirby to stop sucking and blowing either.

Zelda game designs are slick and move in a very smooth pace. The design in almost all Zelda's keeps up the same rate of engagement where you finish one thing but started another thing inbetween that you are now driven to finish. Getting every new item is a prize as you take note of all of the curious places you didn't understand or couldn't fully explore in the game. Those are in addition to the dungeons which feature a bunch of puzzles themselves. The bosses are not there to be a hit fest and bullet hell type difficulty but to be a sort of puzzle in themselves to figure out each time what is the proper item to use, how to get to their weak spot, and what kind of patterns you have to keep up. The bosses usually start out ridiculously easy and then end up pretty tricky.

Majora's Mask has been the only Zelda game so far (Still need to play Twilight Princess and up) to add such an extra layer of complicated design and it seemed like many hated it for it. I agree to some point, it's kind of stressful and a lot to overcome, but then many liked it for the reason it was hated. Either way, Nintendo is probably not doing that again with Zelda and may tweak the design in some other way. They usually do each iteration and that's part of the excitement in addition to the elements that make you feel at home.

Then there's Zelda 1 and 2 for NES, which both kind of play like ass. But Nintendo is clearly way beyond the design pitfalls of those games.

I suppose your thing about them just putting a game out for "we have a game, give us money" could be true, but as long as they keep delivering the way they do with those games, I'll happily keep giving them money. None of them has ever felt like a cash in, regardless of whether or not they actually were made as one.

Also in full agreement with this part. Nintendo seems to really be cashing in when they farm out their stuff to third parties more than anything because those games can sometimes end up like garbage, but any of their first party games or subsidiary developed games by Intelligent Systems, Alphadream, and the like will have a a layer of polish and thought put into them that is well above most non cash-in titles from studios really trying let alone regular crap cash-in games like ones spun off from 3D talking animal movies.

So like this may be true to some extent:

Most of those games are actually good, though. I'll grant that there are a few more Mario Party games than anyone really needs, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss Mario Tennis, Golf, Strikers, etc. as "awful." Putting Mario in a sports game is a fairly reliable signifier that it's going to be a goofy, simple but fun take on that sport.

But I'd still check the developer first. Hudson Soft is kind of in the business of mediocre tie-in games, even with Bomberman.

I'm curious Orvidos, when you say you have put 4 or 5 hours in to Zelda, which one were you playing? Did I miss this somewhere?

Speaking of BG&E2, there's a quote floating around that it is now a "next generation of consoles title".

As much as I love Michel Ancel, this quote irked me. I'm just thinking, what next generation? How can anyone possibly keep making new systems so soon except for Nintendo who was sort of required to go HD at this point? I expect this current generation to be extremely long as I'm sure most hope.

Edited June 10, 2011 by syntheticgerbil

[Kolzig]

Yesterday I don't remember where, but I read a comment about BG&E2 from the developers, it might have been even Ancel himself saying that they have BG&E2 completely as a background project because they would like to release it on consoles, but Xbox360 and PS3 are not up to the task. In the bit I read it was said that they are designing it on a super high end PC and they can't continue until the consoles are on the same level as PC's these days.

I get that Ubi doesn't want to release it just as a PC game, but wouldn't that be awesome?

Kind of funny that Carmack was saying similar stuff about current consoles sucking compared to high end PC right now.

http://www.computerandvideo games.com/306236/news/id-softwares-john-carmack-20-minute-video-interview/

Carmack dev PC is really mindblowing:

Processor: 2 x 6 core hyperthreaded Xeon (all together 2x6x2=24 threads)

Memory: 24 gigs

Harddrive: 500gb SSD

[Roderick]

Taking a small sidenote, I'm completely rooting for a 3DS Majora's Mask remake, ESPECIALLY if they tweak the game a little bit (just a little bit) to be a bit more forgiving. There are challenges and bosses in that game that are spiritbreakingly difficult (that stupid fish boss most notably), but otherwise the game is so gorgeous in its design. There's a tension to the game that few others have, a sort of maniacal quality pervading a world on the brink of moon-brought doom.

According to Carmack, people will die.

[Orv]

I'm curious Orvidos, when you say you have put 4 or 5 hours in to Zelda, which one were you playing? Did I miss this somewhere?

I didn't say. But it was Ocarina, which I'm now currently 9 hours into on an emulator. I'm not really sure how I feel about it yet.

[Lu]

I expect this current generation to be extremely long as I'm sure most hope.

Man, I don't hope this at all. If I had my way, then PS4 and the next Xbox would be out by 2012.