toblix

BioShock Infinite

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I'd guess it's because you're still under the impression that, unlike in the real world, there are predominantly normal-looking women in video games. Because you haven't really thought about it, we're all acting crazy and irrational and seeing things that aren't there, and that's amazing bait.

A lot of the problems with this topic is that we're pointing out a hole and that looks to the untrained eye a lot like something that isn't there.

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http://www.vg247.com/2012/12/12/the-last-of-us-acting-out-the-end-of-the-world/

There have been some concerns over box-art recently – including Ken Levine’s admission that the BioShock Infinite cover has been engineered to target ‘frat boys’ – so I asked the group if they had any suggestions as to why we see so few females on game covers – aside from stereotypical imagery, of course.

Johnson suggested: “I feel like they don’t put women on the covers because they’re afraid that it won’t sell. It’s all gamers really know – and I don’t want to be sexist by any means – but I get the feeling, generally, that they think game’s won’t sell as well with a woman on the cover, compared to some badass dude on the front.”

“I agree with what Ashley said,” Druckmann added. “I believe there’s a misconception that if you put a girl or a woman on the cover, the game will sell less. I know I’ve been in discussions where we’ve been asked to push Ellie to the back and everyone at Naughty Dog just flat-out refused.

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I have no idea why marketers continue to believe that the presence of a non-stereotypical woman in a game/movie/book's marketing will always mean that thing will sell less. There are so many examples where the exact opposite has happened (most recently with the Hunger Games movie: female lead character who was all over the marketing images, and they movie still did amazingly well with the young male demographic).

At this point, I think most people are just holding up the 'things don't sell well if there are women in it,' as an excuse to not make more of an effort to include a different perspective in their game/movie/book's marketing or development. It just reeks of laziness and close-mindedness.

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Because you haven't really thought about it

No, that's not it. Sorry, I have thought about it. A lot.

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I never really thought it was bad. I see women dressed in worse shit every day I walk to work, if it's warm enough. Although, I guess they aren't wearing corsets, which would definitely be considered uncomfortable, these days.

I was always more captivatedslashrepulsed by her weird-ass face, although I did eventually get used to it, and... then they changed it.

Woah. Man, that's a weird attitude on display. You think that because we think that women in video games are poorly represented that we think women in REAL LIFE should be forced to dress to our tastes, too?? What a woman chooses to wear is her own business! Same for men. (Interesting choice of words, btw -- "worse"?) On the other-hand, the fact that 99% of women portrayed in video games are depersonalized sexual objects for the male gaze is something that we all have a say in. (Don't you see any problems with the images on the previous page?)

Here's Elizabeth in BioShock Infinite. What a surprise! She's got a huge cleavage on display. I wonder how the developers came up with that idea for a female video game character?

screenshot_256682_thumb_wide620.jpg

Here's the same image in real life... Yep, that's exactly how all my work colleagues dress, too.

Elizabethbioshockinfinite2.jpg

You know what'd be nice, for once, is to have a female character in a game that a) Didn't need saving and B) Wasn't dressed like a teenager's wet dream.

JUST ONCE!

Although to be honest, I'm amazed this even needs to be explained :-/

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No, that's not it. Sorry, I have thought about it. A lot.

So explain why you think BioShock Infinite's portrayal of women differs from the other examples that have been posted.

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I never really thought it was bad. I see women dressed in worse shit every day I walk to work, if it's warm enough. Although, I guess they aren't wearing corsets, which would definitely be considered uncomfortable, these days.

I think the point is that women on the way to work, being actual, real-life women, can dress any way they want, while Elizabeth only dresses that way because she was consciously designed and approved this way, presumably because it's hawt..

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You think that because we think that women in video games are poorly represented that women in REAL LIFE should be forced to dress how we think, too??

Wh...what the fuck.

I can't fucking do this. Whatever. I'm out this ish. Toodles.

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Wh...what the fuck.

I can't fucking do this. Whatever. I'm out this ish. Toodles.

To explain myself further: You appear to be saying, "I see women dressed like this in real life, so why shouldn't they dress like this in video games?", (apparently) without realising you're implying that those of us who are offended by Elizabeth's portrayal must therefore be offended by how women dress in real life. (Indeed, why else bring it up?) To put it another way: The issue of how any real-life woman chooses to dress is completely irrelevant and should never have even been brought up in the first place.

Edit: I've slightly reworded the sentence you quoted to clarify what I meant.

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And then, one poorly worded phrase from ThunderPeel scared Twig off forever, and we never had to hear his defenses of overly sexualized video game character costumes again. The end.

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And then, one poorly worded phrase from ThunderPeel scared Twig off forever, and we never had to hear his defenses of overly sexualized video game character costumes again. The end.

Apparently so, but we can sure that Twig has thought about it. A lot.

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http://irrationalgam...m/insider/poll/

Some of those alternative covers are gorgeous! I hope the Bioshock Infinite is just a placeholder, though.

Interestingly, the one I initially hated the most, but then decided was the best, is winning by quite a way! I do wish they'd gone for Design #3 for the "mainstream choice". It looks better with Elizabeth in the background if you ask me.

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Interestingly, the one I initially hated the most, but then decided was the best, is winning by quite a way! I do wish they'd gone for Design #3 for the "mainstream choice". It looks better with Elizabeth in the background if you ask me.

It's just frustrating that Irrational feels obligated to do something like this poll in the first place. Even though I think the original box art design they came up with for the game is really lame, I don't think it warrants caving to fan pressure; it just sets a bad precedent.

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Why does the size of Elizabeth's head and facial features slightly warp from every concept art portrayal? I mean I know why, different artists and all, but after they kept changing her in game model, now I'm fixated on the 2D art as well.

Also who on earth would pick Design #1? You can tell they just took random character production art and hastily put it on a blank background. There's almost no thought in composition there whatsoever.

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It's just frustrating that Irrational feels obligated to do something like this poll in the first place. Even though I think the original box art design they came up with for the game is really lame, I don't think it warrants caving to fan pressure; it just sets a bad precedent.

On the one hand I agree, because I don't think fans tend to have very good taste. #1 for example is a pretty dull looking cover and that's winning. On the other hand, it's purely fan service anyway as they're only giving you the option to decide what goes on the back of the cover.

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And then, one poorly worded phrase from ThunderPeel scared Twig off forever, and we never had to hear his defenses of overly sexualized video game character costumes again. The end.

I really can't see how Twig's: "I didn't realize this was a big deal." could be seen as a defense of overly sexualized video game character costumes. For what it's worth, I don't really see the big deal, either. Of course, I get that female video game characters have a strong tendency to be over sexualized, but I don't think that necessarily means that every instance of cleavage means that it's some recreation of a teenager's wet dream.

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Yes, I'm sure this instance of cleavage is actually totally thematically appropriate and not a fat load of pandering to the male gaze, even though from what I understand, period appropriate clothing didn't show off tits like that and even though she looks ridiculous with her boobs poking out like that.

And youmeyou, how can you say #1 is dull looking? It's never dull to be looking at some sweet tits! Am I right, guys?

edit: I just voted and unless the poll is broken on my computer, it shows #4 as in the lead by a wide margin, followed by my favorite, #6. 4 is a neat sketch but I feel like it doesn't quite nail the woodcut sort of aesthetic (or whatever that kind of illustration is called that was big back then) they were going for - it looks too much like a quick sketch in some places, particularly in the crosshatching on the wings, which I think would look better as a hyperdetailed, more regular crosshatching that I think I recall seeing in those sorts of pictures.

edit #2: like, see how the lines on this cop are a little more regular and a little less sketchy looking? Maybe I'm being overly picky.

4976.preview.jpg

edit #3: more examples.

ripley316.jpg

ripley66.jpg

4977.preview.jpg

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In all honesty most of these covers look like mock-ups quickly done so Ken could ride the PR wave all this cover controversy is generating. None of them look particularly finished or well thought out.

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I hate the first cover, Elizabeth looks like she's ~10 years old.

Here's Elizabeth in BioShock Infinite. What a surprise! She's got a huge cleavage on display. I wonder how the developers came up with that idea for a female video game character?

The one thing I will say about this is they probably decided they wanted to have her wear a corset, which if you're going for a steam punk aesthetic is not unreasonable. Once you have someone wearing a corset the cleavage is basically going to happen. There isn't really any way to say that without sounding like I'm trying to defend women being sexualized in games, which I'm not, but while I find pretty much every other woman in games/comics/whatever to looks pretty ridiculous, I didn't and don't have a problem with Elizabeth. She might not look like people at your work, but as she looks pretty close to how most people at steam punk conventions dress (I've been to one and it was basically all dudes in top hats with monocles and women in mostly corsets and some huge Victorian dresses, which granted they could have done for her instead.) Again, not trying to sound like I'm defending women being sexualized in games, but I probably will as it's really hard not to.

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Maybe you'd prefer #6, where she looks 16, or #'s 3 or 5, where she's... older. Maybe they hired the cosplayer so they could settle what the hell Elizabeth is supposed to look like.

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And youmeyou, how can you say #1 is dull looking? It's never dull to be looking at some sweet tits! Am I right, guys?
Why are you being so aggressive? I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion about this. I agree with you on most of these issues, I just felt that the levels of reaction were surprising. You're arguing against people that don't even exist in this discussion. I don't see how: "I don't see the big deal." gets put on the same level as: "Titties! Fuck yeah!"
Yes, I'm sure this instance of cleavage is actually totally thematically appropriate and not a fat load of pandering to the male gaze, even though from what I understand, period appropriate clothing didn't show off tits like that and even though she looks ridiculous with her boobs poking out like that.
I wasn't specifically saying that this case wasn't "a fat load of pandering to the male gaze". It likely is! However, from my perspective, I just didn't it as being that big of a deal.

I also don't think that just covering her up does anything to solve the larger problem of poorly developed female characters in video games. That's likely a separate discussion that I fear getting into, though.

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For what it's worth, I know some serious steampunk fans — girls who dress up for conventions and the lot — and what they choose to wear is pretty much exactly along the lines of how BioShock's character is depicted.

Me? I just don't see the problem. Are lots of girls up in arms about this or something? I'm surprised it's even spawned so much discussion in a world where sexualising women in entertainment is kind of normal and not particularly resented by actual women from what I can tell. Lots of women actually like looking sexy and aren't offended because some tit is on show.

Yes there are some retarded examples like that fighting game posted earlier but you get that kind of shit in literally every other medium too.

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Me? I just don't see the problem. Are lots of girls up in arms about this or something? I'm surprised it's even spawned so much discussion in a world where sexualising women in entertainment is kind of normal and not particularly resented by actual women from what I can tell. Lots of women actually like looking sexy and aren't offended because some tit is on show.

Dressing to feel attractive and being sexualized to appeal to a very specific segment of the population are two completely different things.

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