BioShock Infinite

[vimes]

I don't think Alyx Vance AI was particularly impressive - it was nearly entirely scripted. The real breakthroughs came in the voice acting, the majority of the writing (what I remember most is how her reactions were particularly underplayed) and, more importantly, the work on her facial expressions which was incredible and remains so to this day.

Anyway, I want more Video game characters that could be played by Kathy Bates. Though that also holds true for movies

[Ben X]

Also that she was independent and capable but occasionally vulnerable, slim rather than curvy (and so more a B-cup than an E-cup), didn't wear revealing clothes and was recognisably mixed-race.

[melmer]

A top 10 video game asses list and not a mention of Sean, jake or Chris? You guys were robbed! x

[ThunderPeel2001]

Also that she was independent and capable but occasionally vulnerable, slim rather than curvy (and so more a B-cup than an E-cup), didn't wear revealing clothes and was recognisably mixed-race.

No wonder she wasn't featured in "Gaming's Best Asses".

[Ben X]

Yeah, flat as a board she was.

[toblix]

God damn it.

[mikemariano]

But that were to happen, and mainstream media was finally able to admit that women have different modes besides sexy and even more sexy, then we'd miss out on totally awesome stuff like this:

http://www.complex.c...in-video-games/

[Argobot]

Ah my thought process behind getting this joke was amazing.

[Sno]

Also that she was independent and capable but occasionally vulnerable, slim rather than curvy (and so more a B-cup than an E-cup), didn't wear revealing clothes and was recognisably mixed-race.

Independent isn't what i'd call it when she spends most of those three games fawning over Gordon for no particular reason in a completely one-sided relationship.

There is no character arc there, she starts out way into Gordon and closes out the third game still way into Gordon, and never inbetween are you given any indication why.

Alyx Vance is not a strong female character, she is nerd bait.

[vimes]

I should probably replay the HL² games because, in my mind's eye, Alyx never really showed any romantic feelings toward Gordon. Sure, she's written and directed so that I find her attractive, witty and charming - so that I care for her - but I remember the emotional focus of to be on her relationship with her father.

As far as Gordon is concerned, her initial curiosity develops into camaraderie and friendship through 'adventures' that make them owe each other a lot; but I never felt like it went beyond that. All the romantic hints, came from her father teasing her which again put the focus on that relationship rather than the other.

So yeah, she probably isn't a complex, layered character, but I wouldn't say she's nerd bait either

[TychoCelchuuu]

She's nerd bait to the max, and it's the worst in Episode 2, where Valve found during focus testing that if Alyx made fun of Gordon Freeman or did anything other than fawn over the player and constantly reinforce the bullshit macho power fantasy that 99% of FPS games are, players would get frustrated at her and label her naggy and annoying, because women with personalities other than "enamored of you" won't fly in video games. Unfortunately I can't find the interview that talked about this, but it totally happened.

edit: I realize now why perhaps I've been googling to try to find this article for 10 minutes with no luck - the "we turned Alyx into literally nothing but an ass-kisser" thing I'm thinking of might be in the commentary from Episode 1, actually. Although I could've sworn at some other point Valve talked about Episode 2 where they took out any hint of Alyx making fun of the player's driving ability when they crashed the car or anything like that.

[jeremywc]

Although I could've sworn at some other point Valve talked about Episode 2 where they took out any hint of Alyx making fun of the player's driving ability when they crashed the car or anything like that.

Not to discredit your point, but that would probably piss me off whether it was a female or male character. Driving around in shooters is usually a sloppy affair anyway, I don't know that I'd want to hear back seat driving while I was getting shot at or whatever.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Well I mean it wasn't just the car, it was anything Alyx said that suggested that you were doing anything other than being perfect. And to be fair I can imagine people getting mad at that no matter what the gender of the NPC that criticizes you, but Alyx was a bare midriff and a giant bust away from being everything wrong with female video game characters even before Episodes 1 and 2.

[Thrik]

The argument that Alyx was a nerd fantasy object just comes across as bizarre to me and doesn't gel with my experience of Half-Life 2 in the slightest.

Alyx might have been somewhat fond of Gordon, so what? Is that not allowed now either? But I agree with the above poster, not once did it really feel like a romantic/sexual thing; more of a brother/sister thing than anything, and I suspect that was intentional. Valve was trying to create something of a bond between the two characters, so during the scenes where she faces serious peril it actually means something. It worked.

I understand the notion that Alyx was dialled back so she wasn't too irritating, but that happens with any sidekick of any gender in any medium ever. Fiction is meant to be fun and enjoyable, not full of the grating arseholes we have to tolerate in real life. A writer has to find the right balance between a character having a little fire in their belly and being an annoying douche. To use the above example, being reminded that I've fucked up when I drive into something whether it's by an NPC or the game itself isn't something I appreciate or need and it's nothing to do with some kind of macho fantasy bollocks — it's just irritating.

There've also been many times where NPCs have harassed me into hurrying up because I want to explore the area a little first or whatever, and that too pisses me off. Yes if I were adventuring with some dude or girl in real life while surrounded by hostiles I can imagine they would be a bit 'WTF?' if I wanted to spend a few minutes dicking around, but this is a game and it's not appreciated.

I thought Valve accomplished something great with Alyx. She certainly was vulnerable at times, and there may have been hints that she had a thing for Gordon that I'm forgetting. But that is totally fine, there's nothing wrong with fictional characters being... well, human. If we start getting so obsessed with not playing to stereotypes or expectations that we actually eradicate what games have done right in terms of female characters too then we're going to end up in a pretty pointless place.

[Merus]

I think I'd be more inclined to follow people quickly if games weren't so fond of hiding collectible items you can only find by ignoring the impetus of the scenario and wandering into some obscure corner somewhere.

[castorp]

Is that not allowed now either?

I'm glad someone has the guts to stand up and question the P(olitical)C(orrectness)-society of feminazis and their battle against fun.

I liked Alyx. I think the 'one-sidedness' of their relationship has rather to do with Valves decision to make Gordon the silent protagonist. And her role in the game is to have a relationship with the player, but I didn't see it as very romantic either - rather a care-about, friendship thing, a vessel for positive feedback and strong ties to the narrative. So maybe more a player-bait or human-bait, than (male) nerd-bait, and the way it is executed (the way she is portrayed, as Ben pointed out) makes it pretty good in my eyes (even though the outline is the usual male-female-dynamic).

Mh, not sure, the set-up does seem suspicious, with her (only? - I don't remember her driving the narrative, ah, yeah, just when she needed to be saved) purpose being the positive feedback for the (in the mind of the creators probably male and straight) player. What do other people think?

The thing about toning her down sounds to me rather like Valve's practice of over-focus-testing their stuff and tuning it to the point of no conceivable edges then sexism on their part. But yeah, maybe their focus-groups wouldn't have had a problem with a male sidekick making light fun of the player and they shouldn't have budged, who knows, grey stuff.

[Argobot]

I'm glad someone has the guts to stand up and question the P(olitical)C(orrectness)-society of feminazis and their battle against fun.

I liked Alyx. I think the 'one-sidedness' of their relationship has rather to do with Valves decision to make Gordon the silent protagonist. And her role in the game is to have a relationship with the player, but I didn't see it as very romantic either - rather a care-about, friendship thing, a vessel for positive feedback and strong ties to the narrative. So maybe more a player-bait or human-bait, than (male) nerd-bait, and the way it is executed (the way she is portrayed, as Ben pointed out) makes it pretty good in my eyes (even though the outline is the usual male-female-dynamic).

Mh, not sure, the set-up does seem suspicious, with her (only? - I don't remember her driving the narrative, ah, yeah, just when she needed to be saved) purpose being the positive feedback for the (in the mind of the creators probably male and straight) player. What do other people think?

The thing about toning her down sounds to me rather like Valve's practice of over-focus-testing their stuff and tuning it to the point of no conceivable edges then sexism on their part. But yeah, maybe their focus-groups wouldn't have had a problem with a male sidekick making light fun of the player and they shouldn't have budged, who knows, grey stuff.

I'm glad someone has the guts to stand up and question the P(olitical)C(orrectness)-society of feminazis and their battle against fun.

Personally I don't have an opinion on the Alyx character because I don't remember enough of HL2 to make a convincing argument one way or another. If some people are displeased with her representation and can back that up with examples, fine. If other people see no problem with how she was portrayed, also, fine, as long as they can support their opinions.

Sexism as a concept is often hard to define, it's one of those 'I know it when I see it' situations. Something that I find sexist might not bother other people, and I'm always willing to have a discussion. But when the specter of sexism is raised and your reaction is to immediately reference feminazis and their mission to eradicate all fun, then you're destroying any chance of having a civil conversation.

[toblix]

So...

BioShock Infinite ending will be "like nothing you've experienced in a video game before"

Anyone up for some speculation? I bet the game will use a webcam or some web service to get a picture of you, and in then ending you have a child with Elizabeth and the baby has your face.

[castorp]

But when the specter of sexism is raised and your reaction is to immediately reference feminazis and their mission to eradicate all fun, then you're destroying any chance of having a civil conversation.

I totally agree. My comment was rather an exaggeration of how a read "Is that not allowed now either?", which for me is an expression of a certain attitude towards feminism or discussions thereof I find very aggravating. But instead of formulating that in a proper or civil way I took the snarky route - well thank you for drawing attention to that.

[Argobot]

Whoops, my mistake. Apologies all around.

[TychoCelchuuu]

So...

BioShock Infinite ending will be "like nothing you've experienced in a video game before"

Anyone up for some speculation? I bet the game will use a webcam or some web service to get a picture of you, and in then ending you have a child with Elizabeth and the baby has your face.

It will transition seamlessly into an online store where you can preorder the sequel.

[ThunderPeel2001]

The game will automatically purchase all DLC for you without your permission.

[TychoCelchuuu]

It dumps you into the middle of Peter Molyneux's cube.

[Lu]

"It will be life-changing" Welcome to Mr. Molyneux's LAWNMOWER MAN.

[Thrik]

It dumps you into the middle of Peter Molyneux's cube.