Thi4f

[brkl]

Does it matter what they call it to sell it? Considering the options given to players, it seems like you could make this more of an immersive sim than Dishonored. That game is more about just zapping around the place like a god.

[Salacious Snake]

It may be too facile an answer, but maybe they didn't have a firm enough idea of which kind of game it should be. Looking at the weird eleventh hour compromises they made to appease us old people with the UI and such would suggest a lack of central vision driving the project.

[sclpls]

Does it matter what they call it to sell it? Considering the options given to players, it seems like you could make this more of an immersive sim than Dishonored. That game is more about just zapping around the place like a god.

 

No, you can't. It doesn't matter how you configure the options in the game to make it more difficult, it doesn't change the fact that you can only place rope arrows where the developers have designated, you can only jump where the developers have designated you can jump, and you can only climb walls where the developers have designated where you can climb walls.

 

Dishonored may not be a brilliant stealth game (it is so not that!), and it may occasionally stray from the path of immersive sims, but it definitely makes an admirable effort to let players use all the tools given in any way they see fit. Based on everything I've read, both positive and negative, whatever qualities this new Thief game might have it surely does not have that.

[kaputt]

I've played about 5 hours of this game, and I actually like it. It's a good game, I think that maybe the press was a bit harsh on this one, specially if you consider the traditional gaming review scale.

I like that it is a Stealth game, you can't play it in any other way. If you get spotted by the guards and they get reinforcements, you're pretty much doomed. I think that makes sense, because you're some kind of super powerful master thief that can be extremely silent, in a way that no one notices you even if you're extremely close to them, but you're still just a thief, not a warrior or something. It's a way of balancing the game.

Also, as the game progressed I noticed some alternative paths to complete the missions. So, despite being condensed in close environments, I don't think that the game is too closed in the ways you can complete it.

One big problem is the execution: the engine could surely be better, it's not a good option for an open game. To avoid streaming, they put some wall and, to go through it, you have to do a QTE to pass them just to make time for the engine load the content. Sometimes, even this QTEs aren't enough, it needs a loading screen. And some of the walls are weird, just a bunch of barrels and wood, it doesn't even seem like you can go through it.

I think a better engine for the game could increase the freedom of how you interact with the environment. The lack of a dedicated jump button is really disappointing, and I think it only exists because the game can't create a map big enough for you to go anywhere. This would really improve the game.

I've only played the prologue so far, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't mind the random conversations, but the way the audio is mixed for them is really weird. It's like they really didn't want you to miss them. Two people talking in the street below you a block away sound like they are talking in your ear. It's very different than Dishonored or Arkham City, for example.

Yeah, that's true, the sound in this game is a bit off. Sometimes, for example, I can hear my own footsteps too loud but can't hear the ones from the guards.

[filk]

I finished mission 1. Does anyone know what's up with this bank heist? It's on the map right away, and I'm working on it now, but I don't remember hearing about it at all. That said, my girlfriend was talking to me a bit during the Besso cutscene so it's possible I missed everything.

 

It's soooo much harder than mission 1. I'm not sure how I'm going to get it all in one go with all my modifiers on.

[brkl]

You got it for pre-ordering.

[Faegbeard]

This game is good in that it made me replay the first two Thief games.

 

I can't speak for the quality of Thi4f itself, however, as I haven't played it.

[kaputt]

I finished mission 1. Does anyone know what's up with this bank heist? It's on the map right away, and I'm working on it now, but I don't remember hearing about it at all. That said, my girlfriend was talking to me a bit during the Besso cutscene so it's possible I missed everything.

It's soooo much harder than mission 1. I'm not sure how I'm going to get it all in one go with all my modifiers on.

Bank heist... I honestly can't remember. Are you in the first mission after the tutorial, or in the chapter 2?

If it's chapter 2:

If I remember what I had to do in that mission was steal a ring from a dead person, so it was in some kind of morgue or something.

Edit: Oh, it's a preorder bonus. I guess the AMD keys weren't preorder keys then.

[brkl]

As I said, you get it for pre-ordering. I don't have the game, but that's what Steam told me.

[filk]

As I said, you get it for pre-ordering. I don't have the game, but that's what Steam told me.

Ah, wacky. That probably explains the big difficulty jump. I guess by the time I finish it, I'll be better at the game.

[kaputt]

The dialogue and the story in this game just came to a level that... I can't even... So terrible.

And it seems that the writer wanted David Caruso to take the role of Garret.

[Granny Dragon]

My wife is in Germany over the weekend, so I am spending it student bachelor stype watching Russia carry out a coup and playing the new Thief. The former is scary. I recommend RT.com to get some extra, though extremely partisan, news.

The latter is enjoyable, though it is clear that this is not the Thief that fans wanted. I am a fan. The first Thief is incredible with regards to gameplay and setting, including its mythology and attention to detail. The second improves the gameplay, but doesn't feel as strong in the fiction department. The third Thief looks great for its time, especially with fan-made textures, has an interesting fiction, but lacking gameplay mechanics.

The fourth Thief takes the gameplay further into shallowness. At best, the level design is on par with Deadly Shadows. Levels feel like broad, segmented corridors. Broad because there are still several ways to proceed, segmented because there are several barriers that separate one section from another, with no way of going back. This may have been done to make orientation easier, and it is true that it is very hard to get lost. However, to me orientation also means that I get a sense of understanding a place, which is something the level design makes very difficult. The above mentioned corridors are winding, locations do not open up to me. The result is that I don't see the logic of a place. I don't see the relationship between exteriors and interiors. I don't have the feeling for where I am inside a compound.

Context sensitive actions increase my confusion. You can only jump where the game thinks it makes sense; same thing with climbing. Of course this means that of all your actions, the proportion of actions meaningful to the "mission" is higher than in previous games. However, I often feel that I have to guess what the designers were thinking. This too hurts the sense of being in a credible space since so much of the visual and geometric detail is mechanically irrelevant and inapproachable.

The visuals are strong! The shadows and the mist work very well, and being able to see Garrett's hands makes the act of taking items, opening chests etc. more gratifying. However, I miss the sense of mystery in the world. The City is, even more than in Thief 2, a very mundane place. Buildings are old, but they have no history. Most striking is the lack of religious or mythological symbols so far: no hammers, no cogs, no pagan eyes and no equivalent. This is very unusual for a Thief game.

I cannot say much about the plot. I was surprised not to see cutscenes in the classic Thief style. Instead, we get "cinematic" in-engine stuff that comes across as very bland. The writing is not strong, but after the trailers I expected it to be much worse. Garrett does have a credible relationship with some characters. I trust kaputt and can imagine that it will get worse.

It is a functioning stealth game. You observe stupid guards while planning the next step, walk or dash from shadow to shadow and, while the lack of exploration never makes me feel that I am "robbing a place blind", steal a lot of stuff, including many unique items. The tools make sense within the mechanics. I am enjoying myself. But there so much wasted potential.

[Nachimir]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but are those NPC barks intentionally ridiculous?

Sophie Houlden wrote an excellent tiny essay on this sort of AI behaviour the other day:

http://pastebin.com/0YYk7VS2

The crux of it is that once, it was a sophisticated way for a game AI to behave, but now, it's a convention by which the AI announces "I HAVE DETECTED YOUR PRESENCE AND NOW I AM TRYING TO FIND YOU".

[mikemariano]

Sophie Houlden wrote an excellent tiny essay on this sort of AI behaviour the other day:

http://pastebin.com/0YYk7VS2

 

 

What an insulting, ageist essay.  For those of us who have been playing these games almost exclusively since 1998, that's really the way we talk.  I announce everything I do out loud and expect to die some day at the hands of Solid Snake.

[SilentBtAmazing]

What an insulting, ageist essay. For those of us who have been playing these games almost exclusively since 1998, that's really the way we talk. I announce everything I do out loud and expect to die some day at the hands of Solid Snake.

+1 I also announce my state at all times

Well, on second thought, only during sex.

[Frenetic Pony]

I think the real problem with all this is that for ages now the only way a stealth game works is with a hundred guards, one in every damned room. Because the AI is bad, previously, even with the 360/Ps3, by limited hardware the only way to make anything challenging is to have an absolutely absurd number of guards.

 

Guards that will announce loudly to no one if they spot anything at all, guards that may or may not alert every guard in the vicinity or even level, guards that barely notice that "huh, who turned out that light?" Guards that don't notice at all that the valuable object that was just there a moment ago is now gone, and gee where'd Tom go? He was patrolling back and forth same as me and I saw him like clockwork every 45 seconds, but now he's not there.

 

These are the guards that are in every room, every hallway, ever building. The contigent of a small, braindead army used to guard any video game valuable object whatsoever. But now, well we've got 8 CPU cores, 8 gigs of RAM, and enough GPU power to render a horse. I'm sure some of that could be used for vastly improved AI, maybe where instead of there being a million idiots there could be a handful of intelligent guards that alert each other if a light goes out, notice if a thing is stolen or a door left open, and can maybe see beyond 10 feet in front of themselves.

[melmer]

I started this today, played the first 20minutes.... Wow what a stinker.

I wasn't expecting much, but jeez. The main draw for me going in was the games looks, I wanted a super pretty game to play on my PS4 but it's not particularly attractive. Those outfits the thief's are wearing 8| I'm sure the concept art looked cool, but stylised sketches of dark sleek figures covered in belts just doesn't work when translated to a 3D models in a realistic inhabited game world, they just look kinda ridiculous

[filk]

I wasn't expecting much, but jeez. The main draw for me going in was the games looks, I wanted a super pretty game to play on my PS4 but it's not particularly attractive. Those outfits the thief's are wearing 8| I'm sure the concept art looked cool, but stylised sketches of dark sleek figures covered in belts just doesn't work when translated to a 3D models in a realistic inhabited game world, they just looks kinda ridiculous

Garrett just looks absurd. I can't believe they went with the blue eye thing.

[melmer]

I don't know where else to put this

Get excited. I hope it's next gen only

https://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/topic/7415-dishonored-or-gifs-by-breckon/page-20#entry279764

[Twig]

got excited!!!

[Merus]

I'm sure some of that could be used for vastly improved AI, maybe where instead of there being a million idiots there could be a handful of intelligent guards that alert each other if a light goes out, notice if a thing is stolen or a door left open, and can maybe see beyond 10 feet in front of themselves.

 

It starts to get a little prohibitive to have every guard build a mental model of what their beat should look like, from what I understand.

 

On the other hand, if it turns out no-one's actually tried it, and it's possible to have AI agents that have a mental model of the world and they notice every change, things like doors being unlocked and guards not being visible would attract suspicion, and that'd be fantastic. Right now stealth is in a bit of a rut where the most effective way to proceed is to eliminate every guard patrolling their set routes. If guards have a 'beat', and they do the rounds when their mental model gets too old, you could have more elaborate environments and get rid of the old saw of a guard being paid to stare out a window, then turn to stare at the wall.

[Murdoc]

http://www.shacknews.com/article/83384/thief-developer-eidos-montreal-lays-off-more-than-two-dozen

 

Hate to say it, but this was my worst worry from everything that has been going on there and Square Enix. I dunno if we'll ever see a real Deus Ex sequel now, at least from this studio.

[mikemariano]

To: [email protected]

From: mikemariano

Date: 3/4/2014 5:45pm

Subject: Games

Body:

Dear Thumbs,

 

Why would anyone work on a AAA game?

 

Happy Dishonored Ash Wednesday!

 

Mike

[Murdoc]

I get really bummed with that question every day because it's basically the only way I make a living.

[Sno]

http://www.shacknews.com/article/83384/thief-developer-eidos-montreal-lays-off-more-than-two-dozen

 

Hate to say it, but this was my worst worry from everything that has been going on there and Square Enix. I dunno if we'll ever see a real Deus Ex sequel now, at least from this studio.

 

Eidos Montreal is a relatively large studio, isn't it? It's been stated multiple times that they have different internal teams for Deus Ex and Thief. I suspect these layoffs affect the Thief team, rather than the reasonably successful Deus Ex team. (Which is confirmed to be working on another Deus Ex. They're also porting their allegedly totally okay built-for-iOS Deus Ex game to Steam.)