Thi4f

[Erkki]

That bow seems over-engineered. I hope it turns out good enough in practice to receive my annual bow-of-the-year award.

[Nachimir]

The bow really stuck out to me when I first looked at the screenshots; I find it quite interesting the way they've obviously emphasised it. A greebled compound bow seems like the optimum intersection of remaining somewhat consistent to the original games while also selling Thief to dudebros.

[Thrik]

I don't think anything sums up my feelings about the

better than this image:
 


Much better Dishonored trailer.

[youmeyou]

It's amazing how close to the actual gameplay that Dishonored trailer is. What a phenomenal accomplishment.

 

It's disappointing how unoriginal that Thief trailer looks. I guess it's the curse of being the oft-copied originator trying to compete in a much bigger pond (see: Prometheus, Episode 1)

[Frenetic Pony]

It's amazing how close to the actual gameplay that Dishonored trailer is. What a phenomenal accomplishment.

 

It's disappointing how unoriginal that Thief trailer looks. I guess it's the curse of being the oft-copied originator trying to compete in a much bigger pond (see: Prometheus, Episode 1)

 

You mean a 1 minute cinematic trailer? I mean there's cynical and then there's trying too hard to be cynical. Still reserving judgement, but I don't think they've done anything wrong yet. I even like the catchphrase. Screw saving the world, I want to steal shit!

[youmeyou]

I said the trailer looks unoriginal. I didn't say the game looks unoriginal. I can only comment on what I've seen.

[Salacious Snake]

I like the hand-grabby logo animation at the end.

 

Also, I agree that the Dishonored thing is surprisingly representative of the game experience. Pretty cool shit.

[Thrik]

You mean a 1 minute cinematic trailer? I mean there's cynical and then there's trying too hard to be cynical. Still reserving judgement, but I don't think they've done anything wrong yet. I even like the catchphrase. Screw saving the world, I want to steal shit!

 

If companies are going to insist on churning out these pre-rendered trailers then they're going to have to make do with us developing feelings about the games based on them. The only vibe I get from that trailer is "I look a lot like Dishonored". There's not really much more than can be said about such a short trailer, so I'm guessing that same sentiment has been expressed far and wide.

[Thrik]

I like the hand-grabby logo animation at the end.

 

Also, I agree that the Dishonored thing is surprisingly representative of the game experience. Pretty cool shit.

 

Yeah, watching it after completing the game is great. It so perfectly sums up everything the experience is all about. I thought similar things about the Deus Ex: Human Revolution trailer, lots of details you're only likely to spot after playing it through:

 

 

Good god, what a pair of games Dishonored and Deus Ex: HR are.

[Frenetic Pony]

Both the Deus Ex and Thief trailers seem to have more to do with the story than the gameplay.

 

And while the setting might not be the most interesting for Thief, I like the idea of the story. "I am a Thief". Done, good. Maybe a stealth game that's not Dishonored's kinda lame half attempt or Splinter Cell's action bullshit, or even Mark of the Ninja's completely unstealth platforming whatever it was, but some real actual stealth going on. Really that's the main thing I'm looking for.

[youmeyou]

Jeeze guy, I'm not sure if there's a game that can ever exist that will satisfy you if those three are your examples of bad stealth.

[Frenetic Pony]

Jeeze guy, I'm not sure if there's a game that can ever exist that will satisfy you if those three are your examples of bad stealth.

 

Original Splinter Cell and Chaos Theory are great (was talking about the newer Splinter Cell games), as are Thief 1 and 2, some of 3 is good as well. Dishonored is NOT a great stealth game. Every developer in existence today seems to think "Hey lets make a stealth game! But wait, actual stealth is boring, lets add a bunch of shooting and stuff."

 

As for Mark of the Ninja, it's far more of a weird platformer than anything I'd recognize as actual stealth. I'd consider any game where you know with precision whether you are "Safe" or not at the moment to not be a stealth game. For me the enjoyment comes from not knowing, from worrying about whether that guard is going to see me, or if there's something around the corner, from being methodical and quiet and having great timing and them something goes wrong and OH GOD WHY AHHHH!!!

[Thrik]

It's kind of bizarre that you consider Dishonored to be a bad stealth game, that's one aspect it's pretty much universally acclaimed for (amongst many other things). It's one of the best stealth experiences I've had in years, and its mechanics are frighteningly close to perfect. Sure you can go around blowing shit up, that's entirely a player choice and completely unnecessary.

 

Stealth games are a very personal thing, though. My ideal stealth game is one where I don't have to kill a single dude, but I can thoroughly cleanse an area of conscious enemies and have a great time doing so. I am what you might call a non-lethal completionist or something. If you're more of a 'sneak through and nobody even knows' kind of stealth player I guess Dishonored isn't so much for you, as you can't really avoid having to at least take enemies out. Similar to Metal Gear Solid in that respect, also a favourite of mine.

[TychoCelchuuu]

As for Mark of the Ninja, it's far more of a weird platformer than anything I'd recognize as actual stealth. I'd consider any game where you know with precision whether you are "Safe" or not at the moment to not be a stealth game. For me the enjoyment comes from not knowing, from worrying about whether that guard is going to see me, or if there's something around the corner, from being methodical and quiet and having great timing and them something goes wrong and OH GOD WHY AHHHH!!!

Then really what you're saying is that Mark of the Ninja is a bad stealth* game, where "stealth*" means "Frenetic Pony's odd definition of what stealth means." So instead of going around saying it's a bad stealth game and then getting people confused, you should maybe say that you don't like Mark of the Ninja does its stealth. That doesn't make it bad - it just makes it different, and you happen to not like the ways in which it's different. But you don't dislike it because it does stealth badly/doesn't do stealth at all - you dislike it because it does stealth in a certain way.

Given what you like about stealth though, I have no idea why you dislike Dishonored, because it has literally everything you ask for as near as I can tell.

[Twig]

Dishonored is NOT a great stealth game. Every developer in existence today seems to think "Hey lets make a stealth game! But wait, actual stealth is boring, lets add a bunch of shooting and stuff."

Basically what you're saying is "they provide options besides stealth, so it's not a stealth game"?

 

I definitely played the game exactly like you described a "good" stealth game should play and found it to be really fun and engaging.

[Frenetic Pony]

Then really what you're saying is that Mark of the Ninja is a bad stealth* game, where "stealth*" means "Frenetic Pony's odd definition of what stealth means." So instead of going around saying it's a bad stealth game and then getting people confused, you should maybe say that you don't like Mark of the Ninja does its stealth. That doesn't make it bad - it just makes it different, and you happen to not like the ways in which it's different. But you don't dislike it because it does stealth badly/doesn't do stealth at all - you dislike it because it does stealth in a certain way.

Given what you like about stealth though, I have no idea why you dislike Dishonored, because it has literally everything you ask for as near as I can tell.

 

It's just not my definition of stealth, you could remove the entire idea of "Stealth" and have the same mechanics and call it something else. It's an extremely EMPOWERING game, and a game where each enemy has no AI, no... it's an interesting take on something else you can call stealth, but it's a different thing. Something very binary and platformy.

 

ANd no, Dishonored is most definitely a bad stealth game. Maybe it was good if you were bad at the game, but if you were good at it Dishonored was barely a game. I ghosted the final level in a single run in about ten minutes on my first try. There wasn't a "game" there if you went stealth and used your abilities to maximum effect. Level 2 blink might as well have been a wallhack. Then there was the fact that you could kill enemies so easily. At least there was motivation not too, however janky the reasoning and mechanic was.

 

But most of all, a good stealth game, from the traditional Thief kind of stealth, does NOT have action in the traditional sense. It's a mutually exclusive in every way. I enjoy being good at a game, which means completing the objective efficiently. As soon as any game has ever introduced "you are good at murdering everyone" then that has been, without exception, the more efficient way to go. More than that it ruins the entire feeling of stealth, of being terrified of being discovered because you know that if you are you can just murder a thousand guys that come at you.

 

Saying a stealth game can have shooter like action is like saying a Mario game can have shooter like action. Why carefully time your jumps when you can shoot a goomba in the face? It's not the same thing, no matter how a developer tries to convince themselves or their customers.

[TychoCelchuuu]

Just because there's a way to play the game that makes it less fun doesn't mean you must play the game that way and fuck it up for yourself. Efficiency isn't really a virtue - it's just a way to get stuff done faster. If Dishonored is less fun when you play it the most efficient way, then just don't play it that way...

Plus, if being able to murder everyone made a stealth game bad, surely the Splinter Cell games, especially Chaos Theory, would fail. Chaos Theory can basically turn into The Adventures of Sam Fisher, The Amazing Knife Stabber. Sam can just stab every motherfucker who discovers him.

[Frenetic Pony]

Just because there's a way to play the game that makes it less fun doesn't mean you must play the game that way and fuck it up for yourself. Efficiency isn't really a virtue - it's just a way to get stuff done faster. If Dishonored is less fun when you play it the most efficient way, then just don't play it that way...

Plus, if being able to murder everyone made a stealth game bad, surely the Splinter Cell games, especially Chaos Theory, would fail. Chaos Theory can basically turn into The Adventures of Sam Fisher, The Amazing Knife Stabber. Sam can just stab every motherfucker who discovers him.

 

I like being GOOD at the game.

 

I said that. It ruins it for me. I'm sure it ruins it for plenty of people. It's like being asked to run a race, but then saying "oh by the way would you mind smashing this hammer into your knee a few times? You know, just to make it more of a challenge." Actually almost everyone does this, as soon as you give almost anyone a better way to do something they'll take it, even if it ruins their fun. One example given by developers themselves was Resistance 2. There was a gun that could see and shoot through walls, so everyone that figured it out would just use that, shoot every enemy in the level, and then just walk through. To not do so would make you feel stupid.

 

And yes, Chaos Theory wasn't perfect, but at least you had to be skillful with the knife, you could still murder everyone, but you had to do it in the right way, a stealthy way. Not just "shoot those motherfuckers in the face because it's a third person shooter" type thing.

 

Though to vastly undermine my own point, I did love trying to do each Uncharted 2 area (that presented the opportunity) in a stealthy way. Somehow the idea that I could, or even should be shooting everyone in the face didn't matter. Not sure why it didn't matter there and does in other games for me. Maybe if some developer could figure out whatever it is that got me (and a lot of other people) to enjoy trying to stealth it in Uncharted, a game ABOUT murdering thousands of dudes, while the same thing bothers so much in the newer Splinter Cell's (I know I'm not alone by a long shot in not liking the action focus there) then an action stealth game could be worked out. But until it's figured out, most of the time it just ruins it for me and for a lot of other players. Just look take a look at all the "ugh, not more action" comments on Kotaku to see people that agree.

[Thrik]

It's just not my definition of stealth, you could remove the entire idea of "Stealth" and have the same mechanics and call it something else. It's an extremely EMPOWERING game, and a game where each enemy has no AI, no... it's an interesting take on something else you can call stealth, but it's a different thing. Something very binary and platformy.

 

ANd no, Dishonored is most definitely a bad stealth game. Maybe it was good if you were bad at the game, but if you were good at it Dishonored was barely a game. I ghosted the final level in a single run in about ten minutes on my first try. There wasn't a "game" there if you went stealth and used your abilities to maximum effect. Level 2 blink might as well have been a wallhack. Then there was the fact that you could kill enemies so easily. At least there was motivation not too, however janky the reasoning and mechanic was.

 

But most of all, a good stealth game, from the traditional Thief kind of stealth, does NOT have action in the traditional sense. It's a mutually exclusive in every way. I enjoy being good at a game, which means completing the objective efficiently. As soon as any game has ever introduced "you are good at murdering everyone" then that has been, without exception, the more efficient way to go. More than that it ruins the entire feeling of stealth, of being terrified of being discovered because you know that if you are you can just murder a thousand guys that come at you.

 

Saying a stealth game can have shooter like action is like saying a Mario game can have shooter like action. Why carefully time your jumps when you can shoot a goomba in the face? It's not the same thing, no matter how a developer tries to convince themselves or their customers.

 

There's some kind of weird snobbery or arrogance pervading your posts here. So I'm now shit at Dishonored because I enjoyed it? We can't call games true stealth games unless they exclude any other kind of gameplay? 

 

Part of what makes games like Deus Ex and Dishonored so enjoyable for me is the fact that you have absolute choice over how you play them. I love being able to switch between stealth and aggression depending on the circumstances, indeed I see it as a fantastic gaming evolution. Even Metal Gear Solid has gone from virtually forcing stealth to allowing you to take a more combat-orientated approach as you retreat. Perhaps Dishonored made players a bit too powerful at times, but self-control and higher difficulty levels keep things spicy.

 

This kind of genre blending is clearly something you vehemently disapprove of, and you seemingly played Dishonored in a very different way to me (skipping most enemies and ghosting through levels rather than intentionally taking them all down silently). There's no point in deliberating over the issue because you're looking for different things out of your games.

[Frenetic Pony]

There's some kind of weird snobbery or arrogance pervading your posts here. So I'm now shit at Dishonored because I enjoyed it? We can't call games true stealth games unless they exclude any other kind of gameplay? 

 

Part of what makes games like Deus Ex and Dishonored so enjoyable for me is the fact that you have absolute choice over how you play them. I love being able to switch between stealth and aggression depending on the circumstances, indeed I see it as a fantastic gaming evolution. Even Metal Gear Solid has gone from virtually forcing stealth to allowing you to take a more combat-orientated approach as you retreat. Perhaps Dishonored made players a bit too powerful at times, but self-control and higher difficulty levels keep things spicy.

 

This kind of genre blending is clearly something you vehemently disapprove of, and you seemingly played Dishonored in a very different way to me (skipping most enemies and ghosting through levels rather than intentionally taking them all down silently). There's no point in deliberating over the issue because you're looking for different things out of your games.

 

No, you didn't use the powers in Dishonored to complete it as fast as you could, so you enjoyed it more. I don't think I'm any "better for it" which is what you seem to be implying, which I never mentioned in any way. I just mentioned that if you're good enough it's easy to break the game almost entirely and it doesn't seem as interesting for it. Take the example of a multiplayer game. If you're matched up against someone of a similar skill level it can be a lot of fun, if you're matched up to someone far below your skill level and you're hoping for a challenge it's not even worth it to play.

 

"Genre blending" is not something I disapprove of either. It's something that in these cases has ruined these once stealth only games for me, and I'm stating that. I don't like most modern "Stealth" games because they've taken the stealth aspects away to make it fun for other people. I can not be entertained by them for whatever reason I want, and I think they're good reasons and just wanted to explain what they are.

[TychoCelchuuu]

I like being GOOD at the game.

I think you pretty clearly don't like being good at certain games - at the very least, Dishonored. You just have a weird irresistible compulsion to be good at it, and your inability to overcome the compulsion and have fun with the game leads you to not enjoy it. You could blame the game for this, or you could blame yourself. I tend to take the second route because it seems like taking the first damns dame designers to a hell where they must make one kind of game for one kind of person instead of letting players enjoy the kind of freedom that so many people love about Dishonored, but whatever.

[Frenetic Pony]

I think you pretty clearly don't like being good at certain games - at the very least, Dishonored. You just have a weird irresistible compulsion to be good at it, and your inability to overcome the compulsion and have fun with the game leads you to not enjoy it. You could blame the game for this, or you could blame yourself. I tend to take the second route because it seems like taking the first damns dame designers to a hell where they must make one kind of game for one kind of person instead of letting players enjoy the kind of freedom that so many people love about Dishonored, but whatever.

I think we have a different definitions here. Rather, I enjoy it when I'm doing the best at a game and having fun doing so. In the case of Dishonored it was, for me, EITHER doing my best or having fun, or rather since I enjoy "doing my best" it's hard for me to have fun when I'm not. I know there are people that enjoy doing so, used to talk to a fun goofy guy that would play Left 4 Dead 2 only on the easiest setting, and he had a blast. I tried playing it with him, and I didn't. I vastly preferred playing realism versus against people really good at being the infected or the survivors.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that when it comes to highly objective based games, I usually prefer being highly challenged to do my best. If doing my best isn't fun, then I didn't have fun. Of course there's always the story or something else in single player games, but none of those worked for me in Dishonored.

[TychoCelchuuu]

One way to challenge yourself would be to not use Blink 2, or to not kill anyone, or stuff like that. Do challenges need to be hard coded into the game for them to be fun, or can they be self-imposed? You're fine with having them imposed by others (in L4D2 for instance), so why not impose some yourself?

[BigJKO]

I don't think anything sums up my feelings about the

better than this image:

 

Much better Dishonored trailer.

 

[Thrik]

One way to challenge yourself would be to not use Blink 2, or to not kill anyone, or stuff like that. Do challenges need to be hard coded into the game for them to be fun, or can they be self-imposed? You're fine with having them imposed by others (in L4D2 for instance), so why not impose some yourself?

 

I think you've hit what I was trying (and failing) to say on the head. When I play games like Dishonored, Deus Ex, and Metal Gear Solid I impose limits on myself that make the game much more challenging. I don't need or expect developers to essentially create a series of room puzzles I have to navigate; in all of these games you can whiz through each area relatively unscathed, never so much as brushing past an enemy. But if you want to do things like:

 

• Neutralise every enemy in the game
• Never raise an alarm
• Never kill anyone
• Collect every ebook/letter/ipod 
• Play on a higher difficulty (somewhat uniquely to stealth games, this causes enemies to see/hear better and/or there be more of them)

... suddenly things get very challenging indeed. It's no coincidence that most newer stealth games include proper mechanics for these things. You're meant to craft your own experience to an extent, which I guess isn't necessarily for anyone but I much prefer it to those same games having brutally uncompromising stealth gameplay.