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You know what game had great stealth?... Far Cry 3

 

I never fully enjoy the ambiguity of whether you are being seen or not in games like dishonoured or... you name it, any first person game which has stealth mechanics: crysis 2, halo 4, etc.

 

So Far Cry 3, for starters hiding in the long grass was fantastic. The only other game i can think of that lets you hide in shrubbery is Ass Creed 3 and its probably one of the best things they added to the AC formula for the latest iteration and will no doubt be present in the Caribbean jungles.

 

But what really made the stealth stand out for me was the on screen prompts, you always know when you've been spotted as the game gives you an increasing 'i see you' meter, and whats fantastic about it is that you rarely get that AH FUCK moment when you are spotted, as you generally get a 2 second buffer where you can slip back into the shadows/grass. Obviously the jungle setting helps massively in this regard as you can't really blend into the carpet when spotted in a dishonoured hallway. But there were times in dishonoured when i'd be sat on a ledge or roof top with an every approaching guard and i had no fucking idea if the game considered me hidden or not

 

Stealth prompts :tup:

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Yeah I think games are still exploring getting the balance right in that respect. Some games have had absolutely ludicrous situations where the enemy would obviously see you in real life, but because your stealth meter is on 'full' he can't figure out you're there despite virtually being in his face. But on the opposite side of that, without the meter you sometimes think you're totally hidden (and likely would be in real life) yet the enemy spots you.

 

Metal Gear Solid, once again, did this about as well as any game that I can think of. In MGS3 and MGS4 you have a little meter in the corner which shows a percentage of how obscured you are regardless of proximity to enemies, which factors in things such as your posture, how much your camouflage matches the surface you're on/against, and how fast you're moving. So you have that nice, measured aspect of the stealth, and then on top of that enemy proximity and cones of vision remain unmeasured (ie: you have to use intuition and experience to know how far an enemy can see, and how that relates to your current stealth level). Basically it just feels very robust, reliable, and challenging without seeming unfair.

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I remember when i played MGS3, the no map/cone of vision freaked me the fuck out

 

Because i'm an impatient ass hat, i hated the idea of wriggling around everywhere on my belly as i never knew if i'd be spotted if i were to stand up. so i threw caution to the wind and just ran everywhere

 

That final massive area, the big tank hanger was an utter cluster fuck of me running around like a headless chicken with alerts going off left, right and centre.

 

I didn't want to invest that much time and effort in to it, i just wanted to play a video game. Perhaps MGS5 could make me care, but only with a completely overhaul of its controls, it needs tomb raiders auto stealth crouch!

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I think I get where Frenetic Pony is coming from. The games he talks about, if you were to take the stealth aspect away, are still about empowerment. Whereas classics like Thief 1 and 2 leave the player extremely vulnerable when they have been detected. To be at you best at Thief, you need to remain unseen. Regardless of the rules imposed by players themselves, the design of Dishonored at its heart not just "a stealth game" or "an action game". In that sense, I think it's incredibly valid to not think of Dishonored and Deus Ex: HR, and games like it, as stealth games.

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I remember when i played MGS3, the no map/cone of vision freaked me the fuck out

 

Because i'm an impatient ass hat, i hated the idea of wriggling around everywhere on my belly as i never knew if i'd be spotted if i were to stand up. so i threw caution to the wind and just ran everywhere

 

That final massive area, the big tank hanger was an utter cluster fuck of me running around like a headless chicken with alerts going off left, right and centre.

 

I didn't want to invest that much time and effort in to it, i just wanted to play a video game. Perhaps MGS5 could make me care, but only with a completely overhaul of its controls, it needs tomb raiders auto stealth crouch!

 

Ah man, what? I absolutely loved how completely immersed that game made me feel. The crawling through the jungle with nothing except the thick, enveloping sound of nature is a massive part of the magic! I can't actually think of a better stealth experience than what that game delivered. MGS4 improved the mechanics (automatic camouflage oh god thank you) but the overall experience of MGS3 was just... shit man, I'm getting urges to play it right now.

 

It's kind of odd that you ran around the final base too, though. That whole area was totally MGS1 type gameplay, albeit without radar. No need for crawling everywhere there.

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Ah man, what? I absolutely loved how completely immersed that game made me feel. The crawling through the jungle with nothing except the thick, enveloping sound of nature is a massive part of the magic! I can't actually think of a better stealth experience than what that game delivered. MGS4 improved the mechanics (automatic camouflage oh god thank you) but the overall experience of MGS3 was just... shit man, I'm getting urges to play it right now.

 

It's kind of odd that you ran around the final base too, though. That whole area was totally MGS1 type gameplay, albeit without radar. No need for crawling everywhere there.

Did the original MGS3 have fixed camera angles like 1 and 2? I think that may have been my problem, as i played the subsistence version with free cam so i could see all the enemies... but can they see me, CAN THEY SEE ME?1?!?! AHHHHHHH and therein lies my problem

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Did the original MGS3 have fixed camera angles like 1 and 2? I think that may have been my problem, as i played the subsistence version with free cam so i could see all the enemies... but can they see me, CAN THEY SEE ME?1?!?! AHHHHHHH and therein lies my problem

 

In Subsistence you can switch between the free cam and the MGS1-style cam by pressing the camera stick button. For the non-jungle areas I'd say you definitely want MGS1-style cam, whereas for jungle you really need the free cam so you can can actually observe where you're going as you crawl around. I don't think I'd have enjoyed MGS3 very much at all if I'd had to use MGS1-style cam throughout. For that reason I would say that playing the Subsistence version is pretty much vital.

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I think I get where Frenetic Pony is coming from. The games he talks about, if you were to take the stealth aspect away, are still about empowerment. Whereas classics like Thief 1 and 2 leave the player extremely vulnerable when they have been detected. To be at you best at Thief, you need to remain unseen. Regardless of the rules imposed by players themselves, the design of Dishonored at its heart not just "a stealth game" or "an action game". In that sense, I think it's incredibly valid to not think of Dishonored and Deus Ex: HR, and games like it, as stealth games.

 

I dunno, that just seems to fall into discussions of syntax and definitions which I generally don't think helps matters when it comes to judging the quality of something.

 

Call Dishonored what you will, but the fact that you can complete the campaign without alerting or killing any guards makes it an example that can be used when discussing stealth in games. And I think it's an example of stealth done wonderfully.

 

Stealth can be interpreted as being about disempowerment but really when you think about it stealth is the ultimate kind of empowerment. You are the ghost, the phantom (pain), hiding in the shadows completely unbeknownst to anyone. Some lord falls off a balcony or some jewel gets stolen and no one knows how or why, only that a couple of doors were open that shouldn't have been and a couple of glass bottles kept flying across the room and breaking. That's power that comes without having to exert violence! And Dishonored is excellent at doing this, and its what I love about its version of stealth (along with Mark's).

 

I acknowledge that there's a kind of stealth where its about the panic of being seen. But I think it's myopic to think that's the only kind.

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Did the original MGS3 have fixed camera angles like 1 and 2? I think that may have been my problem, as i played the subsistence version with free cam so i could see all the enemies... but can they see me, CAN THEY SEE ME?1?!?! AHHHHHHH and therein lies my problem

 

I could see that stressing you out. You can still pretty much just dart around while using trucks and walls to break line of sight, like in the prior games, but the earlier parts train you to think differently.

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I'm trying to understand Frenetic Pony, not making a value judgement on what is the better choice or qualitatively better.

 

Stealth can be interpreted as being about disempowerment but really when you think about it stealth is the ultimate kind of empowerment. You are the ghost, the phantom (pain), hiding in the shadows completely unbeknownst to anyone. Some lord falls off a balcony or some jewel gets stolen and no one knows how or why, only that a couple of doors were open that shouldn't have been and a couple of glass bottles kept flying across the room and breaking. That's power that comes without having to exert violence! And Dishonored is excellent at doing this, and its what I love about its version of stealth (along with Mark's).

 

Yes and I agree with that. I didn't say that stealth was about disempowerement, because I don't think it is. Exactly like you said, you're at your most powerful when you're hidden, but there's an inversion there when you compare a Thief to a Dishonored, which is what I thought alluded to. It's stealth as a tool in your belt, as opposed to it the framework everything else hinges on, i.e. a stealth game. OR SOMETHING.

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The disempowering comment was more about Frenetic Pony's assertion that if you're able to kill enemies outside of stealth and aren't afraid to confront enemies, it's not stealth. Sorry if my whole post seemed directed at you, was just using your post as a jumping off point to address the last page or so.

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I don't know from Thief 1, 2, 3*, but I'm getting pretty psyched about this game. It is currently the only "TRIPLE AYYY" game that I am anticipating. So that probably contributes!

 

Too bad 2014.

 

*Although I do fully intend to play them... eventually. I'm a fool for not having done so already. I may start this weekend! Except Bioshock Infinite... And other games. Guh.

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(that's exactly what i was picturing as i typed that)

 

(thank you)

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The disempowering comment was more about Frenetic Pony's assertion that if you're able to kill enemies outside of stealth and aren't afraid to confront enemies, it's not stealth. Sorry if my whole post seemed directed at you, was just using your post as a jumping off point to address the last page or so.

 

Well, it's not a "stealth" game. At least in the original Thief/Splinter Cell mode.

 

But thinking more about it, it can still be a good game. Like I said, trying to stealth it is still fun in Uncharted 2. Heck the biggest complaint is usually "why can't I ninja it through the entire area?" because there's always some scripted thing or whatever that forces you to be seen.

 

I think there it's because the stealth isn't any less challenging, or any more or less efficient than shooting guys in UC2. It's neither a "better" nor "worse" path, so you're free to choose stealth or murder based on your own feelings rather than trying to do something "Well". I think a lot of people's problems with the newer Splinter Cell games stem from this, that the action is always faster and easier than stealthing it. People just go "well I can just shoot everyone, why should I make it harder for myself?"

 

If it was a roughly equal kind of thing, if both stealth and action had the same level of efficiency and challenge, then I don't doubt there'd be far less complaints. I'm far from the only one not impressed by Dishonored and its stealth, but if say Dishonored 2 can manage a better balance of making the stealth harder and funner I doubt the complaint would hold. It won't be the same feeling as a pure stealth game, you won't get that simultaneously scared/empowered feeling of "I'm doing something incredibly dangerous but so cool!" But I wouldn't feel gypped either, by say, all the friggen awesome looking combat power but I shouldn't use them because it would take a lot longer and give me the "bad" ending.

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Hearing Ludwig's impressions on the Joystiq podcast from having seen it/played it was encouraging, they're doing a lot of things right for sure, still a lot of things left uncertain.  I can roll with some changes and rebooting but I'm concerned about it being targeted for the mainstream market and overly streamlining it with button prompts, quest markers, bullet time etc.  I'm a big fan of the original games.

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Considering Eidos Montreal's spectacular reviving of Deus Ex, I'm optimistic.

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Considering Eidos Montreal's spectacular reviving of Deus Ex, I'm optimistic.

 

 

It's a different team doing Thief but Eidos Montreal was very happy with how Deus Ex turned out and they do seem to want to repeat their success, definitely a plus that Eidos Montreal the developer.  Put me down for cautiously optimistic.

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Oh good, a Dishonored clone. They just lost my money, but maybe you guys will enjoy it. Annoying "Interview" interrupting gameplay, as a warning.

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