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EDIT: I don't get exactly why you have such a bee in your bonnet about the self help way of thinking? I wasn't 'casually' bigging up self help like it was the only form of treatment, just commenting that formal help doesn't work for everyone, you did say after all, that self help will never be as good as formal help and that just isn't true for everyone.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across too harshly, it's just that this can be quite a serious subject. I singled out you inparticular only because of your status as a (near) medical professional. As far as I'm aware there haven't been any studies showing that self-created self-help is an effective form of treatment at all, and plenty to show that not getting professional help can be destructive, so seeing you write something as casual as "I think that self therapy can be as successful if not more successful than formal therapy" is a little shocking (even though you did try and qualify it by saying "not for everyone"). I guess you might have to get used to the fact that the things you say on a medical level will be taken more seriously! :mock:

I would also like to see your source for the 80% of suicides are caused by untreated depression statement. That sounds like nonsense to me so I would be keen to look a little deeper into that.

This is a fact that's found in many places. I personally discovered it on a UK government document on depression. I'm not sure what sources you'll take as "legitimate", so maybe you should look around yourself?

Edit: I've found a few sources for you, if you'll accept them. NIMH, In Harm’s way: Suicide in American, 2003: "90% of people who kill themselves have depression or another diagnosable mental or substance abuse disorder". DR. JOSEPH SISON, 2004: "the majority of kids and adults who kill themselves have untreated depression." Marris, 1991: It is estimated that 66% of suicides had a depressive illness. Lehtinen et al, 1990: Most people do not receive adequate treatment for depression which is one of the reasons why the depression/suicide link is so strong. Barraclough, 1974: Out of 100 suicide cases studied, 93 were diagnosed as mentally ill, with 70% having depression as the primary diagnosis.

I couldn't find the precise quote I mentioned (it's obviously an estimate, as all such figures are). You're much more likely to find that precise stat than me, as I don't have access to all the medical journals you do!

I respect that you have had a rough time of it at some point and that certain advice or treatment doesn't/didn't work for you but you are coming across a bit angry and confrontational. I'm pleased that the treatment you had worked for you, it just doesn't work for everyone.

Absolutely, I never meant to dispute this. My only concern was with Scrobb's argument that "tackling something head on" is NEVER a bad thing, and that "self help" can be a bad thing (which I know you agree with).

Sorry for taking this all "very seriously", but I lost a friend to suicide (and he got some of the advice I've previously mentioned), so I'm very careful about what I say about mental health issues, and what is given as advice in conversations I'm involved in. I think it's very easy to be forget that some people are really suffering, and I wouldn't want someone to stumble across this and get the wrong message.

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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Another example: If you're suffering from bereavement (either after having been dumped, or having lost a loved one, etc.) then focussing on that pain will actually slow down the process of healing. What happens during a normal, healthy process of bereavement, is that the subconscious will feed our conscious just as much of the pain as we're able to deal with, bit by bit, rather than hitting us with the whole thing in one go, in way we couldn't handle. Over time we will naturally come to terms with the reality of the situation, at a pace which works for us. Forcing that process is NOT a good thing. (But likewise, it's probably not good to totally avoid the little bits of pain our subconscious is feeding us, either.)

Not true. I entirely bypassed that and ended up in an incredibly bad place last year. I'm not going to pretend to know a single thing about this shit but not focussing on something will often make it resurface at a later date with worse repercussions.

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Not true. I entirely bypassed that and ended up in an incredibly bad place last year. I'm not going to pretend to know a single thing about this shit but not focussing on something will often make it resurface at a later date with worse repercussions.

Yeah, I do mention that further down... Quote: "likewise, it's probably not good to totally avoid the little bits of pain our subconscious is feeding us, either." Maybe your case might be a bit different because you hadn't even begun bereaving...? I don't know. Only you could say. Once you'd started, I don't believe it would be good for you to focus on it until it had all gone. It's a long natural process, taking it bit by bit. My ex used to avoid dealing with anything, and I never felt that was doing her any good. I personally believe you DO need to deal with things, but my point was that if you ARE in a state of heavy bereavement, you don't need to go chasing down MORE of it. (I guess I made my point poorly, sorry.)

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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... As far as I'm aware there haven't been any studies showing that "self-help" is an effective form of treatment at all, and plenty to show it can be destructive, so seeing you write something as casual as "I think that self therapy can be as successful if not more successful than formal therapy" is a little shocking!

...This is a fact that's found in many places. I personally discovered it on a UK government document on depression. I'm not sure what sources you'll take as "legitimate", so maybe you should look around yourself?

I'm sorry Thunderpeel but the evidence just doesn't back you up. Infact, contrary to your first statement, there are many papers that show self help to be at least as effective as more formal 'face to face' therapy (See: Williams and Whitfield, Written and computer based self help treatments for depression, 2001, Gould and Clum, A meta analysis of self help treatment approaches, 1993, and many others)

I can't find any studies that demonstrate self help to be destructive (I can't say for sure that there aren't any but they appear to be scarce and what little information there is out there is overwhelmingly anecdotal). Again, I would like to read any references you have that show self help to actually make depression worse.

In regard to your 80% of suicides are caused by untreated depression government document. It's clear intuitively and from the literature that certain depressive states are associated with suicide, I am not disputing that, but to say that the suicides are caused by untreated depression infers by extension that if we could treat that depression, 80% of suicides could be prevented and I'm just not that sure that that would be the case.

I am painfully aware that we could treat depression a lot better than we do, but there is an awful lot more variables that drive people to commit suicide than just being depressed. Hundreds of thousands of people in the UK alone are clinically depressed yet only a handful will commit suicide. Many who commit suicide will have been treated or be on treatment when they undergo their final act, so to imply that treating those 80% will stop them from committing suicide appears to me at least to be a gross oversimplification. The cynic in me might also suggest that it sounds like a statement put about by big pharma in the hope of selling more antidepressants on the back of it :shifty:.

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Yeah, I fixed my post while you were writing yours, doh. Never mind. This whole discussion is making ME feel depressed :(

I think I've made my points as well as I can... Shall we just call it a day?

Edited by ThunderPeel2001

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Yeah I agree, let's shake hands there. I just read the last bit of your edited post (about your friend) and I can see more clearly where your passion comes from.

As a final summary (for any who googlestumble upon this thread perhaps) can we agree that the important thing is to try and do something about your inner feelings, whether that be talking to a friend, self help books etc, counselling, cognitive behavioural therapy or whatever works for you, rather than suffer alone and in silence, feeling like the only option is to end it all.

Or you could post on IdleThumbs, most of us on here seem to have been one step away from the nuthouse at some point or other! We can help! (can you feel me lightening the mood a little there <exhales> :grin:)

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Having a poor kill-to-death count on Bad Company 2 makes me depressed...

Sometimes it even makes me rage quit... Not sure if it's 80% of the time though...

:getmecoat

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This thread makes me depressed. All I've done so far is blunder along without any real problems, but you guys make the age 25+ seem ridiculously crap and scary.

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Having a poor kill-to-death count on Bad Company 2 makes me depressed...

Sometimes it even makes me rage quit... Not sure if it's 80% of the time though...

:getmecoat

How about your kill-suicide ratio? When your helicopter pilot crashes you into the sea, it's suicide, you know.

In seriousness, interesting stuff everyone. It's a shame there isn't really a single thing to take away from it all, but I guess these problems are complex and nuanced and very personal.

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But do we hear from the posters who are actually doing okay? I think not! There is a severe lack of "My life is pretty awesome"-posts.

I'm currently "vacationing", which basically means sitting around the house playing video games, watching movies and reading books. When you're doing fine, posts about your life are remarkably uninteresting. :D

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All's well here too. Don't let my cheeriness distract you from your anger, depression and self-loathing.

I feel self-indulgent every time I post stuff here that is not a problem.

So here's a jolly story: A couple of weeks ago we got a dog. She's a rescued mutt with some pitbull in her, about five years old, a fairly quick learner even though she doesn't seem to ever have been trained before. She was discovered by friends of ours covered in ticks and fleas, emaciated and recently pregnant. They looked for her litter but couldn't find it, so they nursed her to health and then gave her to us, since they couldn't keep her and we were in the process of buying a house. She was probably abused by her previous owners, or bums in the street or whoever. Early on, every time I would pick up a broom or a dowel rod, she would fold her tail and hide in the corner. She got a lot better since. Still, she hardly ever barks. That is a mixed blessing.

I'm gonna link to this facebook photo, I hope it shows up. So, this is Ada:

32003_669158354385_25416216_38458163_764816_n.jpg

And then a couple of weeks after we got Ada, a puppy followed us home from a walk. We kept knocking on doors asking people if this was their puppy or if they knew whose it is, and people figured it just got dumped in the neighborhood. We cleaned her up, deflead and deticked her. We panicked for a while, tried to get her into all these no-kill shelters in town, all of which were full, since we reasoned we couldn't and wouldn't want to take care of a puppy. We finally got her into this lady's farm animal sanctuary place a short ride south of town... but then a day later I felt emo for dropping her off at the puppy orphanage so I went back and got her. Now we have two dogs. This is the fresh puppy, named The Puppo:

29053_670497555615_25416216_38498276_1144171_n.jpg

So the moral of this story is that it feels good to be an adult and not have to do the responsible adult things with the stray animals that follow you home.

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But do we hear from the posters who are actually doing okay? I think not! There is a severe lack of "My life is pretty awesome"-posts.

That's because NOBODY'S life is pretty awesome... :zoid: ...or maybe it's just more fun to share problems :earl:

Actually, I DO have some nice news: I'm planning another trip to LA. It may well break the bank, but with I a bit of careful planning, I think I can do it! How much spending money would you require for two weeks, do you think? (I wish I'd kept a record, last time.)

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But do we hear from the posters who are actually doing okay? I think not! There is a severe lack of "My life is pretty awesome"-posts.

I'm currently "vacationing", which basically means sitting around the house playing video games, watching movies and reading books. When you're doing fine, posts about your life are remarkably uninteresting. :D

Well I had a nice time in Galveston a week and a half ago with my girlfriend of six years, but all that stuff makes me feel like I'm bragging. No oil there... yet, but turtle patrol was out everywhere.

I've also been talking about helping to animate and draw for a friend's brother's game, but I don't have time right now, but maybe I can get involved in more projects like that in the future on my free time.

Besides work, everything is kind of marred because of anger at the oil spill right now, so eh... I guess it's hard to respond when people post in the life thread with good news and you just can reply with a thumbs up, whereas usually it seems like posters want to help the others out.

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But do we hear from the posters who are actually doing okay? I think not! There is a severe lack of "My life is pretty awesome"-posts.

Ok. Here is a self indulgent, life is awesome post just for you me:

After years of not really doing much except work and read, I decided around last August that I'd try to do more physical stuff. Since then I have:

* Started learning contact juggling.

* Started learning staff.

* Started learning to unicycle. Progress is very slow and difficult, but I can go about 15 feet without falling off now.

* Kept running a board games night in a cafe, based around interesting board games rather than the mainstream UK/US tat. It's been packed nearly every time, with people running out of tables and chairs and setting up more games on the floor.

* Learned to snowboard, went to the alps, hurt myself moderately (six weeks of difficult movement), and it was totally worth it. Not only is boarding incredible fun, but I've seen few things as beautiful as snow covered mountains in the sun, or descending in whiteouts.

* Taken up a martial art based around street fighting, with no sporting elements whatsoever. I've been doing it for six months, and now when I'm in dodgy situations I feel I've got at least something backing me up, rather than just bluffing my way out of them. I've also found it reassuring that I'll do whatever avoids violence even if I can perpetrate it; one of the reasons I didn't study anything like this before was that I was afraid it would bring out more psychotic/sadistic bits of me. So far, it seems to be tempering them instead.

* Learned to ride motorbikes. I don't have one, yet.

* Bought a mountain bike. It's the first time in a decade I've had one, and in two months I've racked up 580 miles. Bikes are excellent, I get into town faster than the bus and it's getting me really fit. Even on 23 mile commutes, the average door to door time is only 20 mins to half an hour slower than it was on public transport, and it doesn't cost £10 a day.

* Helped to set up a local group for hacker and maker types, and in the past few weekends we built a great big Rube Goldberg machine (videos soon).

* Gone through a decidedly amicable breakup with the motorbike/martial arts girlfriend. It was a nice relationship for a while, but as far as I can tell, we were both getting a little bored of it.

I'm also looking at powerkites, and have a small one just to learn how they work, but would like to build up to kiteboarding next year, plus we're going to be doing stuff with kite photography at the hack group.

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That stuff sounds great Nachimir! Actually motivating yourself to do anything remotely constructive and break out of the comfort zone is harder than it should be. Other than work, all I'll be doing for the next two months is scumming around the house, watching football and spending an inordinate amount of time on the internet. The only thing that really amuses me is going out at weekends, but I need to watch my spending. Should really get out on the bike or something and take advantage of the good weather.

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With the constant barrage of entertainment available at our fingertips, it's sad that it takes precedence over other, probably more worthwhile experiences. Note to self: Must be more like Nachimir!

On another note: Just bought my ticket to LA.

Ow! My ass!

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Kingz, how long had you owned Ada before the new puppy followed you home? Because the new one looks a bit like your older dog. My first thought was the puppy smelled its mother.

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Nah, dates don't match up. The Puppo is younger than Ada's mystery litter. Besides the little one is pitch black and kindof terriery/labradorish whereas Ada is more pitbullish/mystery something with huskey eyes. Plus they were found in different parts of town, not too far apart, but far apart enough.

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Cool dogs Kingz!

We've had for almost one year now a Chihuahua named Hachi. (yeah, well after seeing Hachiko Monogatari, what other name could I really use...)

He sure is a life changer, if I happen to be depressed because of work or something else, that buddy always makes me smile because I have no idea how he can be so much full of energy all the time. I can't really show pictures at the moment, because I don't have any at the moment with me.

Got my replacement hard drive finally, now to decide whether I should re-install everything before my summer vacation or not. I think I should wait because I might get a SSD harddrive from Japan during July, that would then become my operating system harddrive. It all depends on the currency exchange rates.

Holy crap, I still can't believe that the summer vacation is only nine days away from happening. We are even taking our dog with us even though my mom and my wife's mom said we should leave him to Finland. It's been really a pain to struggle with the authorities for all the required documentation and we are not even done yet, still need to continue fighting next week just before the vacation starts on friday. Schedule for the third visit includes some of the following places:

(Tokyo, Sagamihara, Hiroshima, Nikkou, Mount Fuji etc.)

I can't wait!

Edited by Kolzig

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Cool dogs, Kingzy. And Nachimir, that's great, learning all those new things. It's important to keep learning new stuff, I try to do it as much as possible.

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Life is awesome post:

My life is going pretty swell right now! I'm in my hometown of the summer, working a bit to earn money, but mostly, I'm chillaxing, playing video games, meeting old friends, and working on personal projects. One of these is a film production, that we're aiming to shoot in July, and everyone involved are really excited. :3 It'll be a splatter/zombie movie, akin to the one I've already made. (Please watch, it's only 20 minutes. See if you can spot me!)

Another project is a couple of my other friends building an RPG system. I'm only tangentially involved so far, but it's really fun to brainstorm with them. ^^

I'm a creative guy, and I always have a certain amount of ideas floating around in my head about things I want to make, but I'm also kind of a procrastinator, so it feels really, really exciting to actually just get on the ball make something. If any of you have stuff like that floating around in your head, "oh, I should do this some time", "that would be fun to do once i have the time for it", just friggin do it! Jump in with both feet! It feels awesome.

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.... so the moral of this story is that it feels good to be an adult and not have to do the responsible adult things with the stray animals that follow you home.

Dude, you are a fucking hero! Long may you stride upon this earth with your canine companions.

S.

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Not enough good time posts?

Well, well, well!

Last week I grew a TAIL! It is fantastic. I have even managed to teach it to be prehensile. I now use it to control my mouse so I can type with both hands on the keyboard.

My life is awesome!

:clap:

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I've just been hanging out with the girl from the flat above me, who I quite like. Wootio.

Is it just me, or is reading pain and gloom more interesting?

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