Movie/TV recommendations

[ThunderPeel2001]

Watched all of Twin Peaks for the second time. Still excellent, but it sure has its share of flaws. The biggest problem I have withit is that the second season has way too much filler content. Some of the crazy wacky shit also seemed really out of place and unnecessary, but I guess that's to be expected from Lynch.

Still, very good TV series. If only all of Lynch's other works were as well done..

He wasn't very involved after the killer was revealed, and there were other problems behind the scenes. Some directors came in and were trying to be "kooky" for the sake of it, because they didn't understand the shows delicate balance. Lynch got frustrated (I think) and left them to it, making Wild at Heart instead. He still loved the universe though, even if he didn't like what was done with it.

[MrHoatzin]

I have been toying with the idea of recutting the entirety of Twin Peaks down to a more relevant series. Maybe when I get rich and have nothing better to do. Needless to say, half of second season will be cut.

[ThunderPeel2001]

That would be really interesting to see, but I imagine out would take a very long time to do!

[brkl]

So... I should watch it?

I would watch just enough to get a feel for the show and then stop. The actual story is not worth it at all.

[MrHoatzin]

I would watch just enough to get a feel for the show and then stop. The actual story is not worth it at all.

Nonsense. The story and the way it is told are inseparable. Lynch's stories generally sound moronic in a summary format, so that is an unenlightening exercise. Try it sometime. It may make your head asplode. I once overheard someone in the art studio summarize Eraserhead as

the story of a man with a deformed child who was left by the baby's mother and then the child gets very sick.

While this is technically true, it evokes a Lifetime made-for-tv movie, rather than a Kafkaesque dystopian nightmarescape.

[brkl]

I just don't see it that way. The series has lovely individual scenes and atmosphere, but plotwise it's just incomprehensible. I don't know whether this is the case, but it seems like something they came up with as they went along. Lost is very reminiscent of Twin Peaks in this manner.

[MrHoatzin]

That is definitely the case after they figured out who killed Laura Palmer, but not before. Hence my dream of editing the series down. A lot of that dribbling-in-place narrative nonsense is a side effect of not enough direction from Lynch after the murder is solved.

[Lu]

I have never seen Twin Peaks and when I first heard the title I thought it was a drama-series my nan used to watch.

The more you know.

[brkl]

That is definitely the case after they figured out who killed Laura Palmer, but not before. Hence my dream of editing the series down. A lot of that dribbling-in-place narrative nonsense is a side effect of not enough direction from Lynch after the murder is solved.

I stopped watching after the first episode of the second season. I can't remember whether the killed was found by then.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I stopped watching after the first episode of the second season. I can't remember whether the killed was found by then.

Wow. Are you sure you were paying attention? Hard to believe you can't remember that the killer wasn't revealed. You're right about the comparison to Lost, though. I guess if you don't like that sort of mystery format I can see why you wouldn't rate the story.

Season one is great, imho, and Season two has some great moments - but also some horrible ones, too.

[MrHoatzin]

Lost never felt like they knew what they were doing, tho. I saw a TED talk or something with a similar format with the Lost dude. He presented a box on the stage and said that he got that box when he was a kid and never opened it because he liked the mystery of the unknown box and thought this mystery was more important somehow than the content of the box. Essentially, the box had no substance other than its mystery. That is why Lost is shit. All that happens is for the mystery itself, mysteries that don't add up to anything are not very good mysteries. I am disappointed the dude didn't figure out a way to turn the mystery he was building into a MacGuffin and some sort of treatise on the format itself.

Twin Peaks was better considered. It had a very solid, coherent arch and it didn't throw curve balls randomly just for the sake of curve balls. I don't think it is a fair comparison by any stretch.

And then they solved the initial murder and forgot what the show was about for way too many episodes for anyone to justify.

[brkl]

Yeah, I was getting pretty tired of the show, which is why I didn't keep watching obviously. BTW, I didn't mean to imply the show was as bad as Lost, only that they suffer from similar faults. The show never seemed very coherent to me.

Again, I think the show is unique, parts of it are excellent and it's definitely worth watching as long as it entertains you.

[ThunderPeel2001]

That sounds like a TED talk worth watching to me. As much as Lost frustrated me, and as much as I felt resentful at being played like a fiddle sometimes, I think it was an excellent show that ultimately excelled in creating great characters and stories.

[Nachimir]

I enjoyed that TED talk, but it's a similar schtick to points and badges. A nice cognitive trick that works really well on people, but doesn't lead to a fulfilling experience if it's misused or overdone. Agree that Lost was shit for that reason, Kingz. I let season one annoy me all the way through expecting at least a little closure, then the first episode of season 2 made me utter "Oh for fucks sake" and never watch again.

I'd like to try Twin Peaks. I've heard high praise for it, though some friends who were big fans did a weekend marathon of the lot and really can't stomach it now.

Fun fact: The goods lift in my building has "The owls are not what they seem" scrawled inside.

[DanJW]

The Mystery Box with JJ Abrams.

I totally agree - I love mystery and think things like traditional fairy-tale logic are great and I also agree that anticipation is often better than the pay-off.

But I also steered well clear of Lost because it was obvious the mystery had no heart to it, and I had the same problem with parts of Heroes, BSG, and so on.

The thing is, if the author is simply making it up as they go, if the mystery has no cause, no centre to it - then there is no internal consistency to the story. You're playing a tacky game of Consequences, not painting a landscape. The author can choose not to reveal the mystery, but they should themselves know what it is - how else can they know what will logically happen next?

There was a bit of dialogue in the last few episodes of Caprica where the writers seemed to be excusing themselves, where a character talks about the difference between mysteries and secrets; “Secrets have answers. Now mysteries, they don’t have answers.” It's entirely self satisfied.

Knowing that Abrams has the attitude he states in the TED talk makes me not want to watch anything mystery-based he ever does ever again. I think he's missed a part of the puzzle.

[ThunderPeel2001]

You guys are being way too hard on Lost. The greater mystery is what hooks you, but it's the characters and stories that make you stick around, and what made it good. The final episode wasn't a great big reveal a thon, it was the ending to the character's stories. As I said I did get frustrated when I was aware of being played like a fiddle, but I still cried during the final episode... Because it was the characters that made the show worth while.

That said, I don't think I'd be so eager to jump into another "mystery" show again.

[Roderick]

Series like this should take a big leaf out of J. Michael Straczynski's book*. When he created the seminal Babylon 5 he had the whole thing, five seasons long, thought out. And it shows. Minor events in the first season suddenly have great significance in the last, and not in a tacky retconning way, but in a really smart foreshadowing way. The character arcs and event arcs in B5 make so much sense, they are so complete... 'making it up as they go'-shows like BSG, no matter how extraordinary it was, can't touch that.

(* Before Straczynski took a big, long poop over his creation with that recent last B5 movie. It was embarrassing to see him sink so far, it was like a different, much lesser person had written it as fanfiction.)

[Ben X]

Even B5 came a cropper with season 5, though (JMS knew it wasn't very likely he'd get his planned fifth season and so rushed to wrap up a load of stuff early, and then when it DID get recommissioned he had a lot less left to do than planned).

I don't want to get into a big Lost argument, but I think it was also a lot more planned out than some give it credit for. They did have at least a general idea of where it was going the whole way through, although it was admittedly vague for at least the first half of the first season, and you can see them setting stuff up seasons in advance. JJ Abrams did that TED talk (which was linked to on this site a loooong time ago, I think), but he wasn't the show runner and so I don't think that one talk can be taken as The Lost Ethos. I found the questions/answers ratio/dripfeed mostly perfect, and the first ep of season 2 that turned Nachimir off is a great example of that for me: answering this burning question (what's in the hatch?) with something utterly unexpected that opens up a load more questions (which also all got answered in time). The pre-titles shock-reveal is masterful.

Lost didn't by any means manage to pull off a perfect six-season structure, but it did incredibly well, and as Thunder points out, it wasn't all about the mystery. I'll finish off by linking to a great site where a fan addresses all the 'unanswered' questions by pointing out how the series gave us everything we needed to figure them out: http://lostanswers.tumblr.com

[Orv]

I'd like to point out that I had a fervent hope that I'd never have to hear about that godsdamned show ever again. Thanks.

Now to go watch a Twin Peaks marathon interspersed with all the B5 episodes featuring G'Kar.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Actually, that's quite a good point: Abrams was not as involved in the show as people think. I'm pretty sure they gave him an EP credit as thanks, more than anything. He certainly wasn't involved after season one, at least.

The B5 thing is intriguing. It's a shame out wasn't executed exactly to plan, though. Makes me wonder if it's worth watching, but does something being pre-planned automatically mean it's better than something that wasn't? Lost, Twin Peaks and Battlestar Galactica all made stuff up on the go, but they were also great in other ways. (BG was the most successful in telling a big arching story, out if those three, if you ask me. Very satisfying.)

[JonCole]

Has anyone here watched Fringe? It seems a much better execution of J.J. Abrams vision (especially since he's stayed with it the whole way thus far, unlike just sticking with S1 of Lost) and feels much more planned as far as twists and payoff goes than most shows I've watched in recent memory.

[Murdoc]

I'd like to try Twin Peaks. I've heard high praise for it, though some friends who were big fans did a weekend marathon of the lot and really can't stomach it now.

]

Season 1 is great, Season 2 turns into a parody of a soap opera, but theres a lot of good things in there, especially at the end. After that go watch Fire walk With Me, it's the Twin Peaks prequel movie that pretty much removes all the endearing goofiness the show offered, which is a shame, but then Lynch's up the rest to the max for fucked up goodness.

God damn, I want Lynch to do a Twin Peaks mini series, movie, whatever right now, Coops at the right age and everything!

[Ben X]

Has anyone here watched Fringe? It seems a much better execution of J.J. Abrams vision (especially since he's stayed with it the whole way thus far, unlike just sticking with S1 of Lost) and feels much more planned as far as twists and payoff goes than most shows I've watched in recent memory.

I fucking love Fringe! It feels less planned to me, at least not so far in advance, but that's not hampering my enjoyment of it. I just pray it doesn't lose itself in its spiderweb plotting like Alias did, but it's made it through 3 seasons without showing signs of doing so.

[JonCole]

I fucking love Fringe! It feels less planned to me, at least not so far in advance, but that's not hampering my enjoyment of it. I just pray it doesn't lose itself in its spiderweb plotting like Alias did, but it's made it through 3 seasons without showing signs of doing so.

I think that's what I mean by feels more planned, because planning only really matters to me if it boosts my enjoyment of a series. At the very least, I can appreciate that any changes that were made over time seem to be in favor of fan reaction, rather than due to a hobbled "master plan".

[Ben X]

Oh, I meant "less planned than Lost", btw. I got Lost-fixated and missed the fact you said the more general "more planned than most shows I've been watching". Yeah, it does feel like they know where they're going, but with the option to mix it up along the way.