Why the Hate on Metal Gear?

[painaxl]

Ok, so I'm pretty new around these parts. I've read most of the content on the site and browsed through a lot of the forums. There's just seemingly underlying theme that keeps popping up that I don't get... A real displeasure for the Metal Gear series.

Let me back up a bit, here. I've played games for a long time. I love quirky, fun, adventure games and declare Grim Fandango and Sam and Max: Hit the Road among my favorite games ever. I'm thoroughly enjoying Psychonauts. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was really really good.

Also, I recognize the fact that wonderfully original games are hard to find and many are underfunded, undermarketed or just plan unmade because developers refuse to take a chance. Honestly, fellow thumbers, I think we have a lot in common

But I just don't understand the hate on the Metal Gear series. I realize it's a major-market series game (although not nearly to the extent of GTA, Halo, Madden etc.), but it shares many of the qualities that it seems to me the type of folks who congregate here are looking for in a game (e.g. Strong character development, storyline and unbelieveable gameplay). Other than it being violent (and there seems to be a slight lean toward non-violent games on this board), what's up with the hate?

P.S. If I'm way off base and everyone loves it, let me know.

[Erkki]

I hate everything.

[edit]

<-- except the carrot juice.

[OftenK]

I don't hate Metal Gear (I've never played it), and I certainly don't hate violent games. What I do hate, however, are shit games that have zero inspiration and are simply put out there to get a few more bucks.

Don't confuse our love for quality and innovation for a hatred of "mainstream" or violent games.

[painaxl]

I don't hate Metal Gear (I've never played it), and I certainly don't hate violent games. What I do hate, however, are shit games that have zero inspiration and are simply put out there to get a few more bucks.

That's a big 'right on'.

I could be way off here, but I know I've seen it brought up a few times before.

[Lazarou]

I hate Metal Gear

It's just my opinion though of course, and should be taken as that. You're perfectly entitled to prove me wrong, I like a good argument anyway. There's a decent game in there somewhere, it's just with the hours and hours of cutscenes it can be hard to find it, and whoever thought spending a good chunk of the game staring at intercom screens would be a good way to spend the player's time should be lined up and shot against the nearest available wall. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the original Metal Gear Solid despite its faults, and was fairly impressed getting into the first level or so or the sequel. But after that it started to go downhill pretty quickly for me, and I just couldn't get any enjoyment out of it anymore. It wasn't a Matrix Reloaded level of sheer "what have you DONE?" proportions, but it was pretty close.

It just annoys me that PS mags rave about it like it's the second coming of gameplay, when really I think it's nothing all that special. I guess I tend to make my arguments against it stronger to balance out the people raving about it. It just pisses me off when games seem to exist as a means of delivering cutscenes, rather than the cinematics existing to enhance the gameplay. FFX was guilty of this too, as well as a few others.

[Redwall]

To be fair, many adventure games are guilty of the same thing. However, a good adventure game's story makes sense, whereas the story of MGS... doesn't.

[painaxl]

I can certainly understand the complaints about the cutscenes. While I enjoy them immensely, I can see where people would see too many. However, I do have more of a problem with the codec conversations than the actual cutscenes (which usually provide at least some interesting action) in MGS2, especially.

The problem is, when the second half storyline of MGS2 is really getting hot, you've either decided to stick with the story/codec/cutscenes or are completely sick of it. Not to mention that the last two hours are roughly 70% cutscenes/conversations (and that might be being conservative).

MGS3, on the other hand, has no "CODEC" since it's set in the 60's and the characters never talk on the radio when they're standing next to each other (a silly suspended disbelief element of MGS2). It definitely keeps the focus on the game without making the story any less enjoyable.

Maybe I just have a soft spot for a game that does something that the mainstream says they've wanted forever ("make a game feel like a movie") and when it does that (a pretty good movie with a twisted ending, no less), lots of gamers got a little more than they could handle.

By the way, if you enjoyed the fun of the original MGS, but were greatly annoyed by MGS2 (understandable), you might enjoy MGS3 a whole lot. It still has the story with elements of craziness and awesome characterization without as many long conversations. Not to mention, the game still plays beautifully.

[Chris]

I played Metal Gear Solid when it came out (I don't really remember much about the previous Metal Gear games) and I couldn't really get it into it. I have nothing against the series, and I wish I could get into it enough to play through it just to see what everyone's on about, but it's just not my kind of gameplay. MGS was hard as hell for me and I had to give up eventually.

[painaxl]

To be fair, many adventure games are guilty of the same thing. However, a good adventure game's story makes sense, whereas the story of MGS... doesn't.

While I'll agree that MGS2's second half/ending (or, more specifically, last 3 or so hours) can be quite unnerving to the point of madness, it's not even half as nonsensical as the past couple of hours I've played FFX. Then again, since I'm at a boss that apparently I'm too weak to beat right near the end, maybe it resolves perfectly.

I think the comparison of storylines might have something to do with the fact that the MGS series is not an out and out "fantasy" setting like many adventure games. This does not necessarily mean knights and elves type of things, but stuff like Sam and Max, Grim Fandango, Space Quest etc.

[Savage Cabbage]

I think they should make Tupperware Gear Solid. Not only can you then hide in this box but you can keep your sandwiches fresh too.

Personally, I really enjoyed the Metal Gear series. It provided, for me, the first solid (sorry) bigscreen feel to a game. I didn't feel I had to rush the game and was happy to takein all of the cutscenses and codec gumbo. Plus the audio is fantastic (Liberty being my fav. for that)

[SoccerDude28]

I don't hate MGS as much as I hate "Stealth and Sneaking" games. I never got into Splinter Cell, and even farcry which has its fair share of sneaking turned me off. I'd rather face my enemies and blast them into oblivion. I don't mind a little bit of stealth for a short period, but when the whole game is structured around stealth, and I get caught about 6 times in a row, it just kills the experience for me.

[jokemaster]

I played Metal Gear Solid when it came out (I don't really remember much about the previous Metal Gear games) and I couldn't really get it into it. I have nothing against the series, and I wish I could get into it enough to play through it just to see what everyone's on about, but it's just not my kind of gameplay. MGS was hard as hell for me and I had to give up eventually.

Actually, I found MGS2 and MGS: The twin snakes on gamecube a lot easier than the original, mostly due to the availability of first-person aiming and a lot more stuff to do. I love the MGS series, though I did get really annoyed with the codec near the end of MGS2.

I prefer the MGS series over splinter cell, simply because it gives you more of a chance. Once you get the hang of it, you can usually survive being spotted. Plus there's none of that 'Don't be spotted, don't kill anyone' crap.

And yes, if you hated MGS2 because of long cutscenes and codecs, MGS3 fixes that. Yes there are some long cutscenes, but there's a lot more gameplay too.

[Salka]

you can eat a snake

[netmonkey]

My friend said Metal Gear for the NES was HURD.

[Nick]

you can eat a snake

Yes you can.

I like Metal Gear Solid, I also think it's overrated though.

[Dingo Chavez]

I'm ambivalent towards Metal Gear.

On one hand; It has some of the finest animation I've seen, I like the boss fights, think the game itself is very well done, and I have fun with it even though I despise stelth games, I can even play it for over three hours straight which is a rarity for me these days.

On the other; I dislike the story and stories that are about terrorists, loath many of the characters and find them laughable (Volgan, that evil bisexual guy in MGS3 was just beyond bad in my opinion), think much of the writing is incrediblely chessy (like a B-action movie), think they just over do it with everything that's cut-scene related. And the only army related story I ever really liked is Apocalypse Now, so a military setting is a bit of a turn off for me. I even feel a little embarrassed playing it in public because I find it very dumb at times, I had the same feeling when I played Final Fantasy X-2 except worse.

I don't really care for "shocking" plot twists in anything. I know something is coming and I don't care for them giving me clues and teasing me about what it is, I'm a cynical person (I think that has something to do with it).

I like stories that just continue and are calm and pretty. Wes Anderson is by far my favorite movie director because he does just that, no "shocking" plot twists, the characters are comical and don't take themselves too seriously, and it just continues and tells a very simple story. Now that's what I want stories in games to be, and not more military "I'm your brother, but also your antagonist" type of story.

I like Metal Gear, I played all the Solid ones and enjoyed them, but I just don't find it that amazing.

My brother loves it though.

And I couldn't stop laughing at the love scene at the end of MGS 3. It's bad enough in movies with real people, but with polygon characters it's just comedy, and I think they were trying to be serious.

[Lazarou]

By the way, if you enjoyed the fun of the original MGS, but were greatly annoyed by MGS2 (understandable), you might enjoy MGS3 a whole lot. It still has the story with elements of craziness and awesome characterization without as many long conversations. Not to mention, the game still plays beautifully.

Thanks for the tip, sounds like it could be worth another shot. MGS2 put me off the series completely, but this sounds more like it . I'll give it a try anyway.

[jokemaster]

To be honest, like any game and movie it depends on taste, the mood you're in when you're playing it, and really just your taste. I mean, I love the games, sure I think they're overrated, but they're stilll pretty good in my opinion.

But yeah, if you got turned off the series by MGS2, give MGS3 a try

[manny_c44]

They've getting worse with each installment. MGS1 was childish, inept, and at times laughable, but it was fun most of the way through and pulled off the 'cinema' style like none other.

But (for me atleast) the games always get less and less fun the further I get through the game. And I think the reason is: guns! Guns break the game. There is no finer part of the MGS series than the very opening of metal gear solid 1, where you have simple logic-puzzle layouts and no weapons. These first enviornments are well designed and tense, forcing the player to actually avoid detection and hide when spotted, instead of the tranquilizer-gun antics featured in the last two games. And each new weapon saps that inital fun a little more until you're left with the MGS3 endgame drivel: mowing people down with your high powered shotgun while trying to navigate the confusing mists of the faux jungle, stopping occasionaly to blow a stamina-replenishing squirrel out of a tree with a rocket propelled grenade.

The saddest part was that the original MGS1 formula, with dumb, half-blind guards and fast hide timers, was balanced exceptionally. It was the stealth game that was actually fun. But there's none of that left, it's all gone to pot.

And stories...wow...totally embarrassing. MGS3's story wasn't even wierd or quirky or anything, it was just random shite.

[painaxl]

I like stories that just continue and are calm and pretty. Wes Anderson is by far my favorite movie director because he does just that, no "shocking" plot twists, the characters are comical and don't take themselves too seriously, and it just continues and tells a very simple story. Now that's what I want stories in games to be, and not more military "I'm your brother, but also your antagonist" type of story.

I LOVE Wes Anderson as well. However, I just rewatched The Aquatic Life yesterday after I bought it on DVD and I have to dispute your point just a bit.

You didn't think

Ned's death, although foreshadowed briefly by the helicopter scene

was a "shocking" twist?

As for military themed games/movies, MGS is the only one I can stand. This might have to do with the fact that it has a lot more personal themes then something like Medal of Honor.

But (for me atleast) the games always get less and less fun the further I get through the game. And I think the reason is: guns! Guns break the game. There is no finer part of the MGS series than the very opening of metal gear solid 1, where you have simple logic-puzzle layouts and no weapons. These first enviornments are well designed and tense, forcing the player to actually avoid detection and hide when spotted, instead of the tranquilizer-gun antics featured in the last two games.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. I also am not a fan of the weapons you acquire later in each of the games. I think Kojima is aware of this and adds the challenges he does to the bosses (such as beating the game without killing anyone or beating bosses without lethal weapons nets you neat items), but I think he could pump that part up a bit more to really balance the game better.

The tranqs, on the other hand, really do it for me. The whole body-hiding concept of the second game really forced me to think about strategy.

[Spaff]

I liked MGS. I never played the whole way through the second one but I liked it. Not sure about the third one. Overall I like the series.

EDIT: Argh um pretend I'm Yufster which I actually am.

[Jake]

EDIT: Argh um pretend I'm Yufster which I actually am.

Get your own damn computer

[loonyboi]

MGS gets a lot of hate because the stories are always complete gibberish. I've played every Final Fantasy (except for XI -- that doesn't count), plus countless other japanese RPGs, and these are still total gibberish.

I really enjoyed the gameplay in MGS2 (never liked MGS1 myself) and really, really like Ac!d, but I'm not going to attempt to explain the storyline in either. They're so bad, it's like punishing people for enjoying those games.

I have MGS3, and I'm looking forward to trying it eventually...but I'm prepared for the story to be utter nonsense.

[loonyboi]

But (for me atleast) the games always get less and less fun the further I get through the game. And I think the reason is: guns! Guns break the game.

Pussy.

I kid, I kid

[JoeX111]

MGS gets a lot of hate because the stories are always complete gibberish. I've played every Final Fantasy (except for XI -- that doesn't count), plus countless other japanese RPGs, and these are still total gibberish.

...

They're so bad, it's like punishing people for enjoying those games.

I concur. I played all the way through MGS, thinking it pretty good, then grew more and more dissatisfied with it the more and more I thought about it. Rather like seeing Star Wars Episode 3, in fact. Though I haven't played any of the sequels, I've had friends try to explain the plot to me and found it asinine.

Hideo Kojima is overrated.