Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

[SuperBiasedMan]

34 minutes ago, Don't Go There said:

Many questions

 

To me, I take the sheer number of these questions as evidence that this is an intentional choice rather than sloppy or meandering story telling. I think the show has been withholding throughout. Audrey's absence, then teaser appearance and unsettling reveal without a conclusion is one of the more obvious ones.

 

Though I haven't yet concluded why it would be the case, I'm pretty convinced Frost and Lynch didn't just let a whole load of threads drop accidentally.

[TheArm]

Just an idea but jake and chris if you guys have time id love for you guys to rewatch the return from the beginning knowing what we know now. Twin Peaks Rewatch Rewatch.

[Captain Fram]

I'm going to be unpacking this for weeks to come. What a hell of a thing. 

[UnpopularTrousers]

I feel like Bad Coop's path to the sheriff's station is important.

 

He arrived there by going through a portal into a movie theater and was then fed through a tube into the movie screen. This movie world he went into was the cartoonish world of old Twin Peaks. "What is this?" he asks. This is where the bad Lucy jokes exist and where Andy walks around with a picnic basket. Even when Lucy shot Coop, it punctuated by Truman's hat doing an absurdly silly hop atop his head and Lucy delivering a punch line to the running phone gag. I think Lucy's terrible characterization this season may have actually been a deliberate choice to mock the squeaky clean style of the old show.

It is only through this travel from The Return to old Twin Peaks that the two Coopers were able to meet, because they don't actually coexist in a single world. At least not in sense of two separate entities who could run into one another on the street. It was then through the collision of these two worlds that we get the more realistic character of episode 18. 

[pabosher]

8 hours ago, lethalenforcer said:

 

- Hidden person Alice Tremond was asking questions (probably no significance but I thought was interesting)

 

 

I was CONVINCED it would turn out to be the actor who played Audrey’s husband. 

[Gamebeast23456]

17 minutes ago, TheArm said:

Just an idea but jake and chris if you guys have time id love for you guys to rewatch the return from the beginning knowing what we know now. Twin Peaks Rewatch Rewatch.

 

Failing this, because it would take a lot of time and might provide diminishing returns, I would like if you guys made some time to at least systematically go through some big moments throughout the season and discuss how the total work changed your perspective on them. 

[bill_crystals]

10 minutes ago, UnpopularTrousers said:

I think Lucy's terrible characterization this season may have actually been a deliberate choice to mock the squeaky clean style of the old show.

It is only through this travel from The Return to old Twin Peaks that the two Coopers were able to meet, because they don't actually coexist in a single world. 

 

Wow I love that interpretation of Episode 17's utter zaniness.  The Lucy and Andy stuff has felt so out of place for me this entire season, easily the worst/clumsiest feeling material of the Return.  Deliberately using them as part of the meta commentary sorta delights me, though.  After all, how could you not address the fact that this stuff originally aired on ABC in 1990.  It's one of the most unique things about Twin Peaks - and the Return, specifically, is kind of an unprecedented thing.

 

Truman's Looney Toons hat completely baffled and kind of annoyed me with its idiocy on first viewing.  But now I guess it might be a hilarious meta symbol from the perspective of new Twin Peaks looking back at old Twin Peaks.  Of course all the dumb lore rules established throughout the series culminate in an outrageously terrible Dragon Ball Z orb battle.  "This is what you wanted, right gang?"

 

This show is so stupid and good lol.

[lethalenforcer]

7 minutes ago, SuperBiasedMan said:

 

To me, I take the sheer number of these questions as evidence that this is an intentional choice rather than sloppy or meandering story telling. I think the show has been withholding throughout.

 

I agree with this. I woke up this morning still feeling confused about everything (including my own feelings), but also excited by the notion that there is still so much to try figuring out. And if those things are never fully discovered, and another episode never airs, it'll drive my curiousity to revisit original TP and The Return once in a while.

 

I agree with @Digger about the resolution scenes feeling like a quick afterthought. I would have really liked a few more "happy wrap up" scenes after the Bob/Freddie fisticuffs, but I'm not surprised it didn't happen. "I am the FBI" with hospital exit scene and the theme playing was the fan-service moment I'll always carry with me.

 

One tactic that never sits well with me is course-correction or anything that potentially undoes what we've previously seen. Still trying to figure out my feeling towards the Pete alt-flashback.

 

Everything from the NewCoop/Laura/Carrie story is officially consuming my mind.

[lethalenforcer]

16 minutes ago, pabosher said:

 

I was CONVINCED it would turn out to be the actor who played Audrey’s husband. 

 

I thought for a moment that alt-Leyland (named Billy or something we've heard) would appear there. I also thought that the waitress was going to be The Fireman's white lodge ladyfriend. This show does weird things to me as a scramble to predict or make sense of what's unfolding.

[dartmonkey]

Well, that's one for the grandkids.

[Emily]

2 hours ago, axis1500 said:

I'll just leave this here.

 

It's not about the bunny. 

[wbarnes4393]

Just now, Emily said:

 

It's not about the bunny. 

IS it about the bunny?

[Endofastart]

So I was thinking about this yesterday. Could Mr. C's/bob's electrical manipulation be related to the fact he was (apparently) born physically from nuclear energy. I guess a lot of WA is powered by nuclear, and I'm assuming that SD (just looked it up. Pathfinder is he plant's name)is also. Is it possible he can manipulate nuclear energy.  I understand this is a few episodes back, but the split that was suggested by the blast seems relevant especially since cooper now appears to be a whole person instead of an existential dichotomy. 

 

Episode 17 ended brilliantly and episode 18 ended terrifyingly. 

[MalcolmLittle]

Wow...

 

In Part 17, did Sarah block Cooper's attempt to change the past?

 

Dale tried to change the night of the murder, but it didn't work? Did it?

 

Cooper tried to change what he did to Diane, but did he?

 

Linda acted like she knew what they were trying to do, but seemed to despair regardless.

 

I can't stop thinking of Cole's dream. Who is the dreamer?

[Don't Go There]

1 hour ago, SuperBiasedMan said:

 

To me, I take the sheer number of these questions as evidence that this is an intentional choice rather than sloppy or meandering story telling. I think the show has been withholding throughout. Audrey's absence, then teaser appearance and unsettling reveal without a conclusion is one of the more obvious ones.

 

Though I haven't yet concluded why it would be the case, I'm pretty convinced Frost and Lynch didn't just let a whole load of threads drop accidentally.

I am certain that they were intentional. I am of the mind that some of the material was actually written, and then ignored by Lynch (or filmed and cut). He's done that before. But, using the Audrey storyline (such as it was) as an example, the fact that Frost and/or Lynch had their reasons does not make her storyline any less pointless. This is all said with the caveat that I might be missing something painfully obvious.

[SuperBiasedMan]

7 minutes ago, Don't Go There said:

I am certain that they were intentional. I am of the mind that some of the material was actually written, and then ignored by Lynch (or filmed and cut). He's done that before. But, using the Audrey storyline (such as it was) as an example, the fact that Frost and/or Lynch had their reasons does not make her storyline any less pointless. This is all said with the caveat that I might be missing something painfully obvious.

 

The thing is, I don't think a plot has to be resolved or relevant to not be pointless. Audrey's scant scenes still had an effect, and underlined the themes of cycles and being lost. I think leaving them out would be to the detriment of the show, even if it doesn't 'go anywhere'.

 

EDIT:
 

Quote

Linda acted like she knew what they were trying to do, but seemed to despair regardless.

 

My read was that she thought things would be different with the "real" Cooper back, but then his flat emotionless face just brought her back to memories of Bad Coop and realising she couldn't just separate them.

[pabosher]

11 minutes ago, MalcolmLittle said:

Wow...

 

In Part 17, did Sarah block Cooper's attempt to change the past?

 

Dale tried to change the night of the murder, but didn't it work? Did it?

 

Cooper tried to change what he did to Diane, but did he?

 

Linda acted like she knew what they were trying to do, but seemed to despair regardless.

 

I can't stop thinking of Cole's dream. Who is the dreamer?

 

 

And Cooper’s line from the superimposed face: “We live inside a dream.” It really did seem like a dream, with everyone there, one big happy family. 

[Gamebeast23456]

The more I think about the finale, the more I feel that this is a culmination of 25 years of Lynch's frustration with the idea that the death of Laura Palmer could be solved. This train of thought really became prominent after reading Film Crit Hulk's write-up of the finale at Vulture (http://www.vulture.com/2017/09/twin-peaks-the-return-finale-recap.html). 

 

A big meta-narrative problem in the original run of Twin Peaks was the ncultural demand for the end of the Laura Palmer investigation, for the production of a specific killer. The whole nation tuned in with the expectation that Dale Cooper would be able to work his way to the bottom of the mystery and bring closure to the death of Laura Palmer. However, as Dale delved deeper, he came to see that the specific abuse and death of Laura Palmer was also part of a broader pattern of behavior, and it's heavily implied that this behavior, though technically the result of BOB/Leland teaming up in this specific instance, is actually just another installment in age-old cycles of violence and abuse. America wants to find out who killed Laura Palmer, and Lynch is seemingly bored by the question because the answer, besides the very specifics of which body committed the act, are obvious from the first few episodes - we did. Our society did. We have enabled this to happen many times, and we seem no closer to stopping just because we make TV shows about it now. 

 

Part 17 gave a glimpse into what network executives would embrace in a conclusion, and our culture at large. All the good guys team up and they solve the case, they eliminate the bad guy. Dale Cooper's heroes journey comes to an end, and he is surrounded by his friends, new and old. After the action, he could visit the RR, hopefully before Norma puts in her last day, and eat his beloved cherry pie again. But, this just isn't Cooper's future - the superimposition of Dale Coopers face throughout the scene is inexplicable but it fills us with dread. As the buildup to this scene was happening, I thought we could be moving towards a surprisngly clean finale, but the second Cooper's face appeared I knew it wasn't so. 

 

If Lynch really cared about how the public views his work (which doesn't seem super plausible) he would probably reach peak annoyance at the fact that anybody expected this to go any other way. Or the hope that next season, Cooper is going to set everything right, he will be able to put together the shattered universe.. If that was the arc of this story, it would happen now. Lynch doesn't need five more years to figure out how to end the story on a happy note. Dale Cooper is smart, and charismatic, and kind, and determined, but he is one good man in the middle of an epidemic - and even he seems to hold elements of that social disease in him. Young women are going to keep being thrown into the maw of American life, and Dale Coopers will continue to try and put together the pieces of other people's lives, but it's just not going to work out, and it won't ever stop.  We are on a track of infinity, as Phillip Jeffries shows us. 

 

Which leaves me here - what are we to make of Dale Cooper? Is he just a tragic hero trying to make sense of the senseless? Is he accountable for his world? Should we emulate his example? If enough people did emulate him, could it change things? Or would Bad Coop always exist in all of us? 

 

What are we to make of Laura Palmer? Who is she, really? Does she represent something bigger than her own tragic life? Is there hope for people like her, if people like her is a valid category of person to consider? 

 

This went on long, but I suppose it's fitting for the last ride. 

[UnpopularTrousers]

6 minutes ago, pabosher said:

And Cooper’s line from the superimposed face: “We live inside a dream.” It really did seem like a dream, with everyone there, one big happy family. 

It was very much like the end of Wizard of Oz.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone noted how similar the golden ball looks to Glinda's bubble as it floats around the screen in Oz? 

[Endofastart]

1 minute ago, pabosher said:

 

 

And Cooper’s line from the superimposed face: “We live inside a dream.” It really did seem like a dream, with everyone there, one big happy family. 

I read that stone faced as the real cooper and the happenings in the sheriff's station as the dream. It was like a hackey end to a tv show intentionally. Dreaming of a better life he'll never get to live. Same thing when dougie woke up from the coma.  Bulk of the season was in his head.

[plasticflesh]

2 hours ago, Don't Go There said:

I feel it is important to preface this with the statement that I really liked “The Return”

 

I feel you on this list of grievances. This, to me, is the anxiety created when a story endures too many sequels. It is the feeling of a living being kept alive beyond the point of death. Yes, I am making another Dark Souls reference. I feel like Dark Souls 3 is a comment on stories that endure too many sequels, the story itself becomes a zombie abomination. This is why Stephen King was right to instruct Lindeloff to end LOST. Stories need to have endings, to feel like balanced compositions, or to feel like.

 

But maybe Twin Peaks is about the impossibility of endings, the impossibility of finding resolution. If it's still about soap operas, it might be fitting to end it in a way that invites a soap opera style reboot into the dark and edgy universe of premium cable serial television.

[Don't Go There]

Just now, SuperBiasedMan said:

 

The thing is, I don't think a plot has to be resolved or relevant to not be pointless. Audrey's scant scenes still had an effect, and underlined the themes of cycles and being lost. I think leaving them out would be to the detriment of the show, even if it doesn't 'go anywhere'.

I also think leaving them out would be to the detriment of the show. But it wasn't even an unresolved plot. It was an abandoned one. I think that's also to the detriment of the show. It's not that Audrey's fate is ambiguous, it's that it is simply absent. As is any hint of significance regarding the amphibious bug that crawled into the girl's (whoever she was) mouth. And on and on. No, I didn't expect a straightforward conclusion. I actually liked what I saw. But I am baffled- and not in a good way- by what I didn't see. I didn't need the Audrey plot to resolve so much as I don't for the life of me understand why, if it was just going to be dropped, it was there in the first place.

 

I don't know. I need some time, I think.

[Lechimp]

5 minutes ago, UnpopularTrousers said:

It was very much like the end of Wizard of Oz.

 

Speaking of which, has anyone noted how similar the golden ball looks to Glinda's bubble as it floats around the screen in Oz? 

 

It wouldn't be the first time he referenced Wizard of Oz

[SuperBiasedMan]

1 minute ago, Don't Go There said:

I didn't need the Audrey plot to resolve so much as I don't for the life of me understand why, if it was just going to be dropped, it was there in the first place.

It's hard to explain but I'm wondering if it was there specifically to be dropped. A lot of this show has created unease in so many ways, this is certainly one of them.

[Mister]

I would actually love if, once they wrap up this season, if Chris & Jake could do a few more episode covering each of Lynch's movies, since they're some of my favorite people at looking at his work.