Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

[Mentalgongfu]

@Nordelnob

 

I'd agree the tone was empty, down or depressing; I just can't agree that it was supposed to leave me feeling the same way, because it didn't exactly do that. It mostly left me feeling ponderous. 

 

@UnpopularTrousers 

Personally, I'm trying not to dissect the intent beyond any meaning I can grasp for myself. But I am admittedly a little annoyed at the idea that has been spread throughout the season by some posters, not necessarily those at this site, that The Return was just an intentional troll. And that might come across in some of my posts. I think it's the only interpretation I would bother to argue against. It bothers me because it assumes both the intent of the artist and that any viewer who liked it is just a "fanboy," a mark who will buy whatever Lynch is selling, regardless of its value, and implies a superiority on the part of the viewer who is dissatisfied compared to someone whose reaction is more positive.

 

The choice need not be binary, and shouldn't be. I loved The Return, but I won't know how I feel about the ending for a while. I loved the sweeping scene. I loved Wally Brando, and I came to love Dougie. But that's me. Being bored or upset, or feeling there was wasted time is just as valid a reaction, even though it's not mine. Thinking all 18 hours was just meant as a big middle finger to the audience is probably a valid reaction too, but it's one that I disagree with strongly enough to argue about. 

[Nordelnob]

7 minutes ago, UnpopularTrousers said:

I actually thought something was totally off about the behind-the-back Jack Nance body double on the dock. It actually took me out of it for a second because, like you, I thought it couldn't possibly be that hard to find someone who looks close enough from behind.

I didn't notice that, but I was pretty impressed by all of the other stuff. I was trying to figure out how they did it. It seemed like they either had a bunch of stuff that they filmed and never used with Laura, or maybe they did a face switch on another actress? I'm not sure.

[Nordelnob]

7 minutes ago, Mentalgongfu said:

@Nordelnob

 

I'd agree the tone was empty, down or depressing; I just can't agree that it was supposed to leave me feeling the same way, because it didn't exactly do that. It mostly left me feeling ponderous. 

 

@UnpopularTrousers 

Personally, I'm trying not to dissect the intent beyond any meaning I can grasp for myself. But I am admittedly a little annoyed at the idea that has been spread throughout the season by some posters, not necessarily those at this site, that The Return was just an intentional troll. And that might come across in some of my posts. I think it's the only interpretation I would bother to argue against. It bothers me because it assumes both the intent of the artist and that any viewer who liked it is just a "fanboy," a mark who will buy whatever Lynch is selling, regardless of its value, and implies a superiority on the part of the viewer who is dissatisfied compared to someone whose reaction is more positive.

 

The choice need not be binary, and shouldn't be. I loved The Return, but I won't know how I feel about the ending for a while. I loved the sweeping scene. I loved Wally Brando, and I came to love Dougie. But that's me. Being bored or upset, or feeling there was wasted time is just as valid a reaction, even though it's not mine. Thinking all 18 hours was just meant as a big middle finger to the audience is probably a valid reaction too, but it's one that I disagree with strongly enough to argue about. 

I gotcha. I may have phrased that poorly. I suppose what feeling people take away from it is going to vary a lot more than your average TV show.

This season was certainly not a troll. David Lynch is just a weird guy. A very, very weird guy.

I have thoroughly enjoyed The Return. I'm posting on this forum after all. I'm engaged and interested in these characters. The way I feel about the finale, I have felt several times about other moments/episodes this season. And some of them my feelings have changed. And of course some of them haven't. If I can say anything about it though, almost every scene has been good, even if some of them didn't seem to serve much of a purpose to the overall story, or character development. That David Lynch knows how to put together a good scene, whether it's comedic or horrific. And he knows how to create a compelling mystery. Paying them off or resolving them is another question! Lynch seems to be allergic to that!

[LadyHawke]

I took the changes in the motel and the car to be a change in the timeline that just wasn't fully remarked on. Jeffries did say something about it being "really slippery in here," meaning, I think, that time is malleable and you can't really capture the moments as solidly as you like. 

 

Poot-tee-weet.

Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in time.

[BonusWavePilot]

@Digger

"You know it wants the food or the toy, and you are enjoying its reaction, and then continuing to promise and withhold is disrespectful."

 

I think we can reasonably assume that Lynch & Frost know we want certain things, but 'you are enjoying its reaction' is supposition, and when was any promise made?

 

"You'll never know, and I've not given you enough information to understand."

 

But why do you assume you have a right to?  If they want to make something where there isn't enough information to be sure about anything, when did they agree to do otherwise?

 

I get why the things you mention are frustrating, or not how you wish this was made, but I still can't get to disrespect, because I don't think we were owed or promised anything different.  Lynch and Frost are not beholden to our expectations.  (Well, not in an artistic sense anyway.  Perhaps financially, but I don't think either of them are likely to starve if TP bombs)

[Joewintergreen]

3 hours ago, Frohike said:

Some puzzling phrases when Cooper talks to Jeffries:

 

"--Philip?

 

--Please be specific

 

--The date: February 23, 1989"

Jeffries skips the acknowledgement and gets straight to business. It's implied that he just needs a date to send Cooper into. It seems like Jeffries can use the same "tech" that the Fireman uses to send people anywhere at any time. I'm actually starting to wonder whether Jeffries "finding" Judy was just a lie; when BadCoop finished his conversation with Jeffries and asked about Judy he was told that he had just met Judy.  I think most viewers assumed this meant the woman who opened the door.  I think it was the entity behind the door: Jeffries himself.

 

"There may be... someone. Did you ask me this?"

 

This might imply that someone else had come to him with a similar request to go back to that night. Who could this be? Is Audrey traveling in the same space as Agent Cooper, maybe lurking behind the walls as she usually did. What did she contribute to the dream of that timeline?

Little correction: Jeffries says "you've already met Judy" not "you just met Judy" so nothing to indicate it's that woman.

 

Also, for whatever reason I interpreted "Phillip" "Please be specific" "date" as Phillip wanting Coop to be specific as to what version of Jeffries he wanted to talk to, and Coop specified Phillip Jeffries as of that date. Your interpretation seems more likely, my brain was just leaping all over the place during those episodes. What a crazy ride. 

[mikemariano]

Was that the frogmoth sound when Laura disappears?

 

Also I liked the prominent white horse figure in Carrie's house—just like Sarah Palmer's old vision!

[Mentalgongfu]

1 minute ago, mikemariano said:

Was that the frogmoth sound when Laura disappears?

 

Also I liked the prominent white horse figure in Carrie's house—just like Sarah Palmer's old vision!

 

I believe it was the same sound, which is also one of the sounds the Fireman played to Cooper on his old phonograph in Part I when he was still in the Lodge and tells him to "listen to the sounds."

[The Great Went]

18 hours ago, Hansel Bosch said:

 

It was also a Mark Frost joint, which often seems to be forgotten. But I think for Episode 18 Frost was told he was not really needed...

 

 

 

Yeah, it seemed kinda like Episode 17 was Mark Frost's finale and 18 was Lynch's. 

[SuoTempore]

Any artist worth their salt regardless of form or format, makes it according purely to their own vision.

 

As soon as they start trying to think about the audience, what will be liked/disliked, what will be popular/unpopular, their original vision will be altered and almost always weakened.

 

[dartmonkey]

1 hour ago, malkav11 said:

Re: the scene with Laura and Coop in the woods and the scene of Pete fishing...

 

As far as I could tell at no point during this season did they use archival footage that was not previously seen in the aired Twin Peaks seasons, Fire Walk With Me, or the cut scenes that form The Missing Pieces. Since obviously Laura never interacts with a 25 years older Cooper during those scenes in Fire Walk With Me/The Missing Pieces (or indeed, with Cooper at all outside of the Red Room), it can't be Sheryl Lee in that new sequence, and it doesn't really look like her either.

I'm confused at the confusion. It's 2017 Sheryl Lee in a wig. Lynch plays with the focus and uses the darkness/B&W as much as possible, but it's definitely Sheryl Lee playing teenage Laura Palmer.

[The Great Went]

3 minutes ago, dartmonkey said:

I'm confused at the confusion. It's 2017 Sheryl Lee in a wig. Lynch plays with the focus and uses the darkness/B&W as much as possible, but it's definitely Sheryl Lee playing teenage Laura Palmer.

 I don't know if it's my computer or what but it looked a whole lot not like teenage Laura Palmer and I just figured they CGI'd "youth filter" on Sheryl Lee's face. IMO when teenage Laura Palmer talks to Cooper it was the weakest part of the episode to me, and one of the more over-the-top-but-not-clearing-the-hurdle visual effects. I was bummed that Cooper tried to save Laura, it seemed very naive for a guy who had been through what he'd been through -- and yeah, I guess now I don't understand if he actually Back To The Future'd all of Twin Peaks or not. 

[Nordelnob]

I was just watching the episode again and something about the dead man caught my attention. The bullet wound seems to angle upwards, which means it may possibly be a suicide. 

I just thought that was strange because there has been speculation about how Becky was sort of a stand in or a "reincarnation" for Laura. And Steven shot himself.

Or maybe it's nothing. It's probably nothing. 

 

Also, they use the same "Lost Highway" Mr. C driving at night shot when "real" Cooper is driving. Almost like they are hitting us over the head with the fact that Bad Coop is now a part of Cooper. Well, that and all of the other clues. His behavior. The ruthless way he dispatched those guys in the diner. That sex scene.

But the theory about Cooper giving up his innocent, chipper side when he created Dougie 2.0 seems just as plausible to me.

I really want to believe that these are all meaningful clues, and that it's all going to build to something, hopefully we get another season.

[marblize]

2 hours ago, Digger said:

Now I have tried to make it meaningful.  I have decided Dougie was Cooper's chance at happiness, and that by creating the tulpa he has given up a part of himself and allowed that part domestic bliss and no Blue Rose wackiness or giant evil entity insanity.  That Coop gets a happy ending.  I have very little in the show to back this up.  I don't know if new Dougie has much awareness of the world.  He said only one word, "Home."  Is he able to do and say more.  Dougie one was not a great husband, was that because he was made of the vices evil Coop was made of.  Don't know.  No explanation.  INformation deliberately withheld.  Disrespectful.  You'll never know, and I've not given you enough information to understand.

 

Man, I literally don't see how you reach the concluding disappointment of this quote from the start of this quote. It's a really interesting interpretation that makes sense, that i have not seen, and that I have not thought of. It reads as fun and valuable exploratory curiosity but you spin it into begrudging empty digging. wtf!

 

edit: wait, are you mocking others who came up with this theory or is this your theory?

[Nordelnob]

1 hour ago, The Great Went said:

 I don't know if it's my computer or what but it looked a whole lot not like teenage Laura Palmer and I just figured they CGI'd "youth filter" on Sheryl Lee's face. IMO when teenage Laura Palmer talks to Cooper it was the weakest part of the episode to me, and one of the more over-the-top-but-not-clearing-the-hurdle visual effects. I was bummed that Cooper tried to save Laura, it seemed very naive for a guy who had been through what he'd been through -- and yeah, I guess now I don't understand if he actually Back To The Future'd all of Twin Peaks or not. 

Yeah, she was wearing some pretty baggy clothes which probably did a descent job of covering up the weight. And they digitally de-aged her face I'm guessing. De-aging has come a long way since X-men 3 LOL. The fact that it's a dark scene probably goes a long way in making it pretty seamless as well. and things like keeping her out of focus (and the fact the scene was shot mostly in black and white). It all cut together pretty seamlessly I thought. I wasn't exactly looking for seams or anything though.

[marblize]

2 minutes ago, Nordelnob said:

It all cut together pretty seamlessly I thought. I wasn't exactly looking for seams or anything though.

 

Yeah, if I can accept cheesy floating balls of blackened flesh and caged Mr. C's heads and Major Briggs heads in the red room and the theatre, I'm kind of ok with accepting the idea of whatever any CGI sketch is trying to get across

[Lechimp]

I assumed that Coop went to save Laura because the show mentioned at some point that she's the key to all of this and if the Fireman mentions Richard and Linda to Coop, then he knew that was going to happen and is part of the plan? 

 

But i I have no idea and I'm just guessing.

[unimural]

6 hours ago, Digger said:

I have decided Dougie was Cooper's chance at happiness, and that by creating the tulpa he has given up a part of himself and allowed that part domestic bliss and no Blue Rose wackiness or giant evil entity insanity.  That Coop gets a happy ending.  I have very little in the show to back this up.  I don't know if new Dougie has much awareness of the world.  He said only one word, "Home."  Is he able to do and say more.  Dougie one was not a great husband, was that because he was made of the vices evil Coop was made of.  Don't know.  No explanation.  INformation deliberately withheld.  Disrespectful.  You'll never know, and I've not given you enough information to understand.

 

Based on Jake's take on Dougie, I always partially felt that DougieCoop was a reward for Special Agent Dale Cooper. A chance to experience what having a family would be like. DougieCoop being such a MrMagoo, living a charmed life surrounded by gangsters with heart of gold only seemed to emphasize this. It was a respite for Cooper, before he has the move on.

 

That take doesn't really make that much sense, but I am fond of it.

 

[Nordelnob]

13 minutes ago, MechaTofuPirate said:

I assumed that Coop went to save Laura because the show mentioned at some point that she's the key to all of this

"Laura is the key to all this, if we get Laura working. 'Cause she's a funnier character than we've ever had..."

-David Lynch

[Aether]

8 hours ago, UnpopularTrousers said:

 

So I don't think it's that Lynch didn't care, I think its that he cared about different things than you. 

 

 

Incorrect, though I understand what you're getting at. I didn't bring a set of expectations to this season. I've been a fan of Lynch's films for a long time, I assumed the return would be elliptical and challenging. Given the way the first iteration of TP ended, it always seemed very clear that Lynch is more interested in complex human feelings and vagaries of self than story/lore. That's just his style.

 

I would agree that Lynch cared about different things than I did if The Return consisted entirely of those final two hours. The problem is that we had to wait through 16 hours of events that we now know to be largely pointless...and that intentionally set up expectations Lynch ultimately laughed off (Freddie/Bob) or simply discarded (Audrey). To give a more obvious example: there were many scenes of Dougie/Coop seeing things he almost recognized, having moments of alertness and "almost" waking up. I think it's fair that many people thought Cooper was going to wake up and be himself again...those were the pieces Lynch put in place. Now, it's more clear: the entire Dougie/Cooper story line served no purpose. The build up fizzled out...Cooper never truly woke up...we got a few token minutes of Cooper one liners and then he was Richard, an Evil Cooper-esque figure.

 

The point is: I didn't want things and feel disappointed that they never happened...I wanted the things that were there to mean something. I didn't want to waste 16 hours of my life feeling and thinking all so that I could get a finale that spit in my face and then...once again...just stranded Cooper in a state of failure. Those 16 hours of build up are more of the problem for me than the finale.

 

The one story line that ultimately proved meaningful happened right at the beginning. Two idiots staring at a box and getting attacked...that meant something. That was Lynch indicating his views about the audience and the art. I don't think the return was simply trolling or making fun of the audience. I think it was a complex, difficult creation that was specifically about the artist and the audience. For whatever reason, and I blame myself, I didn't get the message. The finale made his antagonism for the viewer far more explicit. I regret having watched this season. And unlike some folks, I don't think there is any chance Lynch intends a follow up. That was it. He decided that his last run with TP would be this bullshit finale. It's just bitterly disappointing.

[Captain Fram]

I haven't gotten ANY work done today. I'm still reeling.

 

My thoughts have coalesced a bit more and I'm starting to get a clearer sense of what I think happened - thematics aside - on a purely character/plot level:

 

Bad Coop goes to the second set of coordinates which takes him into the white lodge/theatre room. He intends to warp to Judy/Sarah Palmer (evidenced by the image of the Palmer house on the screen) but the Fireman swipes left on that shit and sends him to the Twin Peaks sheriff's office instead. Bad Coop is confused - "What is this?" - but sees it as an opportunity to visitmurder some old friends. The Fireman sent him there knowing that Freddie Hulkhand and Coop Actual are converging on the scene, and they have the powerglove to kill Bob, and the ring to finally send Bad Coop back to the lodge.

 

The Bob-orb (Bob-bomb?) fight happens - and SUCCESS! At this point, we're in happy ending land. Bob is banished, Bad Coop is out of the picture, and Diane is unlocked from her Naido prison. Coop Actual relishes a final moment with his collected friends. In his heart, and with knowledge gained from 25 years of whatever the hell happened to him in the red room, Coop seizes the opportunity to destroy the malevolent evil Judy. To do this he needs (the One) Laura Palmer, and he needs her alive.

 

Coop Actual uses his hotel room key to open a door to Motel De Woodsmen, which also happens to be the source of the ringing sound at the Great Northern. There he meets multiple Grammy-Award-winning kettle Phillip Jeffries, who sends him to the past at Coop's request, specifically the night of her murder.

 

Back in 1989 now. After incorrectly deducing that James is not cool, Laura Palmer storms off into the forest to meet her untimely demise. This time though, she is intercepted by Cooper, who tells her he's taking her home. Given that Coop's on a mission to eliminate Judy, this to me says that even back then, Sarah Palmer had "Judy" within her. Perhaps it was latent back then, awakening fully only after a great trauma (like the murder of your daughter and the revelation that it was your husband, perhaps) This lends validity to the theory that Sarah Palmer is in fact the young girl who swallows the bug in Ep 8.

 

I digress. Coop leads Laura by hand through the night. As they approach the warp zone Laura is suddenly whisked away, leaving Coop alone. I believe this is the work of Judy, for she cannot kill Laura on her own - Sarah Palmer repeatedly smashes a glass bottle into the photograph of Laura, and there's not a scratch on it - but she can send her away, to another place and time, where she might forget herself completely, and Coop might not follow.

 

But Coop is nothing if not persistent. Heeding advice from the Fireman and other lodge entities (as well as Leland Palmer himself) he continues the hunt for Laura, driving with Diane to a specific location flanked by huge electrical towers. Coop warns Diane, "Once we cross it could all be different," and after sharing a final kiss as the Cooper and Diane we know, they breach the veil.

 

-

 

I'm hazy on the events from here, but I have my theories. I might amend this post after I've thought on it more. Thanks for reading!

[Digger]

5 hours ago, marblize said:

 

Man, I literally don't see how you reach the concluding disappointment of this quote from the start of this quote. It's a really interesting interpretation that makes sense, that i have not seen, and that I have not thought of. It reads as fun and valuable exploratory curiosity but you spin it into begrudging empty digging. wtf!

 

edit: wait, are you mocking others who came up with this theory or is this your theory?

It's my theory, but Lynch and Frost have not given me enough info to give it any legs.

[utilityfrog]

On the specific issue of the newly introduced "Judy" mythology: I can't help but view this as an explicit criticism of the idea of imposing concrete lore on things that should be mysterious, ethereal and unknowable. It's a blatant retcon seemingly tossed in at the last moment. So, sometime during late season 2 (presumably?), Cooper, Briggs and Gordon Cole met up and hatched this plan to go after Judy? Okay then.

 

Thing is, I don't if Lynch and Frost intended it to be perceived this way. I know that people have found that the "Judy" phrase may mean something like "explanation", and that certainly seems like something Lynch would regard as negative.

 

I guess it's specifically the last-minute placement of this revelation in the story and it's blatant retcon nature that seems so mocking to me. Perhaps if this information was revealed earlier in the season and worked into the story more it would seem quite different, even if the specific information revealed was the same.

[ThatThomas]

To me, the introduction of Judy as this larger evil feels like a solution to the regrettable unavailability of Frank Silva. Especially if there is going to be a season 4 (which I'm frankly inclined to think there will be).

 

As to what actually happens in these last two episodes, I agree with Captain Fram (as well as the many others who've proposed similar theories here and elsewhere) that Laura is whisked away by Judy (symbolically shown by Sarah smashing the picture) and hidden away into another reality where she can't be "the one".

 

When I first watched the finale two days ago, I was cautiously satisfied. However, my appreciation and love for it has grown more and more since then and right now, I can't imagine it ending any other way. I certainly was never expecting any overt resolution, since Lynch had spent 25 years stating his disapproval of the central mystery having been resolved in the first place.

[dartmonkey]

 

People who say they've wasted 18 hours because they were pointless - did you really get no enjoyment from any of it? I just don't get that. The finale could have been 2 hours of a turd emoji on screen and the preceding episodes would still be 16 incredibly stimulating and though-provoking hours. I've spent the whole time eyes wide, leaning towards the TV.

 

The Return has been almost all very good stuff, pregnant with meaning and commentary. Most of it probably won't even hit me until I've watched and rewatched it again, but there's space in the season for all sorts of interpretations and readings, many of which we've read here. The idea that Lynch is giving his audience the finger - it's just so petty. It screams of the need to have one's time and ideas validated in a very particular way, without being challenged or asked to question anything. Delayed gratification seems only to be tolerated if that eventual gratification conforms to extremely rigid conventional parameters. Would 18 hours of thumbs up and pie-noshing have pleased these people? Those moments were all there - there was so much fan service in the Return! I'm glad that they've also managed to include the genuine 'wtf'ness of TP and not the mid-late S2 brand of it.

 

I am so excited to see this all again on a bluray. Some very dark scenes again in the finale - I need to rewatch it soon. I'm also gagging for the Final Dossier audiobook, although I think it will mainly concentrate on Twin Peaks characters between 1990 and 2015.