Double Fine - Kickstarter - MASSIVE CHALICE

[sclpls]

I appreciate the inclusion of gay relationships in the game. I hate when people complain about things being historically inaccurate in fantasy games of all things. Similar complaints crop up when people of color appear in fantasy games too...

[Argobot]

I appreciate the inclusion of gay marriage in the game. I hate when people complain about things being historically inaccurate in fantasy games of all things. Similar complaints crop up when people of color appear in fantasy games too...

 

Oh cool, I hadn't heard this! Did they talk about it on the DOTA cast? I hope this means you can play as female heroes as well. The Kickstarter video was a little unclear (for me) on those details.

 

Edit: Nevermind, found a link to an interview where Muir talks about this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/06/06/how-kickstarter-got-gay-marriage-into-massive-chalice/

The whole thing seems pretty amazing, and makes me more excited to play the game.

[mikemariano]

I enjoy the fact that Muir is thinking about this systemically.

 

One of the suggestions was to allow couples – male/female or otherwise - to contribute to the good of the realm via means other than childbirth. So couples could raise children or research technology. That’s one interesting way to handle it. And then if you couple it with the ability to foster children, I think that’s a way you could have same-sex couples in the game.

 

This ties into his comments on Dota Today, where he was reluctant to reduce his heroes to simple animal husbandry.  He wants to offer more on the non-combat side and this provides a perfect opportunity to do so.

[castorp]

Oh cool, I hadn't heard this! Did they talk about it on the DOTA cast? I hope this means you can play as female heroes as well. The Kickstarter video was a little unclear (for me) on those details.

 

Edit: Nevermind, found a link to an interview where Muir talks about this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/06/06/how-kickstarter-got-gay-marriage-into-massive-chalice/

The whole thing seems pretty amazing, and makes me more excited to play the game.

There is also this thread in the Double Fine forums that I thought went amazingly well for two or three pages before it turned into an internet-argument between internet people (but still on a somewhat high level, when you look at the internet in general - due to one side of the argument being an outstanding bullshit-sponge). And it has some input regarding the matter by Brad and other DFers early on. Though the RPS write-up won't induce so much anger as some of the posts in the thread do, so I guess that's the better read.

 

Anyway, very great move by DF, they are fantastic!

[I_smell]

The idea of a couple being researchers gives me a great mental-image of a scientist power-couple.

[mikemariano]

The idea of a male/female couple being researchers gives me a great mental-image of a scientist power-couple.

 

MASSIVE CHALICE SPOILER ALERT

Heroes Pierre and Marie die of radiation poisoning.  The bonus they pass on to the next generation is their daughter dying of leukemia.

[I_smell]

...Passing on vulnerabillities and sicknesses would be pretty sad.

[TheLastBaron]

As soon as I saw what this game was I knew it was by far the Kickstarter that made me the most interested of any Kickstarter thus far.  This game is basically made specifically for me, everything about it is stuff I love.  After listening to Brad on Dota Today I decided to up my pledge to get my name in the game.  As I said in the DT episode thread, "Baron" is probably a pretty lame name to have in this context, but I don't particularly care as this game seems too good.

[Gormongous]

This ties into his comments on Dota Today, where he was reluctant to reduce his heroes to simple animal husbandry.  He wants to offer more on the non-combat side and this provides a perfect opportunity to do so.

 

I actually don't get the downside of the "animal husbandry" angle, besides the bad PR of making the developer and the player come off like eugenics-obsessed maniacs. Speaking as someone who's invested heart and soul in Crusader Kings II, the time and effort you spend breeding an heir makes for a ready-to-go player investment in them, whether they fulfill your wishes or not. Sure, it's more like getting attached to a prize heifer than being in love with your child, but it's still something pretty singular.

[Tanukitsune]

Hmm, turn based strategy games seem to be the only kind I can play, unless you count the "Pikmin style". My main problem with strategy games is that many assume you know how to play and that I'll be stuck feeling like an idiot. :|

[TheLastBaron]

Where do you stand on something like the Total War where there's real time tactics and the strategy is still turn based

[Tanukitsune]

I got Shogun Total War on sale, I liked investing in my town and upgrading it, but I disliked the combat enough to set it to auto battle. :|

[mikemariano]

I actually don't get the downside of the "animal husbandry" angle, besides the bad PR of making the developer and the player come off like eugenics-obsessed maniacs.

 

Yeah, it's not a huge downside; I think Muir wants his players to have Dwarf Fortress-esque stories for their bloodlines in the backs of their minds, and that's hard if mechanically they're all cows.

[Patrick R]

Personally I think the whole theme of breeding heroes is really gross and regressive, but I am not at all this game's target market (not into turn based strategy). I imagine if I was and the gameplay intrigued me enough, I'd be able to look past it, but as a casual observer turning the concept of "good breeding" into a game mechanic isn't just kind of icky, it's antithetical to the kind of fiction I'm interested in. I don't want stories where genetically heroic figures do great deeds based on destiny and fate, I want stories where ordinary people do extraordinary things because it's what they have to.

 

But at any rate, hearing more about the idea of aging heroes again reminded me of Robin & Marian, and made me more interested in it. I wonder if Brad Muir has seen it and, if not, it'd be possible to get him a copy*. It's hard to imagine pulling off that kind of intimate wistfulness in a simulation of this scale, but if the intent is indeed to get the character to really care about the aging heroes and their arc, it's certainly a good example of it.

 

*I'm literally willing to buy a copy and ship it to the Double Fine offices. I can't help it, I'm obsessed with this movie.

[I_smell]

I can't believe I didn't know this, but someone on the Double Fine forums just told me to look at the Kickstarter Updates

 

HOUR-LONG DESIGN CHAT??? 

 

[SecretAsianMan]

Personally I think the whole theme of breeding heroes is really gross and regressive, but I am not at all this game's target market (not into turn based strategy). I imagine if I was and the gameplay intrigued me enough, I'd be able to look past it, but as a casual observer turning the concept of "good breeding" into a game mechanic isn't just kind of icky, it's antithetical to the kind of fiction I'm interested in. I don't want stories where genetically heroic figures do great deeds based on destiny and fate, I want stories where ordinary people do extraordinary things because it's what they have to.

 

I kind of feel the same way.  I hate it when a story makes the protagonist important because of a long lost bloodline or, (to paraphrase Jake) it turns out your parents are the king and queen of space, or some other shit that like. 

 

Historically speaking, genetic lines and dynastic houses are very important and maybe that kind of perspective will work it's way into the narrative.  But at the same time the first narrative my mind came up with after seeing the pitch involved breeding a superior race, which I have to say creeped me out.  I felt like Jake comparing a group in Dragon Age to the Hilter Youth.

 

Sorry for picking on you Jake.

[clyde]

Personally I think the whole theme of breeding heroes is really gross and regressive, but I am not at all this game's target market (not into turn based strategy). I imagine if I was and the gameplay intrigued me enough, I'd be able to look past it, but as a casual observer turning the concept of "good breeding" into a game mechanic isn't just kind of icky, it's antithetical to the kind of fiction I'm interested in. I don't want stories where genetically heroic figures do great deeds based on destiny and fate, I want stories where ordinary people do extraordinary things because it's what they have to.

 

This is so interesting to me. Is this rooted in a repulsion to eugenics?

What gets me about this (in the context of what I imagine Massive Chalice will be) is that you may be more capable of getting something out of it because the game relies on a perspective you despise. If I was to play it, I would enjoy turning romantic relationships into efficient systems for my power goals. It's enjoyable enough getting to betroth loveless marriages and insisting on the importance of legacy and tradition. But you would get to play knowing in your heart that it is the wrong thing to do, complemented by having to survive while maintaining your ethical identity.

[Patrick R]

This is so interesting to me. Is this rooted in a repulsion to eugenics?

 

Mostly. And also general gross traditions of class struggle. The idea of defining humans by the achievements, social standing, and genetics of their family is just really repellent to me. I don't think Brad Muir is a secret racist or anything, I think he just thought of a neat gameplay mechanic, based on the idea of a conflict happening over a large time-scale, but the unfortunate real-world implications of that mechanic have always been not so great.

 

It's actually a part of the world of Harry Potter that turned me off as well. At least to my memory: I read the first 5 books years and years ago, so I'm open to the idea that I completely wrong about it. But the idea of the sorting hat, of certain families always going to certain houses, and the idea that the people are largely identified by their house identity is kind of weird to me, especially in such widely-read children's literature. Maybe it got more nuanced than "Gryffindor is virtuous, Slytherin are bastards, who-gives-a-fuck about Hufflepuff, etc." later on, but that sort of always distanced me from it.

[Ucantalas]

I kind of feel the same way.

A person should not be judged by the actions of their parents.

But I also think it makes for a really cool game mechanic. The problem is when it starts to become a little too... human. When human attributes get blamed on genetics, its weird. Whereas if it were a breeding game about... bears, and the bear breeds changed speed strength etc, I feel like it wouldn't be as weird because its a little like how genetics actually work? (I am not a scientist, and did not take even basic biology in high school, so this statement is most likely very wrong)

 

[brkl]

Making the heroes more than cattle allows you to bring up the nature vs. nurture problem. Arrange loveless marriages between two great fighters? They'll make you children who are physically fit but suffer from massive personality problems that make them really difficult to use.

[brkl]

Oh! Maybe you have the kids put through heavy fighting training from a young age. They'll become great fighters, but later they'll be shitty parents because of their shitty childhood and their offspring will again have all sorts of problems. Put them up for adoption? They'll need really good parents, otherwise they'll grow up resentful of not knowing their biological parents. But the new parents probably won't be great fighters, so the kids still won't grow up as best possible fighters, they'll want to paint or something.

 

And maybe your father is a great hero. That's some pressure to put on a child. It could affect him in a number of ways.

[Patrick R]

If Massive Chalice did a 180 12 hours in, and became about the story of a single hero's resentment of the whole hero-breeding-industrial-complex, eventually going AWOL from the whole thing and raising children in the woods to be simple farmers away from violence (no cattle, too many bad memories, just beets), and then that hero gets tracked down and killed, so that hero's kid vows vengeance against the immortal king character you were playing as for the first 12 hours...

 

...well, I imagine there'd be a lot of angry Kickstarter backers. But it'd be pretty sweet.

[Gormongous]

Historically speaking, genetic lines and dynastic houses are very important and maybe that kind of perspective will work it's way into the narrative.  But at the same time the first narrative my mind came up with after seeing the pitch involved breeding a superior race, which I have to say creeped me out.  I felt like Jake comparing a group in Dragon Age to the Hilter Youth.

 

Yeah, I think there's a fine line that all fantasy has to walk between evoking historical flavor and buying into it. We touched upon this in the "Is Game of Thrones Sexist" thread. In the case of Massive Chalice, the medieval fixation on pedigree turns into eugenics when systematized in a video game.

 

I think the best way is to take a page out of the Crusader Kings II book again, with no trait or combination of traits having a clear advantage over others. It would be easy to breed a glass cannon, specialized to the hilt at one thing, but a well-rounded individual would happen only through luck and foresight. Upbringing would play into this by operating the same. That way, there's an interesting choice between breeding a better hero through genetics and building happy families through love matches, with the confluence of the two being an exciting and fulfilling event.

[Erkki]

If Massive Chalice did a 180 12 hours in, and became about the story of a single hero's resentment of the whole hero-breeding-industrial-complex, eventually going AWOL from the whole thing and raising children in the woods to be simple farmers away from violence (no cattle, too many bad memories, just beets), and then that hero gets tracked down and killed, so that hero's kid vows vengeance against the immortal king character you were playing as for the first 12 hours...

 

...well, I imagine there'd be a lot of angry Kickstarter backers. But it'd be pretty sweet.

Amazing idea. I can't think of any game that has done this.

[I Saw Dasein]

It's just weird to me to treat what are effectively careers as being genetically determined. It doesn't really make much sense. If Bill's biological parents were both accountants, but Bill was raised by a troupe of actors, I'm willing to bet Bill would be a better actor than accountant. I don't see why being a wizard would be any different. Getting to be good at any career--actor, accountant, or wizard--is 90% training and enthusiasm. 

 

Also, please buy my book, "10 Habits of Highly Effective Thaumaturgists".