Dune

[Irishjohn]

Gosh, I love Dune. I finally got around to finishing Chapterhouse (the final "real" Dune novel) recently, and quite liked it as well. I think it's time for me to reread the entire series.

 

I can totally understand people not being into the sequels, but I found them all interesting. I guess it depends on what you're looking for out of more Dune.

 

 

 

 

I read summaries of the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books out of morbid curiosity, and it turns out computers are illegal because a robot literally murdered a baby by throwing it out a window. I don't think the current wardens of Dune have quite preserved the subtlety you so enjoy from the original work.

 

One (very dorky) thing I did was to participate in a long-running Dune RPG campaign (using GURPS); it was fun to explore the setting in our own way, rewriting history as we went.

 

Oh, one thing I want to add is that revisiting Dune in ebook format is frustrating, because the kindle edition (at least when I last looked) is riddled with OCR errors from top to bottom. (edit: did a little research, and it appears that the current version on offer is improved, but still far from perfect.)

 

Man, the Butlerian Jihad is so cool in my mind (as is the whole post-feudal Europe in space thing). A robot throwing a baby out a window doesn't seem very imaginative.

 

I was only ever in one GURPS campaign and it was rubbish. That sounds great though.

 

I read the same ebook version, I think. It was very frustrating.

[mikemariano]

Oh, one thing I want to add is that revisiting Dune in ebook format is frustrating, because the kindle edition (at least when I last looked) is riddled with OCR errors from top to bottom. (edit: did a little research, and it appears that the current version on offer is improved, but still far from perfect.)

 

The fan-created epub I stole looked terrific, with separation for Princess Irulan's sections and all that fun stuff.

 

In other stealing-from-the-Herbert-estate news, I encourage people who want to watch three hours of David Lynch's film to download Spicediver's Dune: The Alternative Edition Redux.  It gets rid of too many voiceovers and changes the very end, which was Herbert's biggest complaint, but it's very well-paced.  I was surprised to discover how much of the book actually got filmed.

[coaxmetal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilton_Books

 

Oh yes, that's it, thanks. I'm glad that's true. 

[Argobot]

Finished reading Dune Messiah. The story ended in an interesting enough place that I'm definitely going to read the third book in the series.

 

It's crazy to me how much better this book is at telling the story that the Star Wars prequels were (I think) trying to tell. A preternaturally gifted individual is corrupted by his talents and directly leads to the death of his beloved (who dies giving birth to his also very gifted children who, despite his prescient abilities, he does not realize are in fact twins). Most of the similarities are probably coincidence, but it's still striking to me that Herbert was able to tell a mostly competent story along this vein in 300 pages. 

[neonrev]

Dune and Star Wars are essentially both just versions of the hero's journey, but dune does really excel at it in a subtle enough way that it took me a couple of reads to pick up on it. Dune's universe is enough of a presence in the story that the action feels driven by reality instead of a necessity to reach a predetermined plot point.

I read the Butlerian Jihad as a middleschooler on a spring break cruise ship (Might be fun for some, miserable for me) when the only other options were various rooms shoved full of drunk college kids, and I didn't mind it then, so if you're ever essentially trapped in a small cell for a week I would give it a shot. Just don't think too hard about why anyone is doing any of the things they're doing or how obvious and dumb EVERY SINGLE NAME is and you'll be alright.

[Gormongous]

Man, the Butlerian Jihad is so cool in my mind (as is the whole post-feudal Europe in space thing). A robot throwing a baby out a window doesn't seem very imaginative.

My half-remembered review of the four Anderson/Herbert Dune continuations I read my senior year of high school:

• Unsurprisingly, written in the same literary style as the Star Wars Expanded Universe novels. Not bad, but not great and downright ugly next to the elder Herbert's prose.
• Much more interested in the breadth than the depth of universe. Its characters fly all over the galaxy, while Dune and its sequels very smartly drill down into the layers of experience covering a single place.
• Quickly fumbles most of the original book's unique touches. Ix makes machines and they're everywhere, Tleilaxu clones people and they're everywhere, the Landsraad uses sonic gavels and hover chairs.
• Reminiscent of Game of Thrones and the "new" school of sci-fi/fantasy, but in a bad way. "Intrigue" just means that everyone except House Atreides has imminent plans for the genocide of anyone who's ever looked at them funny.
• This is my own hobbyhorse, but it totally rejects Herbert's philosophy of history in favor of a pulpy "great man" take on the subject. Instead of history being this incredible and impossible force that a single man, even a messiah, struggles to control, to the point of sacrificing his humanity, every single plot point in the prequels is the direct result of some character's conscious decision to steer events that way. It's ridiculous when you think that unintended consequences are driving force of the elder Herbert's Dune books. So yeah, one of the evil cyborgs kills a baby because he finds it annoying, then the baby's mother becomes the leader of the Butlerian Jihad, which is called that because her surname is Bulter, and it's nothing like the strange, inexplicable, and even mystical event alluded in the original novel. I can't actually tell you how the Legends of Dune trilogy ends, because six hundred-plus pages of workmanlike prose playing out the most obvious interpretation of everything cool about the Dune universe killed any desire to read more.
• The origins of the Fremen are well-executed, but because there's nothing open for Anderson and the younger Herbert to ruin. We just know too much already about their history, culture, and philosophy.

In conclusion, I have a friend who went to a sci-fi con where Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson were signing books. Herbert was drunk at two in the afternoon and spent the whole time heckling people lined up to meet him. He refused to sign my friend's book unless he said something nice about it first. Anderson was polite enough but clearly tired and barely made eye contact with my friend for how much he was rolling them at his co-author instead. In terms of how much a son is worthy of inheriting his father's legacy, I consider Brian Herbert on the opposite end of the spectrum from Christopher Tolkien and gave up long ago on giving any money directly to him.

Finished reading Dune Messiah. The story ended in an interesting enough place that I'm definitely going to read the third book in the series.

It's crazy to me how much better this book is at telling the story that the Star Wars prequels were (I think) trying to tell. A preternaturally gifted individual is corrupted by his talents and directly leads to the death of his beloved (who dies giving birth to his also very gifted children who, despite his prescient abilities, he does not realize are in fact twins). Most of the similarities are probably coincidence, but it's still striking to me that Herbert was able to tell a mostly competent story along this vein in 300 pages.

That's a cool observation! On the internet somewhere there's a timeline that maps out how George Lucas was introduced to Dune when the film option was first being floated by Jacobs, right as the former was being pressured by Twentieth Century Fox to expand his much-maligned thirteen-page treatment into an actual script with plot and characters. It's pretty convincing, which is to say that you're right to see Dune as a big influence on Lucas, though I don't he's even aware of it anymore.

I'm glad you liked Dune Messiah. I was too shy to say so in this thread, but I think it's an excellent distillation of and epilogue for the themes of the original novel. Children of Dune is good, too, but unless you're one of those people for whom God Emperor of Dune just clicks, and there are quite a few for whom it does, it's all downhill from here, becoming a cliff after the son takes over.

[neonrev]

• This is my own hobbyhorse, but it totally rejects Herbert's philosophy of history in favor of a pulpy "great man" take on the subject. Instead of history being this incredible and impossible force that a single man, even a messiah, struggles to control, to the point of sacrificing his humanity, every single plot point in the prequels is the direct result of some character's conscious decision to steer events that way. It's ridiculous when you think that unintended consequences are driving force of the elder Herbert's Dune books. So yeah, one of the evil cyborgs kills a baby because he finds it annoying, then the baby's mother becomes the leader of the Butlerian Jihad, which is called that because her surname is Bulter, and it's nothing like the strange, inexplicable, and even mystical event alluded in the original novel. I can't actually tell you how the Legends of Dune trilogy ends, because six hundred-plus pages of workmanlike prose playing out the most obvious interpretation of everything cool about the Dune universe killed any desire to read more.

Man, that is a perfect distillation of the biggest failure of the prequels, not a weird opinion. Brian Herbert is like an Ur example of missing the point. 

Also, that robot doesn't just throw the baby since it's crying and annoying, he wants to study her reaction to her baby being murdered (robots aren't aware people like their babies, right?), and its the death of some random nice aristocrat's baby, not the decades upon centuries of horrific physical and mental abuse. Nope, its the death of a single infant, whose mother, wouldn't you know, is also a distant ancestor of basically half of the important people in the later books.

[Roderick]

That sounds superbly awful.

 

When I first read it, I though Dune Messiah was weird and thin, but I've come to like it a lot nowadays. It's very interesting and centers on a single, almost modest plot line when you consider the warmongering of Dune. Like it a lot.

[Irishjohn]

• This is my own hobbyhorse, but it totally rejects Herbert's philosophy of history in favor of a pulpy "great man" take on the subject. Instead of history being this incredible and impossible force that a single man, even a messiah, struggles to control, to the point of sacrificing his humanity, every single plot point in the prequels is the direct result of some character's conscious decision to steer events that way. It's ridiculous when you think that unintended consequences are driving force of the elder Herbert's Dune books. So yeah, one of the evil cyborgs kills a baby because he finds it annoying, then the baby's mother becomes the leader of the Butlerian Jihad, which is called that because her surname is Bulter, and it's nothing like the strange, inexplicable, and even mystical event alluded in the original novel. I can't actually tell you how the Legends of Dune trilogy ends, because six hundred-plus pages of workmanlike prose playing out the most obvious interpretation of everything cool about the Dune universe killed any desire to read more.

 

 

Excellent point. I teach history in university and only read Dune as an adult. I find the book hugely inspiring. I'm actually extremely skeptical of historical fiction (it's frustrating, as I know there are a lot of great books out there but I have yet to beat the hump) but Dune nails it. Herbert did something really interesting: he basically presented a theory of history within a work of science fiction. I love it. The scope, his willingness to handle the fact that the future is unknowable and the product of infinite (or near infinite) causes... it's all wonderful, really.

 

I'm glad you liked Dune Messiah. I was too shy to say so in this thread, but I think it's an excellent distillation of and epilogue for the themes of the original novel. Children of Dune is good, too, but unless you're one of those people for whom God Emperor of Dune just clicks, and there are quite a few for whom it does, it's all downhill from here, becoming a cliff after the son takes over.

 

This is a great description of Messiah. I agree on God Emperor. I don't know that it clicks for me... ultimately I like it because it's an interesting exploration of what I've just described above. It's as if Herbert decided that enough was enough, he was going to write an entire book where his main character considered the concept of time and the future constantly and that would be the whole book. And then there's a love triangle involving clones, spies, conflict between sexuality and the lack thereof, and lots of weirdness. Lots and lots of weirdness. I'm finally halfway through on Heretics of Dune after giving up a year ago (things start happening the page after I gave up last time!) and I think I'm mostly persevering because I want to see what happens.

 

I like Argobot's comment on Dune vis a vis the Star Wars prequels as well. Spoiler below is for Children of Dune so be careful!

 

 

Leto II's transformation at the end of Children of Dune is flat out nuts. He embraces this transition into a monster in order to something necessary for the greater good of humanity. This comes to full fruition in God Emperor when he has long since become enslaved within the Worm body. So damn weird and wonderful. Really shows up the Darth Vader transformation in my opinion, if we're sticking with the Star Wars analogy, though to be fair the prequels ballsed that up so completely (along with everything else) that I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

 

 

Finally, I really love Dune Messiah largely because of how it treats Paul Atreides. I like his journey more than I like Leto II's, the tragedy of it feels more personal and immediate.

[melmer]

I started reading Dune last night

 

Hey Dune gang!

 

I eagerly anticipate reading about sand worms and stuff. So is the Dune series based in the same fictional universe as BeetleJuice?

[Roderick]

It most certainly is!

 

[Irishjohn]

I'm afraid that after two separate prolonged efforts, I'm giving up on Heretics of Dune. It's just not an enjoyable book.

I stand by my love of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. God Emperor of Dune is also an interesting book. Heretics feels like the beginning to a whole new series though. A series where nothing much happens.

[RubixsQube]

Yes, but Dune is like a prequel of sorts.

[Irishjohn]

Yes, but Dune is like a prequel of sorts.

 

I think of it more that Dune is its own thing, Messiah and Children follow as a pair with God Emperor of Dune as the clearly planned sequel to those two. After that... I love what Herbert did, I just thought I would enjoy reading it more than I did.

[Salacious Snake]

I remember Heretics being the most action-packed of the series, though maybe it's only later on that it picks up. There's a lot of Miles Teg doing bullet-time space karate in that one. 

 

Things definitely get weird with the people from the Scattering. This is where the weird sex stuff starts, which gets pretty creepy in the final book. I think a lot of people lost interest at this point in the series. I like to imagine that there would have been a great payoff in book 7, had it been written.

[Irishjohn]

I remember Heretics being the most action-packed of the series, though maybe it's only later on that it picks up. There's a lot of Miles Teg doing bullet-time space karate in that one. 

 

Things definitely get weird with the people from the Scattering. This is where the weird sex stuff starts, which gets pretty creepy in the final book. I think a lot of people lost interest at this point in the series. I like to imagine that there would have been a great payoff in book 7, had it been written.

 

Yeah, the sex stuff was always there I suppose but it felt different semantically. More talk of love (in the case of Jessica) and breeding (in the case of Bene Gesserit strategy). I'm not against the sex coming more to the forefront, but it doesn't quite work for me even as far as I got.

 

I don't know. I think bullet time space karate just fails to interest me at this point. The Bene Gesserit were more interesting to me as a secretive group that had tools like Voice. The fact they're all actually Cirque de Soleil with bloodshed, less so. And Waff's story! Maybe it revives and goes somewhere, but I was done unfortunately.

[seamus2389]

I was talking with a friend about this series yesterday. He read the summary of the series and most of his questions were what was up the books after god-emperor. They do read as a very different series and while I see where he was going with the final book (or the final 2 books are written by his son based on his fathers outlines) it's a lot weaker that the story of the first 4.

[mikemariano]

I recently came across a Frank Herbert biography by Tim O'Reilly (the reference book publisher).  It discusses the first three Dune novels in depth. "I can't read this until I read Dune Messiah and Children of Dune!" I thought.

 

So I read Dune Messiah.  And it was extremely underwhelming.

 

Herbert re-shaped his entire universe in between novels, but it doesn't affect any of the characters mentioned in this novel or the first one.  A few pages ago in this thread I was concerned about clones and shapeshifters—Herbert doesn't use them poorly, but like everything else in the novel he barely uses them at all.

 

And why does the entire surviving cast of Dune show up except Gurney?  He was the most quotable, passionate character!

[undermind9]

Messiah is underwhelming.  Children of Dune is my favorite.  keep going!

[mikemariano]

keep going!

 

I started the third novel.  Gurney's back!

[Nappi]

I have been meaning to read Dune for the longest time but have never gotten around to it for some reason*.

 

* Actually, I know the reason. It is because I have been hoping to find an edition with really elegant — or alternatively, incredibly tacky — cover. The editions that are most readily available have really dull art, in my opinion. I am the worst.

 

Found one that I simply couldn't help buying, and now I can finally dive into Dune. Really early on, but I'm enjoying the feeling of finding myself in the deep deep end in terms of history, economy, politics and religion. Related to that, what would be the best point to read the appendices (The Ecology of Dune, The Religion of Dune, Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes, and The Almanak eb-Ashraf)?

[mikemariano]

Related to that, what would be the best point to read the appendices (The Ecology of Dune, The Religion of Dune, Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes, and The Almanak eb-Ashraf)?

 

I merely flipped through them after I finished.  They tie into some of the bigger themes that inspired Herbert but aren't necessary for Dune or its sequels (as far as I can tell).

[Guts]

If you want to do a deep dive on dune and like podcasts this one is pretty good. It's in 12 parts and each one is more than an hour long. They also cover all the Tolkien books in extreme detail plus a few others. 

 

http://mythgard.org/academy/dune/

[mikemariano]

Thanks for the link Guts!

 

Apparently there is also a literary YouTube series called "Thug Notes" that is gimmicky, but does a really good job summarizing and discussing this novel:

 

[baekgom84]

I'm currently about 1/4 through Children of Dune right now, after a few months ago I decided to go on a Dune kick. I've re-read the original several times and I really enjoy it each time, but the only time I read Dune: Messiah was when I was much younger, and remembered almost nothing about it except that I found it kind of hard to understand. I figured I would have a better chance now that I'm a bit older and a bit wiser.

 

From the rest of the comments in this thread it seems like virtually all of the books after Dune have a much narrower appeal, and sadly it seems like I am not within that range. I didn't hate it, and I can see why some people might really enjoy it, but for me it lacked so many of the things which I really admired about Dune, or perhaps more specifically it didn't balance those elements in a way that appealed to me. I enjoyed the mysticism in Dune as an aspect of the worldbuilding and character development, but I found the political maneuverings much more compelling. In Dune: Messiah the conversations seem to shift away from politics and more towards philosophy and religion. That's already not really my cup of tea, but I also didn't connect with the characters much. Some of the characters I enjoyed in the first book are dull and unlikeable here, and others are omitted entirely. Story-wise, I didn't feel much in the way of tension and I wasn't particularly compelled by the narrative.

 

So far though I'm enjoying Children of Dune. There's a lot more political intrigue, and the problems faced by characters tend to be more human in nature and less mystical or philosophical. I personally hope it carries on like this, but I may have spoken too soon.