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Jake

Idle Thumbs 149: A Divine Exodus of Snakes

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Wait how has it taken this long for someone to talk about AGDQ on the podcast!

 

You should definitely watch the

, but again, I also recommend watching parts of the
, or even the
. Just find a game you're familiar with from this list, and devote some time to watching a person destroy the game, and delight in the huge spectrum of (unfortunately, predominantly male) nerd culture that exists. 

 

ALSO, Chris' comments about games being "solved" is pretty naive, because while each individual speedrunner is really working towards some platonic ideal (the "tool-assisted run", or TAS, which I think is as close to the "solved" version that Chris describes, wherein someone goes frame by frame through an emulated version of the game to find the fastest possible method of beating the game), they still have to fight a lot of weird randomness (witness, in every speed run, the crowd bemoaning "RNG", the game's random number generator). Yes, spelunky has a random seed, which means that the speedrunner is up against a completely new scenario, but to decry most speedrunning as "solved" is a pretty hasty and  broad judgment.

 

I don't think I was as negative as you suggest, simply attempting to counter the notion that there's anything inherently inferior about speedrunning games that are heavily based on random generation.

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Also, I think Chris and I might have been pretty darn similar in high school. What is it about quiet intellectual types that predisposes them to occasional shitty near-sociopathic behavior in their youth? There was a period of time where my friends and I would walk around hitting the hidden "stop" switches on escalators and automatic doors, which would be the most annoying thing to me now.

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Also, I think Chris and I might have been pretty darn similar in high school. What is it about quiet intellectual types that predisposes them to occasional shitty near-sociopathic behavior in their youth? There was a period of time where my friends and I would walk around hitting the hidden "stop" switches on escalators and automatic doors, which would be the most annoying thing to me now.

It might have been a slightly different thing to that, although who knows. I had two basically entirely separate groups of friends in high school starting freshman year; one was nerdier and in honors classes and stuff, and the other group was just a bunch of not-particularly-intellectual goofballs. The latter group ended up becoming my main group of friends; we played in bands together and did all kinds of dickhead stuff like the things I described on the podcast. We broke into our high school once in the middle of the night and set off the alarm; used to steal stuff like huge real estate balloons and signage, etc. All kinds of dumb garbage. By the end of high school, the parents of my OTHER group of friends all perceived me as a bad influence, although I don't actually believe I had any actual negative influence on them!

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I don't think I was as negative as you suggest, simply attempting to counter the notion that there's anything inherently inferior about speedrunning games that are heavily based on random generation.

 

I wish I had conveyed my tone a little better; I didn't mean to imply you were negative. As someone who has watched the majority of your speedrun attempts, I think that it is an incredible thing to do well (it's more fun to watch yours, by the way, over people who are very good with the teleporter, as that seems more like black magic). My comment was just trying to make a counterpoint (for you, who admitted you're not super interested in watching speedruns) that while most speedrunners would love to do things in a rote, straightforward, "solved" way, random number generation is everywhere, and it's interesting to watch their "flow" get interrupted, and see them have to respond in real time. However, to me the flow is equally as imprssive, since in the best speed runs people are accomplishing very technical things at an insane pace. 

 

And, as a person who thinks it's interesting how people love to take things apart, even the crazy hack-ey speedruns (see this weird Boy and his Blob run) that Nick got excited about have a high level of fascinating content. 

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I really wonder about who could claim to own what from the original Defense of the Ancients characters. As I've pointed out a few times before, beyond even the huge number of characters taken directly from the Warcraft 3 main campaign, there's a character, Lina Inverse, whose class is the title of the Japanese anime she's taken from. Her appearance in Dota 2 is no longer a dead ringer for her appearance in the Slayers franchise, but all her skills are still signature spells used in the anime. Judging from that, maybe there's just a general willingness for none of these companies to step on each others' toes? I don't know. I'm sure Kadokawa and Kanzaka Hajime both couldn't care less, but Blizzard and Valve have both borrowed a lot of their characters from all over.

 

The thing is that the original Warcraft series characters are pretty derivative. They all pretty much fit into the tropes established by D&D and fleshed out by pulp novels and Warhammer and so on. Sure, once you make a thing and trademark it you can do what you want with that specific character, but it's not like they came up with the world's most amazing characters.

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I like Nick's comment that the beard is due to adopting a new Blizzard game.  I've grown a few Blizzeards myself.

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Maybe it's an age thing? I think it's telling that the people that aren't that into it are saying they are 26. That's my brother's age, and while he appreciates the show, it doesn't seem to be that big a deal for him and his friends compared to my friends who are in their early 30s where the show did take on like a second language for all of us. Or maybe it is something else... who knows..

 

It's weird to me how just a few years can make such a big difference in terms of what pieces of pop culture you latch on to when you are young. I'm 32 and everyone my age watched The Simpsons when it came out. My sister is 3 years younger than me and really doesn't identify with it that much. On the other hand, she was right at the sweet spot age for Pokemon when it came out. All her friends played it and watched the anime. Meanwhile, no one my age would have been caught dead playing it at the time. I've still never played a Pokemon game.

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Maybe it's an age thing? I think it's telling that the people that aren't that into it are saying they are 26. That's my brother's age, and while he appreciates the show, it doesn't seem to be that big a deal for him and his friends compared to my friends who are in their early 30s where the show did take on like a second language for all of us. Or maybe it is something else... who knows...

 

I also am with you on Seinfeld reruns, but for a different reason. I never found reruns of Seinfeld that compelling to watch just because the moment I recognized which episode it is I immediately recall all the jokes right away. This is in contrast with the Simpsons where there are so many random jokes that aren't necessarily tied to the main story line that inevitably I forget about some jokes, or catch things I never caught the first time around, etc.

 

I'm only 23! The Simpsons is older than I am.

 

The weird thing about watching Seinfeld in the twenty-first century is that every plot could have been resolved if cell phones had been around at the time.

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I installed Hearthstone promptly after hearing Nick talk about it. The level of peggle-ness is truly incredible, and combined with enough strategery to also make you feel smart when you win, it is certainly a potent mixture.

 

But then I wanted to make some client-side texture mods to add more clothes to some of the skimpier outfits on the cards*; discovered that this is 1. probably impossible with my level of science knowledge (thanks Unity) and 2. against the ToS; uninstalled Hearthstone and threw it on the big pile of games I resent for their approach to moddability (also outfits). =T

 

It was, however, very fun while it lasted. And I agree that having the handful of preset voice commands instead of a full chat system is a good choice for a game like this. (I've played games where there's no chat option at all and it was kind of eerily quiet, but in Hearthstone being able to make your character say their line for "Thanks" or "Oops" or "Threaten" is a good degree of expression for playing a quick game against a randomly selected stranger).

 

* it's certainly not the most excessive of games by any means in regard to the outfits, but still enough to irk me if I were to get sucked into the vortex and play for a considerable length of time

I'm playing quite a bit of Hearthstone (for me- I suspect it would count as dabbling for folk with more free time). The ways in which players can and cannot communicate is something that really interests me, as it is clear Blizzard spent a lot of time thinking about it. The absence of any sort of a regular chat function is an enormous, unexpected benefit. I'm sure many of my opponents are the regular breed of gamer-twits that infest competitive games in particular, but I shall never know, and I shall enjoy my games with them as much as against anyone else. It cuts out so, so much stress. 

 

You're right about zero communication being eerie. It'd be more like playing an AI. But there's actually loads of communication in Hearthstone. The six emotes are neat, and can add a pleasant level of formality to the proceedings. It's nice to be able to say 'oops' when you screw up. There's more, though. Every card or minion your opponent hovers his mouse over is highlighted, and every card they pick out of their hand hovers over the board, even if they don't play it and put it back. You can read a lot of personality from this. Hesitancy becomes visualised, as does confidence. I like to play my turns fast once I figure out what I'm doing, once cards and attacks coming in a rapid succession. Clever stuff. Very deliberate design.

 

I'm enjoying the game a lot. There's plenty of meat there. It's quite generous to freeloaders like me (mostly- I bought a couple of packs because I got a shiny for spending money in the beta). I get enough cards to feel satisfied and to make some decks I'm pretty happy with. Current favourite deck- I only have one Legendary rarity card. It's a card with decent stats that essentially replaces itself once when it dies. There's a card called Faceless Manipulator, which becomes a copy of any other minion on the board when played. There's a Shaman card that replaces a minion once if it dies. The combined effect, if all played together, is that my one really good card goes a very long way indeed- the legendary dies, spawns t replacement, then is replaced with the ability to spawn yet another replacement. And I have two of those.

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It might have been a slightly different thing to that, although who knows. I had two basically entirely separate groups of friends in high school starting freshman year; one was nerdier and in honors classes and stuff, and the other group was just a bunch of not-particularly-intellectual goofballs. The latter group ended up becoming my main group of friends; we played in bands together and did all kinds of dickhead stuff like the things I described on the podcast. We broke into our high school once in the middle of the night and set off the alarm; used to steal stuff like huge real estate balloons and signage, etc. All kinds of dumb garbage. By the end of high school, the parents of my OTHER group of friends all perceived me as a bad influence, although I don't actually believe I had any actual negative influence on them!

 

Wow! See, I had my smart theatre friends and then the group of dudes who all started hanging out because we heard each other talking about the first Diablo in gym class. Up until about halfway through my senior year, I hung out with the latter way more. I guess the question is more about how high schoolers can navigate two completely different circles of friends simultaneously, rather than how I could be such a little shitheel.

 

Come to think of it, we broke into our school too, and ended up setting every cash register in the cafeteria to play their audio diagnostic on repeat, which made the stone-and-plaster space sound like the cacophony of hell by the time we were finished. I think I ended up being the beard for a lot of these things, since I had a high GPA, a good reputation, and a talent for quick but sincere apologies. It's pretty funny how completely I left that behind when I went to college out of state.

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I think it's funny that nobody noticed the subtle expansion of Chris's Spelunky habit. It used to be "I only play the daily." Now it has turned into "I only play the daily and a few speed runs." Is it time for an intervention?

 

Actually I believe that the decision to do only the dailies was in fact a step back from playing a ton of the adventure mode.

 

With regard to the Simpsons, it was the only cartoon I specifically made sure to watch on time.  The rest I would just watch if they were on, but I wouldn't go out of my way to make sure I didn't miss a new episode.  I remember being very upset anytime a Sunday Night Football game ran long (ie every game) and my Simpsons episode was cut short.

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You know, I would have sworn that abominations have had the hook-pull ability since Warcraft 3, but apparently that's not the case. Stitches - and abominations in general doing the hook thing - has been around since the beginning of WoW, though I don't know how that fits into the DoTA timeline.

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I am very very glad that Nick is back on the podcasts more regularly now. I remember Jake once saying that Nick was pretty much the source of all the insane shit that Thumbs is (partially) remember for - baboo etc. - and whenever he's on the show everybody steps up their crazy game. It's the best.

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It's kinda funny to me that Blizzard has gone from almost imposing real names on all forums to making a game where you literally can't communicate outside of 6 presets. They seem like opposing ideas, although they might argue that both things solve the same problem.

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You know, I would have sworn that abominations have had the hook-pull ability since Warcraft 3, but apparently that's not the case. Stitches - and abominations in general doing the hook thing - has been around since the beginning of WoW, though I don't know how that fits into the DoTA timeline.

 

I played WoW in classic and the first few expansions, abominations didn't do anything special except leaving patches of rot on the floor that gave diseases to people. This was also the ability for the aboms in WC3. Pudge's rot is based off this. I didn't even remember stiches, it's an alliance only quest in Duskwood. http://www.wowwiki.com/Stitches

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94663588/timelineWIP.png

 

Dota was being played before WoW but even WoW didn't have the hooking aboms. Those were added in WOTLK: http://www.wowhead.com/item=41361/abomination-hook

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Personally, I feel like South Park has had a bigger cultural influence over the last 20 years (or I guess 18 years) than The Simpsons, but that may just be specific to the social circles I've been in throughout my life. I watched both shows growing up and feel like I've heard far more people quoting South Park and referencing their characters and plot lines than I have for The Simpsons.

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Personally, I feel like South Park has had a bigger cultural influence over the last 20 years (or I guess 18 years) than The Simpsons, but that may just be specific to the social circles I've been in throughout my life. I watched both shows growing up and feel like I've heard far more people quoting South Park and referencing their characters and plot lines than I have for The Simpsons.

 

South Park, due to its rapid development, matches the attention span of the Internet age much better than the Simpsons, where episodes are usually begin being made almost a year in advance of being aired.

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I'm only 23! The Simpsons is older than I am.

 

The weird thing about watching Seinfeld in the twenty-first century is that every plot could have been resolved if cell phones had been around at the time.

Agreed, I don't think age has anything to do with it. Well, I'm sure it's relevant for some people's experiences, but not mine. I have a lot of friends my ages, some younger, who are way into The Simpsons. I just never watched it because my parents wouldn't let me when I was young. I remember sneaking in a Halloween episode once because my friends at school talked about how awesome the Halloween episodes were (this must've been in like 4th or 5th grade, maybe a little older?), and my parents caught me and grounded me from TV for a while. Good times!

 

Anyway, I just never got into The Simpsons once I was old enough for them to stop caring.

 

And yeah, that's what's making Seinfeld so funny for me. Most of the problems they face are so dated, and would likely never be a problem today. I love it.

 

Re: South Park: I don't just not watch South Park. I think it's dumb and I don't WANT to watch it.

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Just hit the part about playing local multi on a projector.  Seriously, this is the best thing ever.  We replaced our TV with a projector last year, and can't imagine going back.  Biggest drawbacks are that you need a sound system, have to have a dark room for the best picture and they take more work to setup than just sitting a TV on a stand.  But playing local split-screen on a 142" screen is sooooo good. 

 

The cost of setting one up is really not much worse than buying a TV.  You can spend anywhere from $700 to several thousand, just like buying a new TV.  But you get a giant screen. 

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Personally, I feel like South Park has had a bigger cultural influence over the last 20 years (or I guess 18 years) than The Simpsons, but that may just be specific to the social circles I've been in throughout my life. I watched both shows growing up and feel like I've heard far more people quoting South Park and referencing their characters and plot lines than I have for The Simpsons.

 

Maybe this is regional or generational. To me, this make you sound like you're a crazy person.  

 

Simpsons is so deeply engrained in everyone I know that we'll quote or reference it without even realizing anymore. 

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Agreed, I don't think age has anything to do with it. Well, I'm sure it's relevant for some people's experiences, but not mine. I have a lot of friends my ages, some younger, who are way into The Simpsons. I just never watched it because my parents wouldn't let me when I was young. I remember sneaking in a Halloween episode once because my friends at school talked about how awesome the Halloween episodes were (this must've been in like 4th or 5th grade, maybe a little older?), and my parents caught me and grounded me from TV for a while. Good times!

 

Anyway, I just never got into The Simpsons once I was old enough for them to stop caring.

 

And yeah, that's what's making Seinfeld so funny for me. Most of the problems they face are so dated, and would likely never be a problem today. I love it.

 

Re: South Park: I don't just not watch South Park. I think it's dumb and I don't WANT to watch it.

 

Well, Curb Your Enthusiasm is basically Seinfeld in the 00s so I wouldn't say the show is funny *because* of its dated setting.

 

I'd argue a lot of the episode premises are centered around the main players being self-centered misanthropes and the world punishing them for it in hilarious ways. (this was unfortunately, rather explicitly laid out in the finale)

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Maybe this is regional or generational. To me, this make you sound like you're a crazy person.

Simpsons is so deeply engrained in everyone I know that we'll quote or reference it without even realizing anymore.

That's why I was careful to mention that it may just be specific to my social circles. The Simpsons didn't really do much for me after the late 90s and most of us stopped watching around that time.

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That's why I was careful to mention that it may just be specific to my social circles. The Simpsons didn't really do much for me after the late 90s.

 

That's interesting, I feel almost the opposite.  Because South Park is so topical, I feel like the humor has a much shorter life than the sort of generic comedy of the early Simpsons.

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Well, Curb Your Enthusiasm is basically Seinfeld in the 00s so I wouldn't say the show is funny *because* of its dated setting.

No, I wouldn't say that, either. Just that it's part of why I'm finding it so enjoyable right now.

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That's interesting, I feel almost the opposite.  Because South Park is so topical, I feel like the humor has a much shorter life than the sort of generic comedy of the early Simpsons.

A lot of them are yes. But there are still plenty that don't necessarily deal with something specific to that moment in time. For instance, I've been saying "I thought this was America" since 2008.

But it may very well be a geographical/generational thing.

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