QUILTBAG Thread of Flagrant Homoeroticism

[Atlantic]

Hot damn. Results are still coming in about the election but I haven't heard any constituency voting No. I don't know what other people's sense of Ireland is, but I was worried that No could win or that Yes would just scrape a win out of sheer complacency. But we really fucking did this. I'm so glad that we're not only going to pass this, our country has just shouted a clear message about this that makes me hopeful for future changes. I'm glad I got to be part of making this happen too.

 

'Nother Irish Thumb here. I was apprehensive during the week. I was worried that the No campaign had managed to spread enough misinformation about the issue at hand that it would sway things much further towards an overall No. Delighted that shower of absolute dogfuckers did not poison the well and make an embarrassment out of us all.

 

It's the first time I've ever felt proud to be Irish and to live in Ireland.

[osmosisch]

The latest You Are Not So Smart podcast is all about changing minds about LGBTQ people. I found it quite inspiring.

Unfortunately there's now severe doubt about the validity of the scientific work here. That's not to say that the method doesn't work, but ouch.

[dibs]

And it is official with just over 62% voting yes!

[syntheticgerbil]

Dick Valentine

"Everywhere I went in Ireland last month, all I saw everywhere were posters imploring people to vote no. Struggled to see any that implored people to vote yes. Morale of the story? If you are making posters, you're losing. That's my big takeaway! That....and Ireland came out and crushed it. Well done, Ireland! Love that place even more now."

[tegan]

A single constituency voted no, which has to be the most awkward thing ever. Like, "oh, I guess we'll never get tourists in this one part of the country again."

[Mangela Lansbury]

It's gonna be a hot destination spot for the American Christian right.

[Atlantic]

A single constituency voted no, which has to be the most awkward thing ever. Like, "oh, I guess we'll never get tourists in this one part of the country again."

 

It was the Roscommon-South Leitrim constituency, and they voted 51.4% No. It's a very narrow margin, but enough to make every one cringe a bit.

 

 

It's gonna be a hot destination spot for the American Christian right.

 

I'm sure a significant number of their ancestor's emigrated from that area over the last couple of hundred years. It's all coming full circle.

[seamus2389]

The North-West had the smallest margins for a yes win in general. 

 

This article makes a very good argument as to why referendum's on minority rights are not the way to go. Reminded me of this article that makes a similar point and that webiste had of interesting guest posts the last couple weeks like why the focus by the No side was focused on gay marriage with signs like two men's love can't replace a mothers. That and "don't be silenced, vote no" and something about surrogacy were the bread and butter of the posters.

 

One silver lining for the no side is with some many of their posters already being taken down it's be less work to have all down by the end of the week. 

 

Finally the waterford whispers (satire) news has been on the ball with some of their stuff the last couple days and one of the politics shows here covered the count live from the George which is the most well known gay bar in the country.It was great in a way only the Vincent Brown show can be with Born this way being the theme song for special episode

[Dewar]

My understanding (strictly from listening to Danny O'Dwyer talking about it) is that it had to be a referendum since it would require a change to the constitution, which always requires a public vote in Ireland.

 

Also, that article fails to mention that the government is owned and operated by crusty old guys, and leaving it to them to finally say it's OK could take even longer.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Those are both accurate rebuttals but I think it is a fair point still. I wasn't even totally convinced that the referendum would pass despite the fact that this is such a non-debatable topic. Not too long ago, there was a referendum about allowing divorce and it literally passed by 0.28%. Allowing a majority share to make a decision for the whole is a risky business even though it is entirely the foundation of democracy and there are places where a popular vote like this would be a landslide against. Not to mention the fact that other rights issues could easily have trouble in our very country, like recognising trans* rights or allowing abortions.

 

Though it went well this time this result is not without pause for concern and warning.

[Dewar]

Yeah, I guess i agree about the problems with popular vote in that way, but that isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with pursuing the issue in the courts either. Sometimes you just want to fight every way you can and hope that someone sees reason. I think at this point I wouldn't count on the US government to legalize water.

 

On another (somewhat funnier, but also sadder) note, I've seen a few articles about the Catholic church kicking around about "how their message just isn't getting through" and such, rather than "maybe our message is wrong." The church that I occasionally attend belongs to the ELCA, whom recently appointed their first gay bishop, so it's both sad and silly that the Catholics are still stuck so far behind. Frankly, it feels like the ELCA is a bit behind as well, but at least they're doing something. 

[Merus]

Australia is still embarrassingly far behind, but the next round of trying to push through changes to the Marriage Act has commenced. The blocker is, like so many things, Tony Abbott, who insists on his party keeping opposition to same-sex marriage as a policy. This is at least the third round.

 

Interestingly, it looks like the pressure is getting to Abbott, who is making noises about how he believes the vote should be owned by 'Parliament' and 'not by any particular party'.

 

Currently, if all MPs were allowed a free vote, it'd probably pass.

[Atlantic]

Those are both accurate rebuttals but I think it is a fair point still. I wasn't even totally convinced that the referendum would pass despite the fact that this is such a non-debatable topic. Not too long ago, there was a referendum about allowing divorce and it literally passed by 0.28%. Allowing a majority share to make a decision for the whole is a risky business even though it is entirely the foundation of democracy and there are places where a popular vote like this would be a landslide against. Not to mention the fact that other rights issues could easily have trouble in our very country, like recognising trans* rights or allowing abortions.

 

Though it went well this time this result is not without pause for concern and warning.

 

The divorce referendum was in 1995. I agree with your points, but I wanted to clarify.

 

--

 

Ireland has been undoing the shackles of conservatism for a long time.

 

1983: Declan Flynn was beaten to death in Fairview Park in north Dublin for being a gay man 

1993: Homosexuality was decriminalised (!!!)

2015: Ireland is the first country to introduce SSM by popular vote.

 

I think my generation (born late '80s/early '90s) will be the ones to hopefully rip religion out of our government at long last. The New Gay Republic of Ireland is already fantastic. LGBT couples aren't afraid to hold hands and kiss in public! Hooray.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Totally! I'm of the same generation and I'm glad to see what this says about our country today. I'm just saying it wasn't enough to make me certain we'd win though there should have been literally no chance for any group to vote on allowing a group to be oppressed. Maybe I'm a bit pessimistic though.

[dibs]

Not even if they, you know, with the willies and bums?

[Ben X]

Caitlyn Jenner did a Vanity Fair shoot and article. Interesting that her children have known for years that she privately identified as a woman.

[Mangela Lansbury]

The reactions to Caitlyn Jenner that bother me the most aren't the vile hatred and disgusting rhetoric, but the apathy and dismissal from otherwise progressive people who say, "Ugh. Don't pay attention to the Kardashians, they're not worth it!"

[Bjorn]

The reactions to Caitlyn Jenner that bother me the most aren't the vile hatred and disgusting rhetoric, but the apathy and dismissal from otherwise progressive people who say, "Ugh. Don't pay attention to the Kardashians, they're not worth it!"

 

I'm curious why that reaction bothers you. 

[jennegatron]

I have a lot of opinions about the disdain that people express for the Kardashians, and I'm curious if Mangela has any overlaps in feelings. 

[Mangela Lansbury]

Trans communities are largely invisible even within LGBT circles, which leads to their needs being ignored. A highly visible person coming out as trans, especially one whose history is full of traditionally masculine accomplishments, is a great thing. Discouraging people from paying attention to or talking about a trans person just because you don't like the people they're associated with is a super myopic and selfish perspective. Sadly, I expect the hate and rhetoric, but the dismissal is just unexpected to me, and it's super thoughtless.

[natellite]

A lot of it also seems to have an undercurrent of, like, dismissal of trans identities as though they're purely a way to make headlines. "Bruce Jenner says he's a woman now? God, those wacky Kardashians at it again!" Which is, you know, super dumb-shitty and bad.

[Bjorn]

I have a lot of opinions about the disdain that people express for the Kardashians, and I'm curious if Mangela has any overlaps in feelings. 

 

And now I'm super curious what your opinions on that are! 

 

 

I'm personally apathetic about the Kardashians, but that's really just because I'm apathetic about the entire landscape of reality television, it's just a thing I don't care about.  I wouldn't tell others not to pay attention or discuss something, but I have such little knowledge of any of it (other than what naturally filters through things like Facebook or NPR) that I don't even really have anything intelligent to say about them.  I do have what feels like a disdain particularly for them, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure where that comes from.  Probably from just listening to other people be disdainful of them, since I can't have watched more than 10 or 15 minutes of their shows over the years. 

[jennegatron]

And now I'm super curious what your opinions on that are! 

 

 

I'm personally apathetic about the Kardashians, but that's really just because I'm apathetic about the entire landscape of reality television, it's just a thing I don't care about.  I wouldn't tell others not to pay attention or discuss something, but I have such little knowledge of any of it (other than what naturally filters through things like Facebook or NPR) that I don't even really have anything intelligent to say about them.  I do have what feels like a disdain particularly for them, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure where that comes from.  Probably from just listening to other people be disdainful of them, since I can't have watched more than 10 or 15 minutes of their shows over the years. 

 

 

This is more generally about the 3 Kardashian sisters, not specifically about Kris or Caitlyn Jenner. Most of the disdain I see for them (a la Wil Wheaton saying they're 'worse than Hitler') are incredibly gendered and/or slut shaming. They're women who used the money that their father (one of OJ Simpson's attorneys) made to develop things like clothing lines, cosmetic lines, retail stores, & a media presence that is specifically authored to conform with what they want out of their celebrity status.

(Complaints I see most often are "they're only famous because of Kim's sex tape," "They don't even work, why should we care about them?," "They care too much about the appearance and are vain/vapid")

Kim managed to turn a betrayal of trust (the release of her sex tape) into a profitable venture for herself. It takes someone with a great deal of media savvy & PR control to do that kind of turnaround. I think Kim is the least interesting sister as she is often incredibly condescending to her sisters, is often over dramatic, and mostly humorless. She is the most famous though.

 

I 100% believe there are genuine criticisms of them & their fame/fortune, but the ones I see are rarely that. (The arguments that are actually compelling to me are things like appropriating Black culture, refusing to criticize Tyga for his predatory behavior in dating their 17 year old sister, etc.)

[Ben X]

Kim managed to turn a betrayal of trust (the release of her sex tape) into a profitable venture for herself. It takes someone with a great deal of media savvy & PR control to do that kind of turnaround.

 

This is pretty tangential, but that's a response I hear a lot to criticisms of women who became famous through a sex tape or being a topless model or whatever, and I disagree. It really doesn't take a lot of media savvy to get representation after your sex tape has been released and say yes to everything.

[Bjorn]

This is pretty tangential, but that's a response I hear a lot to criticisms of women who became famous through a sex tape or being a topless model or whatever, and I disagree. It really doesn't take a lot of media savvy to get representation after your sex tape has been released and say yes to everything.

 

I have thoughts about that, and this in general, but nothing I have the time to write up right now.  But I think you are vastly underrating what that experience would be like.