DOTA 2

[njoos]

This used to be true. It's not anymore. The first person to disconnect gets an abandon after five minutes, and then the game officially ends thirty seconds later.

Just saying this doesn't make it okay. I wish it did. But! It's not okay! It's a problem that needs to be fixed!

Propose a fix that doesn't ruin the game then.

If you still have two barracks up every pub game is winnable. If you don't just let the creeps finish. I really don't see how this is a problem that warrants a feature that has the potential to introduce additional griefing, reduce the fun in actually winning, and distance the pub meta further from the pro meta.

The HoN meta game in pub games was really dumb because of the surrender. Go for early game cheese, win with surrender. If it doesn't work just surrender. That's not dota.

[Twig]

Surrender option. REQUEST FULFILLED.

[undermind9]

The HoN meta game in pub games was really dumb because of the surrender. Go for early game cheese, win with surrender. If it doesn't work just surrender. That's not dota.

 

i spent a bit of time in HoN, left wc3 dota with introduction of slark in dota (6.65) for the pretty updated textures of HoN until some 2.5yrs ago with a beta invite, this is entirely true.  people would pick all early push strats, play hard and if didnt work reset for the next game

[Twig]

I played League before I got my Dota invite (and a little bit of HoN between the two, although I couldn't stand its butt-ugly aesthetics so I only played maybe ten games total), and even with a 3/5 surrender option, it was never a huge problem for me. People would start votes very frequently, absolutely, but very rarely would anyone ever give up. And if they did, it was usually someone who was bad and being a jerk blaming the rest of his team for the loss, anyway.

[Cleinhun]

I played League before I got my Dota invite (and a little bit of HoN between the two, although I couldn't stand its butt-ugly aesthetics so I only played maybe ten games total), and even with a 3/5 surrender option, it was never a huge problem for me. People would start votes very frequently, absolutely, but very rarely would anyone ever give up. And if they did, it was usually someone who was bad and being a jerk blaming the rest of his team for the loss, anyway.

I am beginning to suspect that you and I are the only two people for whom this was true. I can't think of any other reason people would make such a big deal out of this.

 

Also, did they really get rid of the 5 player disconnect thing? I assumed that was intentional, since it meant you could pretty much only surrender if you queued with 5, and I don't understand what the problem with that could be. Players surrender in tournaments all the time.

[Gormongous]

I don't know much, but isn't the Heroes of Newerth community renowned for being incredibly toxic, so maybe using it to predict the effect of a surrender function on the Dota 2 community is a little faulty, unless of course the latter is just as toxic, which I don't know for sure because I'm not interested in a multiplayer game that doesn't have to end until my opponent gets bored of taking victory laps.

[Henroid]

I can't remember where I heard it, but apparently the HoN staff themselves are toxic and perpetuate the bad shit surrounding LOMAs.

[njoos]

Oh yeah. The HoN staff was trash and the HoN casting community was lead by a confirmed pedophile but that is besides the point. 

[Twig]

What.

 

 

I am beginning to suspect that you and I are the only two people for whom this was true. I can't think of any other reason people would make such a big deal out of this.

 

Also, did they really get rid of the 5 player disconnect thing? I assumed that was intentional, since it meant you could pretty much only surrender if you queued with 5, and I don't understand what the problem with that could be. Players surrender in tournaments all the time.

Maybe we got really lucky! Hah.

Yeah they did. You can actually auto-GG out of a game if you do team matchmaking. As in, create a team using the in-game team feature and play with that team. Works just like pro games. But, you know, you have to create a team for every group of five you want to play with. And you have to play with five every time. It's not ideal.

 

The logic behind allowing pros to surrender and not allowing pubs to surrender is that pros have a better idea of how the flow of the game is going than pubs do. I've never bought into that argument, but that's what people will tend to throw at you if you bring it up. I know perfectly well how the flow of my own personal game at my own personal level is going. I don't need to be a professional Dota player to understand when a game is lost. But, you know, the winning team might feel sad if they don't get to attack the ancients themselves. Boo fucking hoo.

[Dewar]

I'm still a beginner, but the number of times I've been thinking we're losing and then the carry kicks into gear and takes over are many. I even got to do that last night (unfortunately, we still lost, but we held them off at the rax for 10 minutes or so.) I've also watched some epic throws by the GB team, snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

[BFrank]

The problem is, in creating a way to opt out of miserable games, you up the percentage of miserable games for people to opt out of. 

 

'Surrender' works out better for the people who are playing 5-6 games a night, but for someone like me who wants to commit to a single full game (win or lose), every abandon/surrender is the worst possible outcome. Much worse than getting creamed but everyone hangs around and tries anyway.

 

I'm kinda convinced that making a 'I want a surrender option' matchmaking queue would result in games that look a whole lot like low priority queue games. 

[Twig]

I'm kinda convinced that making a 'I want a surrender option' matchmaking queue would result in games that look a whole lot like low priority queue games. 

Yeah, for the people who don't choose the surrender option.

[Jutranjo]

Surrender is the fucking devil. How good is dota if you only had about half of your games go past 20 minutes?

 

I queue up, solo, with a buddy or whatever. Why does 1 guy on the team get to decide "its over guys, afk in fountain"? You wanted to play a dota game, play it till it ends. You know it can take 15, 20 or 70 minutes. It isn't a game for 10 min quick rounds or pick up and play and it'd be a shame if it changed into that.

 

HON had it and it also had a worse community. It also exacerbated all the problems of pub dota. The stats whoring, the blaming, the win rate, KDA, AverageGPM checking while heroes are picked so a guy who sometimes plays supports isn't playing your carry. The 10 minute calls of "gg, concede at 15". 

 

Yeah, for the people who don't choose the surrender option.

 

It's 15 min and 3/5 people vote yet to surrender. Guess what they'll do if one or both of the other two guys don't vote yes. They won't go back to playing to win, they'll intentionally play badly until the other two see that it's hopeless to try to win with them anymore and will vote concede. It just makes people angrier. 

 

15k gold or exp advantage as a requirement for having the vote be available it also bad unless you somehow kept it hidden from the player base. They'll figure it out and then see that they're behind but not enough yet so let's go feed the enemy some courier money or maybe suicide to unlock the vote.

 

It's pretty selfish to want to decide a game is over if you're playing with 4 random guys on your team. You have around 3k games played but you never came back from being 1 rax down? 2 rax down? All in push down mid after enemy gets all 3 raxes but are all dead with no buybacks?

[Twig]

It's 15 min and 3/5 people vote yet to surrender. Guess what they'll do if one or both of the other two guys don't vote yes. They won't go back to playing to win, they'll intentionally play badly until the other two see that it's hopeless to try to win with them anymore and will vote concede.

I don't believe that for a second, sorry. Anyone who's going to do that will do it with or without the surrender function.

[Jutranjo]

I don't believe that for a second, sorry. Anyone who's going to do that will do it with or without the surrender function.

This was nearly all the games of HoN I played where the vote was put up at 15. They later added a 30 or 40 min for 4 out of 5 to go through. Ask anyone who's played HON.

 

There's assholes that will try a smoke gank on mid as enchantress with a wildkin by walking up to the enemy, fail, then spend the rest of the game away from team fights and build a rapier after a midas to feed it to the enemy. Or start buying couriers en masse and send em to die.

 

But the game doesn't incentivize giving up. If you get a button to get to play the next match at any point after 15 minutes, it will be used mostly by players who can't stand to play from behind.

 

Yeah it'll solve those 10 games out of 500 that you spend inside a fountain while a pudge was fishing but it also fucks up all the other games since you will never see a fucking tier 3 tower be attacked anymore. Call gg at 20 when the enemy antimage has battlefury, treads and manta guys. There's no chance he'd fuck up.

[Twig]

That was nearly none of the games of LoL I played where the vote was put up at... whatever time it becomes available in LoL.

By all accounts, HoN is the most vile of all communities in this genre, so, as someone else pointed out earlier, I don't think it's really fair to use that as a metric.

[Dewar]

I started seeing the mass courier spam lately, it's really wierd to run into someone's base and kill 20 donkeys.

 

On another note, this compendium thing finally grabbed onto that nerve in my brain that CoD:MW pulled on so long ago. The daily quests, the easy and often progression, and longer term goals have kept me coming back pretty much every day in the last week. I'm not sure if I want to lose my life to DOTA, but I can feel myself sliding toward the black hole.

[njoos]

I think the main point is that surrender would remove a lot of good experiences too. Comebacks when the team have struggled hard for 40 minutes are great. The shitty games where we get slaughtered are extremely rare in my experience. I can't remember if that even happened to me in dota2. I can see how you think there is some gain to be made. But I experience tough comebacks a lot more often than I experience the slaughter games you want to get out of. I don't want to lose those great comebacks just because me and my team are feeling down after a lost team fight.

I also think you are disregarding HoN a bit too much. HoN was a subset of dota, both in terms of heroes and community, for a very long time. I think it took 1 year of beta before they started adding heroes that weren't direct copies. The community was comparable during that time I think. So many things can be learned from mistakes made there. Surrender, or Concede in HoN, was a huge source of griefing and shittyness there. As well as good even games tossed away because of one bad team fight at Rosh pit. And those games were rare in HoN because their matchmaking was garbage.

[Twig]

The shitty games where we get slaughtered are extremely rare in my experience.

I'm happy for you.

[Jutranjo]

I'm happy for you.

I feel sorry for your luck if all you have are stomps in your past games.

[Twig]

Cool thanks guy.

[BusbyBerkeley]

This discussion is bad.

 

Who do you all play when you want to win AND have fun? Clockwork is my boy. Throw him solo off, hit 6, kill scrubs. Hookshot is a lot of fun and you can do some really cool shit with cogs. Flare is kinda boring, but it's always fun when you steal a kill from across the map, or snag a guy retreating to the fountatin. Battery assault is hilarious, especially against lords with long cast animations. Love that bucket of bolts.

[Twig]

Easy. Tiny. Murder everyone always. So good. SICK TOSS TINY! Thanks, friend.

[Cleinhun]

Who do you all play when you want to win AND have fun? 

Jakiro is who I go to when I've been on a losing streak. He's pretty strong in a dual or tri lane, and he wins your team so many fights with his crazy aoe damage. Plus hitting people with ice path is one of the only things in dota that I'm good at.

[Henroid]

I'm happy for you.