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Roderick

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Well, that's actually what I meant. Except that I believe it's always the case that people shouldn't be allowed to MAKE them stop (provided the intent is, in fact, not to harm, but to joke).

So who's to say where the line is between hate speech and a joke in poor taste? You say you think people should be stopped in the former case, but never in the latter...

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"It's just a joke!" is one of the foremost excuses offered by the most misogynist sections of lad culture.

Twig, it's as if you think culture itself doesn't exist, or you're not contributing to it.

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Anyway, this is what I'm talking about. I will always feel this way. For me, it's all about intent. Jokes are jokes. If the intent is to harm, BAD. If the intent is not to harm, FINE. The root is irrelevant. Only the intent matters. I believe this very strongly. It is core to my entire existence.

I disagree with this. I've heard this before, but it always seems weird to want to prioritise the feelings of the joke teller over the feelings of the (possibly many) recipients of the joke. If the joke upsets a group of people, but the teller didn't mean to upset, that doesn't and shouldn't negate the hurt it has caused others.

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Yes, and that's all terrible, horrible shit, because of the intention behind it… For me, it's all about intent. Jokes are jokes. If the intent is to harm, BAD. If the intent is not to harm, FINE. The root is irrelevant. Only the intent matters. I believe this very strongly. It is core to my entire existence.

First off, I apologize because it feels like we're piling on you now, but this thing about intent is important.

Intent is very much not at the heart of what castorp was saying. In fact, it's irrelevant. Those examples in castorp's second paragraph are bad, and you obviously agree with that. Just try to imagine what it would be like to have your life shaped by those kinds of prejudicial judgments from other people, and then imagine also having to deal with people who have no idea what that's like making jokes about it. It's going to suck, right? What does the intent of the jokester have to do with it?

Your examples from your own life aren't the same. I'm sure many of us on this forum can relate to being picked on for being nerdy or whatever. Nobody enjoys that, but there is no systematic oppression of nerds happening in the world that I'm aware of. There aren't towns where you have a good chance of being dragged behind a pickup truck until you die for being kind of a nerd or having weird teeth. When true menace or at least marginalization is an everyday reality in your life, jokes can take on a different meaning, and it has nothing at all to do with the intent of the speaker.

I hate going back to subject of rape jokes, but if you tell a joke in a room full of people (including women), there's probably someone there who has been the victim of rape. I mean, that's just a statistical reality. Your intent doesn't change that reality. Not caring about that is callous and solipsistic.

For another gruesome and maybe a bit facile example, lynching was still a popular pastime here in the states as recently as the 1960s. As in, there are many black people living right now who don't have fathers because they were hanged by mobs of white people. Do you want to take your chances and make a dumb joke about that?

I'm not advocating censorship here; I don't think any of us are. I'm advocating caring about the audience and not just your own "intent."

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Everyone hates me!

You know, in the case of comedy, the audience has the choice to ignore and walk away if they don't find it funny.

The worst thing about what all of you are saying is that, if you had your way, every single comedian would have to censor themselves constantly. They'd have no choice. Every joke would be about hamburgers being too raw or sidewalks having cracks in them or "oh my god that traffic was so bad am I right or am I right". Anything that's not "safe" has a chance to offend somebody. There's no way to avoid it 100% of the time unless you're going to talk about the most inane shit. Race, gender, sexuality. These are all sources of discrimination and that's horrible. But they're also magnificent fuel for comedy, whether you like it or not. In fact, most of the fuel for comedy comes from the Bad Shit that happens in our lives. But, okay, we take those out. Violence in general! I'm going to assume none of us here would ever maim, murder, or rape, because if any would, then this conversation is null and void anyway. Doesn't mean it's not open to jokes! Take that out, too, because someone else will be offended. That leaves cancer, AIDS, all kinds of other diseases. People might have relatives that have died because of these things! Take those out. Etc. etc. etc. What does that leave? Where do we draw the line? We can't spend all of our time worrying about the audience, or we won't have any comedy left.

And then, what if a guy whose father died of cancer is the one making the cancer jokes? Is he then forgiven? Or does he still have to worry about it? What if a black guy is the one joking about black people being slaves, or being lynched? What if a woman is joking about making a sandwich (god forbid) or what if she's a rape victim telling a rape joke?

Give me a hard line that can never be crossed. Until then, it's literally impossible to ask this of people.

I don't get it. You can't spend your time worrying about every shitty thing that might have happened to every single person. On an individual, one-to-one encounter is where these things truly matter. The audience can always walk away.

I really can't say anything more without just repeating myself, and also everything you guys are saying now is just a repeat. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. U:

Also:

I have the feeling that your 'black people and their jazz' remark merits another discussion, but maybe I'm over sensitive now and that's just how I read it.

That was a half-jokey comment. See! It's undeniable that black culture at the time contributed greatly to the development of jazz music (in fact, you could argue that jazz wouldn't exist, otherwise!), and yet somehow it triggered a negative response! I don't want to live in this world anymore. ) :

EDIT: oh god i hate these stupid colon crying faces so much D:

EDIT EDIT: However, I will concede that there is a place and time for these things. I actually never meant to imply that there WASN'T, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. I realized only moments ago that that might be one of the bigger sources of contention here! If someone were to go to a therapist's office and loudly joke about rape where a rape victim might be present, even if their intent is to get a laugh, that's fucking awful, and that person should feel ashamed. In such a case, the audience obviously can't just walk away. But if they're a stand-up comedian, or if they're doing a comedy podcast, or whatever... Context is also important.

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:pan:

U: < Oh noes, I am being oppressed by people who hate levity!

EXAMPLES! I DEMAND EXAMPLES OF THESE HYSTERICAL JOKES THAT HUMAN CULTURE AT LARGE WOULD SUFFER WITHOUT IF THE FEMINAZI HAD THEIR WAY.

I really can't say anything more without just repeating myself, and also everything you guys are saying now is just a repeat. Maybe we should just agree to disagree. U:

You keep talking about jokes while we're talking about BULLSHIT NOISE in the service of INSTITUTIONALIZED OPPRESSION. There s nothing to agree to disagree about when we're sortof not even talking about the same thing.

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Well, then why does everyone keep yelling at me*, because all I've ever talked about was jokes!

*Exaggeration for the sake of comedy!

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Well, then why does everyone keep yelling at me*, because all I've ever talked about was jokes!

*Exaggeration for the sake of comedy!

Can you at the very least understand that not everyone responds to these "jokes" in the same way you do, and in many cases the reason for that different response is due to factors that lie outside your experience? We get it, you just take everything as a joke and nothing in the universe offends you. However, it seems pretty unempathetic to imagine that the way things affect you is (or should be) identical to how they affect other people.

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Well, yes! I said as much at some point! People entirely have the right to be offended and walk away from someone telling jokes. They even have the right to explain why they're offended, and maybe the comedian in question will feel bad and understand and avoid telling such jokes in the future. But they don't have the right to demand the comedian cease telling those jokes. My position on this has always been as such. It is up to the comedian to decide whether or not he or she will stop making such jokes.

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When it's ingrained in a society that women are treated lesser than men, one cannot simply avoid going around "the comedian." The problem is far greater than that and to simply brush off sexist comments as jokes is nothing more than a dodge.

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I've never once talked about brushing off sexist comments as jokes. I've explicitly said I'm NOT talking about that, more than once, I feel like.

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My point is that I just don't think there's any room for sexist comments, be them jokes or otherwise. The people who make them have obviously haven't been in a situation where comments like are constantly thrown toward them and are surrounded by media that paints them as inferior. Maybe I'm just turning into an old turd, but I don't think that every single topic is joke material.

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And what if it's a woman making the jokes? This happens. In real life. There are female comedians, you know! And sometimes they talk about how ladies is ladies!

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OK Twig, I think there has been a miscommunication here, because you're really talking about professional comedians. It seemed earlier that you were defending things like the casual sexist comments that people make over the internet to strangers as being ok if the person making the comment thinks it's just a joke.

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OK Twig, I think there has been a miscommunication here, because you're really talking about professional comedians. It seemed earlier that you were defending things like the casual sexist comments that people make over the internet to strangers as being ok if the person making the comment thinks it's just a joke.

No, I'm not talking about professional comedians exclusively. But I am talking about that sort of context.

EDIT EDIT: However, I will concede that there is a place and time for these things. I actually never meant to imply that there WASN'T, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. I realized only moments ago that that might be one of the bigger sources of contention here! If someone were to go to a therapist's office and loudly joke about rape where a rape victim might be present, even if their intent is to get a laugh, that's fucking awful, and that person should feel ashamed. In such a case, the audience obviously can't just walk away. But if they're a stand-up comedian, or if they're doing a comedy podcast, or whatever... Context is also important.

Also, "casual sexist comments" are not jokes. Something like "make me a sandwich" is not a joke. It is an insult.

Now, it might be used as a joke between two people who have known each other for a long time. That's different. I would also argue that it could easily be used in a manner that is obviously a joke ON THE INTERNET to STRANGERS and be okay (even if it's not funny). Just casually dropping it is obviously wrong, and the intent is not to joke, no matter what they might say. Etc.

But regardless of the details, you guys still disagree with the core of my argument, as evidenced by the past three pages or so, which is where we should just agree to disagree.

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I think my biggest issue is that I see masculine and feminine properties and assume both males and females will take on certain roles or handle situations certain ways. Sometimes generalizing this way comes in handy, sometimes not. It's hard to always give the benefit of the doubt, but I try.

But I don't think jokes about those qualities are funny. Seems very lazy when people tell jokes like that.

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Nobody hates you Twig – okay, I have no idea who might hate you, but here, no, I don't think so. Good discussion, important point, misunderstandings notwithstanding.

For you it seems to come down to questions of censorship, protection of free speech, and others – myself included, somehow – come form the angle of discrimination, privilege and the rights of the underprivileged. Difficult stuff.

I would not argue for censorship, people can say what they want, but there just shouldn't be that many people who make dumb jokes or light-hearted remarks - that's what I argue for. People should not want to make those stupid jokes, because they know better. For me that is – ideally – not self-censorship, but rather education, sensibility, knowledge about the audience, the power of words, jokes and how lazy and dumb certain jokes are. And for every situation where some person makes an uneducated 'joke' there should be someone telling them that that was not okay. And ponies for everyone and fairy dust and leprechauns.

Humour in those directions would be rather like, what you said Twig, to shine a light on societies misunderstandings, prejudices, subvert them – jokes that talk about 'women', but whose target are not 'women', but the people who have preconceptions about them.

Reading that it rather sounds like rambling. Sorry.

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Okay, I agree with all of that. I don't think any of it runs counter to what I've been trying to say. U:

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Also, "casual sexist comments" are not jokes. Something like "make me a sandwich" is not a joke. It is an insult.

Twig, I think the problem here is that that's a distinction you have made and it's not clear where the line is. An utterance can be both a (poor) joke and an insult, and it's likely most of those 'sandwich' guys think they're only joking. A campaign of harassment is just one big joke they can all participate in and so even better.

So what people hear from your arguments is that it's okay to say anything at all as long as you say it was a joke, which happens a whole lot. That's not what you're saying, but that is what it sounds like.

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The thing that originally sparked all of this was when I said it annoys me that people get upset at something that is clearly a joke, whether it's satire or excessive hyperbole or whatever. It's a joke. I think it's an incredible waste of everyone's time to get in an uproar over something like that.

Also, yes, that blurry line is exactly the problem with all of our arguments. There is no goddamn line. It's different for every person, so how can we assume one person's line is going to be the same as your line or my line or his line or her line. So, for me, it's impossible to pass judgment on another human being based on anything other than what they do. If they make an offhand comment about a sandwich and then the next day go on to donate money to that women in video games kickstarter thing... are they a bad person? Answer: no, and I won't hold the sandwich thing against them, except for that they make unfunny jokes. If the same guy makes that comment repeatedly over the course of a few years before donating money, I'll begin to suspect whether or not he's actually joking. When he later proves he was joking and that he actually cares about women's rights through the act of donating, then I'll forgive him for being horribly unfunny. If the guy never donates but performs another action etc blah blah repeat ad nauseam. If he never does anything that proves he cares about equality between men and woman, but also never does anything to prove he's AGAINST it... then who am I to judge him? He's just some dude making unfunny jokes.

There is an obvious difference between the asshole who hates women having any power and the idiot who thinks he's funny. I mean, I've lived my whole life during an era where the word "gay" is used as an insult, and yet I know that none of my friends who use it are actually against homosexuality. I used to do it, too, but one day I just decided to stop. Some people never reach that point, for whatever reason. It's lame. Hell, I've had gay friends who use the word as an insult, and they're fully aware of the implications. God, I could come up with a dozen examples of similar situations throughout my life. More, undoubtedly, if I really took the time to think about it. Gender, sexuality, race, religion, politics. Whatever the hell.

This has now reached the point of running around in circles. Most of my posts have simply been rephrasing things or clarifying in different ways. It's driving me crazy!

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I think a large part of the problem is that when you're 15, rape jokes are hilarious. So are jokes about AIDS and cancer and women. It's funny because you're saying things that you shouldn't say or something, I don't know, it's been a while since I was last 15. I guess it's like swearing or something.

But then when you actually think about it, these jokes aren't actually funny at all. Just mouthing off about women and sandwiches, and people with AIDS and calling your mates 'nigger' as an hilarious risque greeting just isn't funny. When you actually think about it, all that's happening is that you're simply being needlessly offensive.

You say, Twig, that it always seems to be feminists who get annoyed at these jokes. I'm sorry that you were bullied, so was I, but that is different from constantly struggling to prove yourself in society because you're a woman. When every single day you deal with sexist jokes, cat calls and sexual harassment from random men on the street (who get aggressive if you reject them because you should be grateful for the attention, etc... you very quickly realise that these jokes are not funny at all.

The best example I can think of to illustrate what I'm trying to say is this: I worked in a pub while I was a student. Sometimes the table numbers would get messed up for food orders, so I'd have to walk around the entire pub asking each table of people one-by-one: Did you order food? And every single group would reply in the same way... slight pause, and then someone would pipe up: "No, but I'll have it if it's going free" at which point all the others at the table would peel with laughter as though they were the first people in the world to say it ever. One time I couldn't find where the food was going the first time, so I went around the pub a second time and I swear to god the same people repeated the same joke, less than five minutes later, as though it was fresh.

So, these people think they're being funny and witty and sure, they laugh, but what's actually happening is that they are wasting my time and making the same repetitive, unfunny joke that everyone else does. If NOBODY made this joke, there would still be exactly the same amount of hilarity in the world, maybe even more because people would try to fill the void of stupidity with something that might turn out to be genuinely funny. Maybe. But also there'd be the added bonus of fewer people wasting my goddamned time because they think they're hilarious.

So imagine that. Imagine being a woman and every day you deal with the same unfunny, lazy, oppressive jokes, and when you call people out on them they accuse you of being a feminist (as though it's a bad thing to be a feminist, but these people are usually not the smartest), or uptight, or tell you that you don't have a sense of humour, or even sometimes will get angry and aggressive. Or sometimes it happens at work, like when a customer in the guitar shop told me to go make him a sandwich, and then you can't do anything but bite your lip and die a little bit on the inside. Oh sure it was clearly a joke, but he was a stranger who had just basically immediately pointed out that I'm a woman and don't belong near guitars, or whatever. Or actually, on the subject of work, imagine someone at work telling you he thinks women don't make very good guitarists, but are great at playing bass!

Today I got off my bike to push it up a steep hill in the rain. A guy stopped me and said "I saw you cycling down the hill a moment ago, now you're going back up, I guess you must just love getting wet huh?" and winked. I didn't really know what to say and suspected it was probably an horrific innuendo but wasn't sure, so I smiled weakly but continued pushing my bike past him. He continued to yell after me that he had been enjoying watching me cycle up the hill at which point I decided it was probably time to ignore him and walk on, at which point his attitude changed and he yelled something about me being a bitch.

So when I get offended at people making sexist jokes, maybe this gives you some idea as to why. They're not funny. They're lazy, they're an indication that I probably wouldn't get along very well with someone anyway, and they help perpetrate a much bigger problem. I also call women out on sexism and misandry masked as Faux-Feminism.

I found a great article once which I'll try to dig out for you again, but it's 1am now and I have work tomorrow. It's written by a guy and makes some great points on sexism towards women and how men perceive and react to it. One thing that really stood out to me was when he mentioned Gender Ambassadors... basically, due to an entire lifetime of jokes and derogatory comments, women will have their confidence broken down and often feel like when they make a mistake, they are letting down all other women. A good example is when a woman stalls a car and panics that people are going to think it's because she's a 'stupid woman'/'woman driver'. I read that and immediately thought about how much I panic when a guy at work plays Britney Spears across the store, because I worry customers will immediately assume it's me - the ONE girl in the guitar store! Playing Britney Spears! And of course loads of customers do assume that. In fact, most customers assume I can't actually play guitar and that I'm sort of bizarre token female. I used to worry about how a lot of my actions were perceived in case they came across as being a 'silly girl' thing. Luckily now I rest assured all the stupid bullshit I've ever done and said has been a stupid human thing to do, instead of it being a 'stupid woman' thing. :)

Sorry this was rant. Maybe I'll edit it to make it more readable tomorrow. I just wanted to try and help explain from a female, feminist perspective, why these jokes don't tend to go down well. And I'm a proper feminist btw, who loves men and women equally, not the sort of person who claims to be a feminist because men are dumb ;)

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(No hate here, Twig).

This is recent, and seems very relevant:

http://outsports.com...-cricket-jokes/

A comedian made gay jokes, and at first, didn't understand why they were so offensive to people. He had a typical piece of obliviousness in "But I'm not homophobic". As friends peeled away those bits of ignorance, he came to see how and why his jokes were harmful:

It is not that we can’t laugh at and with each other. It is not a question of oversensitivity. The problem is that today, as I write this, young men and women whose behaviors, choices or attitudes are not deemed “man enough” or “normal” are being subjected to all kinds of abuse from verbal to physical to societal. They are being demeaned and threatened because they don’t fit the group’s idea of what a “real man” or a “real woman” are supposed to look like, act like and feel like.

For these people, my building a joke upon the premise I did added to the pejorative stereotype that they are forced to deal with everyday.

It's really not a case of "If people don't like it, they can just ignore it or walk away". Stuff we do and say can be actively harmful, even if we don't perceive it ourselves as discriminatory, oppressive or annoying. By normalising what we may think of as harmless fun, we maintain a foundation for and give greater license to those who are genuinely prejudiced and malicious.

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Argh stop apologizing for me being bullied. It's not a big deal and I don't care and I never said it was comparable to being shit on because you're black or whatever. Everyone is bullied! ARGH.

edit: forgot a word! DON'T CARE DON'T

And, you know, I've been mocked plenty of times in my life for not being "man enough" or whatever. Not fulfilling (or being expected to fulfill) gender roles is something that happens on both sides. Undeniably(!) worse for women, but it's not like men have never experienced it. I DO know where this stuff comes from. I'm not ignorant of it. I don't have to imagine, because I've experienced it, and I've been around people who have had it worse (both men and women, black and white, whatever).

You say, Twig, that it always seems to be feminists who get annoyed at these jokes.

Nooooo, I said that it happens everywhere, but that I see it happen most often with feminists. It's entirely possible that that's just because it gets the most, uh, "press" among the people I interact with.

also i'm horrible about making posts 'cause i just keep editing and editing and editing i'm so sorry

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It's really not a case of "If people don't like it, they can just ignore it or walk away". Stuff we do and say can be actively harmful, even if we don't perceive it ourselves as discriminatory, oppressive or annoying. By normalising what we may think of as harmless fun, we maintain a foundation for and give greater license to those who are genuinely prejudiced and malicious.

I don't like at all the idea of 'normalising' ideas; I think it's very dangerous. What needs to happen though, is that everybody should have the responsibility to engage in the dialog that emerges from what they say. Basically, this:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-55wC5dEnc[/media]

Some of my favorite comedians are harmlessly funny but some other are really, really thought provoking and sometimes offending (Chris Morris, Pierre Desproges, etc..); but they do reflect on and off stage on the impact of their jokes..

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