Nintendo 3DS

[syntheticgerbil]

I can't really find the article I'm referring to, but there was a time at some point in 2011 or 2012 where some dude wrote this long ass article on how the best Zelda is the first one for NES and it's all downhill from there. And cited the amount of time wasted grinding on the overworld as part of the beauty of exploration.

 

So I will just use this one, since it is part of that echochamber: http://kotaku.com/5885595/zelda-just-keeps-getting-worse-but-it-isnt-beyond-saving

 

One of the greatest offenders occurred early on with A Link to the Past: most bomb-able walls became visible. What had been a potential site of mystery in the original Legend of Zelda (every rockface) became just another job for your trusty keyring. Insert here. Go on about your business.

Babies need cracks in the wall. It kills exploration.

 

Also on a similar note, does everyone remember how hilarious stupid it was to run around in Wolfenstein 3D going, "uh uh" on every wall until you found a secret?

Personally, I think the original Legend of Zelda's high points were the dungeons and I had a Nintendo in the 80s, never bothering to finish neither of the NES Zeldas until my late teens. I'm not kidding myself into thinking any of that time wasting philosophy should return. We have Free to Play games to fill that hole now.

[RubixsQube]

I can't really find the article I'm referring to, but there was a time at some point in 2011 or 2012 where some dude wrote this long ass article on how the best Zelda is the first one for NES and it's all downhill from there. And cited the amount of time wasted grinding on the overworld as part of the beauty of exploration.

 

So I will just use this one, since it is part of that echochamber: http://kotaku.com/5885595/zelda-just-keeps-getting-worse-but-it-isnt-beyond-saving

 

Babies need cracks in the wall. It kills exploration.

 

Also on a similar note, does everyone remember how hilarious stupid it was to run around in Wolfenstein 3D going, "uh uh" on every wall until you found a secret?

Personally, I think the original Legend of Zelda's high points were the dungeons and I had a Nintendo in the 80s, never bothering to finish neither of the NES Zeldas until my late teens. I'm not kidding myself into thinking any of that time wasting philosophy should return. We have Free to Play games to fill that hole now.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head: it's hilarious and stupid to walk around bombing everything until you find a secret, or, at least in some of the game boy games, hitting all the walls with your sword. Because of the fact that video game reality is limited by its systems (bombs only allow you to go through walls defined by the game makers), it's really annoying to the player to make them try to figure out your secrets, unless you give them clues. I've never been offended by bombable walls being clearly indicated. What I'd like is for Zelda to be more open, taking many pages of notes from Link Between Worlds and running with that concept. Make it so that we can see something is bombable...but it's in a weird place inside of vast chambers we randomly stumble upon while exploring caves in Hyrule. Make it so that dungeons feel more like the unknown, and less like The Thing We Have To Go Through. Go back to the idea of Shigeru walking into a cave as a child, and give us that. 

[syntheticgerbil]

I think you hit the nail on the head: it's hilarious and stupid to walk around bombing everything until you find a secret, or, at least in some of the game boy games, hitting all the walls with your sword.

Oh man, I forgot about the sword clink sound in Awakening and the Oracle games. While it wasn't liberally used like bombing random walls in LoZ, almost every time I was stuck or missed something it usually would have something to do with those damn sword clinks.

[Twig]

I mean I agree with your premise that bombing every wall to find the hidden doors is dumb. I don't like it, either.

 

But I think once again you're missing the point. It's the sheer lack of any hand-holding that can makes the first game their favorite game, and, yes, Zelda has only gone downhill from there in that regard. It's not the invisible hidden doors specifically that appeals to people. It's that you're dumped into the game without any direction and it's up to you to figure out what to do. There's a lot of appeal there.

[RubixsQube]

It's that you're dumped into the game without any direction and it's up to you to figure out what to do. There's a lot of appeal there.

 

I think that a lot of modern video game fans want this Skyrim-like open world, no instructions situation, and I think that this is fine. The thing about video games is that we aren't quite there. We still have to fight the systems and limitations of video games. The original Legend of Zelda does essentially just let you go and wander and figure everything out on your own, but it's still quite oblique and as a result, frustrating. Yes, perhaps this is asking for Nick Breckon to come call me a baby, but I think that until games can support very complex systems that allow more creativity in problem solving, it's sometimes very nice to have an idea of the path, at least at the start, to see how systems work, and to get some understanding of what you can and can't do in this world. The problem with modern iterations of Zelda  is that we're not the primary audience anymore, and there's no way to tweak things such that we can tell the signposts to shut up. 

[Twig]

I strongly disagree with the idea that games need to be more complex than they currently are to support open-ended gameplay. In fact, I believe open-ended gameplay is often very well supported by fewer and simpler mechanics. Like, I don't know, just pulling an example out of thin air, The Legend of Zelda for Nintendo Entertainment System.

 

You could certainly argue that if that game was released today, it would be terrible, but that doesn't preclude a more modern game like it existing and doing well.

 

I hate this argument because it just feels like "well I don't like it so obviously it can't be done".

[RubixsQube]

I understand what you're saying, and I respect your opinion. I love The Legend of Zelda, and I have no idea how it would fare today. If I'm feeling negative, then yes, I would think that people would be unfairly critical, but that's perhaps a symptom of modern gaming sentiment. 

 

But what I'm trying to say is that right now, open-ended gameplay is tough to do well, and often you end up just fighting against systems built in. The Idle Thumbs guys talk about this, in a way, on the latest podcast, when they discuss 80 Days. 80 Days, it seems, is very open-ended, and has a lot of content, but still you're limited to what's been built into the game. I'm saying that to support a game that moves further along in this direction, you have change the systems. Farcry 2 is celebrated because it had interacting systems that worked quite well, and allowed you to solve problems in unique ways. The Legend of Zelda lets you do whatever you want, but then you have to do what the designers want you to do, you just get to pick the order. 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I want you to understand my tone is mostly just conversational. I am someone who also yearns for simplicity, but it's very, very hard to balance this and the desire for open freedom without butting up against the simplicity again and again. 

[Merus]

The elephant in the room of this conversation is Minecraft.

[RubixsQube]

I don't know if anyone could make a solid argument that Minecraft's systems are "simple." Also, everyone who plays Minecraft immediately goes and looks up some chart or guide to figure out how to craft various items, because the crafting system is otherwise oblique. 

[Merus]

I'd disagree; you can get pretty far in Minecraft without ever bothering to learn the more complex systems. Redstone and potion brewing are both fairly complex, but neither are they required. The most complex part you're forced to interact with are the crafting systems, and even then you can get all the tools you need to interact with the world just putting the three things you've found in the crafting grid and seeing what happens.

 

The only things you really need to understand are that you get wood from trees, you need to make shelter and a light source, and that better quality tools let better quality materials spawn. Good luck, have fun, hunt diamonds. In terms of the actions players have, it's essentially 'remove block' and 'add block' (or 'attack monster') and the complexity comes from the world generation, which has long been Minecraft's greatest asset.

 

But you are, of course, right that even this is a bridge too far for the vast majority of people, who have to look up external guides just to understand how to participate. There's an argument that this lack of tutorial is one of the reasons why it was so successful; the reasoning goes that the lack of handholding forces potential players to engage with the player community much earlier than other games ever do, and that community compels them to explore further than they otherwise would have.

 

To bring this back to Zelda, though, the vast majority of the time when you're trying to find a secret in Zelda you're looking for the one exception to the rule that walls don't do anything when you bomb them. That's not especially interesting unless there's some kind of external clue to say that this wall is an exception. In Minecraft, the dirt always responds when removed, because there's just more dirt behind it and if you dig yourself into a hole you'll have to put it back to get out.

[BusbyBerkeley]

I had to use a guide to play Majora's Mask and It's still my favorite and also the best Zelda. I think that the backlash against the backlash of the initial backlash is weird. The game was generally not compared favorably to OoT at the time which I think most people still consider to be the best of the series. So MM developed a cult following when more and more people played it with maybe lowered expectations and found out it's actually a weird and cool game. Wind Waker is also good. 

 

Can anyone recommend a cheap eshop game? I have around five nintendo bux on my account and I don't know what to get. I'd ideally like to get something puzzle-y or arcadey with a lot of mindless replay value.

[Yasawas]

Do you have Pullblox/Pushmo? Different names in Europe/NA but the same games, a lovely wee puzzler from Intelligent Systems with loads of levels and a ton of user-generated content too.

[Griddlelol]

Crimson shroud is supposedly quite good. I've not played it much, but it's basically a table top RPG on the 3ds.

[BobbyBesar]

There's Rusty's Real Deal Baseball, which is free, but has IAP, but one of the mechanics is that you can haggle in game to reduce the real money cost. It's weird.

Crimson shroud was my least favorite of the Guild01 titles.

How much are the "art style" games these days? Digidrive is among my favorite games ever.

[Twig]

The elephant in the room of this conversation is Minecraft.

I was going to mention that, actually. I can't remember why I decided not to. One of my favorite "recent" gaming experiences was starting up the Minecraft alpha and just playing and trying to figure things out on my own. It was so great.

[miffy495]

I had to use a guide to play Majora's Mask and It's still my favorite and also the best Zelda. I think that the backlash against the backlash of the initial backlash is weird. The game was generally not compared favorably to OoT at the time which I think most people still consider to be the best of the series. So MM developed a cult following when more and more people played it with maybe lowered expectations and found out it's actually a weird and cool game. Wind Waker is also good. 

 

Can anyone recommend a cheap eshop game? I have around five nintendo bux on my account and I don't know what to get. I'd ideally like to get something puzzle-y or arcadey with a lot of mindless replay value.

 

Pushmo is fantastic. Also, if you want to drop $5 on some puzzles, there is a selection of Picross games that may meet your needs. They're all pretty solid (disclaimer, I love Picross so much. SO MUCH.).

[N1njaSquirrel]

I had to use a guide to play Majora's Mask and It's still my favorite and also the best Zelda. I think that the backlash against the backlash of the initial backlash is weird. The game was generally not compared favorably to OoT at the time which I think most people still consider to be the best of the series. So MM developed a cult following when more and more people played it with maybe lowered expectations and found out it's actually a weird and cool game. Wind Waker is also good. 

 

Can anyone recommend a cheap eshop game? I have around five nintendo bux on my account and I don't know what to get. I'd ideally like to get something puzzle-y or arcadey with a lot of mindless replay value.

 

Tappingo is a great little puzzler that's super cheap. Probably around $5. Check it!

[Yasawas]

Woke up to the FedEx man delivering me this little bundle this morning, an early birthday gift to myself. It is pretty nice. I'd wanted a Japanese one for a while anyway for the numerous interesting exclusives, and with the release of the New model and my Vita being literally unplayable due to the pain it leaves me in to hold it, I decided to sell the later and do a little importing. I went with the regular model as I've only ever used an XL and while it's nice having all that screen I do find it a tad heavy and bulky, and nowhere near as comfy to hold as a DSi or DS Lite, not to mention DS games look pretty rotten on it. This was a bit of a test to see which model I'll upgrade that one to come the European or Australian launch.

 

+ The size is personal preference but I think I'm going for the regular myself. It is noticeably lighter, it doesn't give me the cramp some complained about with the OG 3DS, I can reach ZL/ZR comfortably and the screen size is fine really.

 

+ You cannot break the 3D effect in this, it's the best thing. The front camera now tracks your eyes and adjusts the 3D display to account for you moving so you don't get the distortion or ghosting you used to. I wish I had Ocarina of Time for this as that was the one that really stood out to me before as looking lovely provided you did not move one millimetre out of the sweet spot but so far I can't fault this based on what I've played and seen. If you look away and glance back quickly you can see a flicker as it adjusts but it's very quick and I can't imagine it'll be a problem. This is how it should have been to start with.

 

+ Everything about the OS is faster. You press the Home button and it actually suspends now! It's like using a device from 2014. I'm not crazy about the 3DS OS but this makes it a bit more tolerable.

 

+ The face buttons feel a bit more responsive and most importantly are in SNES colours. I like that the gamecard slot is on the bottom left now as I've ejected a few by accident as I tend to lift my system around the middle when it's in sleep mode.

 

+ Their eShop has a ton of stuff we're never seeing including 100+ demos, PC Engine and Game Gear games, F2P stuff

 

+ Faceplates are rad and it only really strikes me now I see it in the flesh without them. I should have got some and will in my next order. I'm a 33 year old man playing with a child's toy in public, might as well go balls out with it.

 

- Nintendo's insane accounts systems that partly unifies aspects of NNID and Club Nintendo and ties them to Miis and consoles in a way I still don't fully understand is fucking mental in English but oh my god that was an ordeal in Japanese. It was the best part of an hours work to set it up so I could download demos.

 

- The stylus is garbage and kept in the absolute worst place, it pulls down almost directly below the Home button. It's a long time since I've used one but I'm sure it's the same as the original fat DS one.

 

I haven't used that weird C-stick thing yet as I don't have anything that supports it but it's a definite oddity. I didn't realise this but there's no travel in it whatsoever, it's like a touch-sensitive plastic nipple. If there's a Smash demo on the eShop I'll check it out later. Overall pretty happy with it but I'm not sure it's an essential upgrade for existing owners to be honest. I finally get to play Dragon Quest 7 and Daigasso Band Brothers at some point this week and that's good enough for me but it's maybe a hard sell if they don't get more than Xenoblade as exclusives, and I'm not convinced that's a big mainstream title to begin with.

[Sno]

About the head-tracking system they implemented to make sure the 3D doesn't "break", does it work in low light conditions? Is there also any noticeable lag to the tracking, do you notice any delay as it tries to keep up with your head movements?

[Yasawas]

I tried it in absolute darkness this morning for science and noticed there was a slight red glow around the camera which appeared just after I turned the room light off so there must be some allowance for it, tracking seemed just as good as in daylight to be honest. No noticeable lag in real use either, you can see the flicker as it readjusts if you keep looking away then back at it quickly but for use on bumpy public transport etc it's perfect. Also doesn't seem to impact the battery much like I'd feared.

 

In other 3DS news I started playing Kirby Triple Deluxe yesterday and it's the best, I love Kirby.

[Griddlelol]

The head tracker is an awesome idea. I usually turn 3d off because I hate sitting in one position for long periods of time. 

Question: Does the head tracker work on a bus? The 3d is impossible to use on a bus, but the fast, random and consistent movement of a bus might be too much for the tracker. So yeah: do more science.

[Sno]

Question: Does the head tracker work on a bus? The 3d is impossible to use on a bus, but the fast, random and consistent movement of a bus might be too much for the tracker. So yeah: do more science.

 

...but for use on bumpy public transport etc it's perfect.

[Griddlelol]

oops, didn't read fully!

[Dewar]

I tried it in absolute darkness this morning for science and noticed there was a slight red glow around the camera which appeared just after I turned the room light off so there must be some allowance for it, tracking seemed just as good as in daylight to be honest. No noticeable lag in real use either, you can see the flicker as it readjusts if you keep looking away then back at it quickly but for use on bumpy public transport etc it's perfect. Also doesn't seem to impact the battery much like I'd feared.

 

In other 3DS news I started playing Kirby Triple Deluxe yesterday and it's the best, I love Kirby.

 

Sounds like it might be doing some work in infrared then, Kinect style.

[Yasawas]

Any love for Azure Striker Gunvolt? I know the name and that it got some buzz at launch but never came to Europe as far as I'm aware and I've just realised I can buy the Japanese version including a freebie (Mighty Gunvolt, whatever that is) if I buy before the end of the week. Worth £11?