The Witness by Jonathan Blow

[Dr Wookie]

A legitimate, non-trolling question -- I see a lot of folks in this thread expressing disappointment with themselves for seeking hints. In my experience, I would've thrown this game out the window two dozen hours ago without at least a bit of light encouragement and hints from folks. No outright solutions, but those occasional hints have been lifesavers.

Is it a pride thing? I've figured out the vast majority of things myself, but, as others have observed, there are some places where the tutorializing does a poor job of showing the player the next logical step (that one goddamned marsh puzzle, for instance), and, I take that as a bit of a flaw in the game (or, a flaw in the game's ability to communicate to me).

Don't get me wrong, I'm practically addicted to The Witness. I cannot stop playing, even though I am the furthest thing from a puzzle/logic whiz, and progress is coming in fits and starts, with long, frustrating dry spells. The puzzles themselves are 99% brilliant, and I really love exploring the island, encountering the different bits and pieces of logic.

(the statues, on the other hand...)

There are some things that I don't care too much about, such as finding those + puzzles. However, I have made sure that I have solved every line puzzle myself, albeit with a couple of hints on the general methods. This is partly pride, but also reinforcing the rules in my head; once I solve it one way, I go back and see if I can find other valid solutions.

I struggled for ages with that particular marsh puzzle, having almost got it fairly early on, but missing a vital rule. There is a door in the village that seems grossly unfair as it appears to introduce a new rule or breaks an old one (coloured stars).

I have lit 7 lasers and have gone to the next area, but have not reached the end yet.

[iax]

A legitimate, non-trolling question -- I see a lot of folks in this thread expressing disappointment with themselves for seeking hints. In my experience, I would've thrown this game out the window two dozen hours ago without at least a bit of light encouragement and hints from folks. No outright solutions, but those occasional hints have been lifesavers.

 

Is it a pride thing? I've figured out the vast majority of things myself, but, as others have observed, there are some places where the tutorializing does a poor job of showing the player the next logical step (that one goddamned marsh puzzle, for instance), and, I take that as a bit of a flaw in the game (or, a flaw in the game's ability to communicate to me).

 

I've looked up 2 hints for 2 very late/post-game things (how to access the "bonus" area because I couldn't find the thing I needed to find + confirmation if I understand the wreck puzzle correctly) but I avoided looking up anything before that like a plague.

 

It's not about pride at all, it's just that not realizing something, being stuck for a little and figuring stuff out on my own is what the game is. Giving up on a puzzle, going somewhere else or turning the game off for a while, and then returning to the puzzle with a fresh perspective and solving it is The Witness's equivalent of e.g. playing through a story quest in The Witcher. I feel the game is also very explicitly telling me that. There's not that many "rewards" for progressing in the game, no cutscenes and almost no achievements (although apparently there's a bit more in the PS4 version), you can get to the ending after solving only a portion of the puzzles and the game is ok with that.

 

As for the game doing a poor job tutorializing, I think the Giant Bomb video touches on that a bit. At one point Jonathan Blow says that he knew there are parts of the game that will be harder for some people than others (different parts for different people), but he just didn't want to compromise on what he thought is interesting even when it goes against the "agreed" rules of game design a bit. That's not to say that the game is perfect and there's no place where stuff could be more clear without making the game worse of course (Also I don't think there's a single place 100% of people are super stuck in the "main" game, e.g. I never had a huge problem with the marsh but had a bit of trouble in some other places that not many people mentioned here).

[pyeixe]

I'm not bothered about coming here for hints/discussion. If my friends played this id probably be having similar chats with them.

I am in a late game area with many puzzles and I think I am on tilt. I have open a couple of doors and got about 6 puzzles to do in here and I'm just staring at them with no clue.

Can I clarify a mechanic about stars in relation to this area?

so I believed that there can only be a pair of stars per side of a line. This particular puzzle has three stars and tetronimos. There is a similar puzzle in the treetops, where you align the extra star with a piece of like coloured Tetris pieces. I try and do that on this puzzle and fail.

Due to the nature of the area there is no flashing to indicate what is failing so I am not sure what is going wrong. Am I on the right track or am I missing something?

Fun fact, my phone autocorrects tetronimos to retro imps. I know which I prefer.

[Professor Video Games]

Can I clarify a mechanic about stars in relation to this area?

so I believed that there can only be a pair of stars per side of a line. This particular puzzle has three stars and tetronimos. There is a similar puzzle in the treetops, where you align the extra star with a piece of like coloured Tetris pieces. I try and do that on this puzzle and fail.

Due to the nature of the area there is no flashing to indicate what is failing so I am not sure what is going wrong. Am I on the right track or am I missing something?

 

You're probably missing something in how the stars work. See the spoiler if you want more specifics on their mechanics. You could also post a pic of your failing solution if you want some more specific help.

Stars need to have exactly one other symbol in their area of the same color and it doesn't necessarily have to be another star (like how in that treetop puzzle you mentioned the star pairs with the tetromino). It's likely you're failing because there is more than one tetromino in the star's zone that is the same color. It's that or the shape is wrong, but I doubt that's your problem.

[pyeixe]

You're probably missing something in how the stars work. See the spoiler if you want more specifics on their mechanics. You could also post a pic of your failing solution if you want some more specific help.

Stars need to have exactly one other symbol in their area of the same color and it doesn't necessarily have to be another star (like how in that treetop puzzle you mentioned the star pairs with the tetromino). It's likely you're failing because there is more than one tetromino in the star's zone that is the same color. It's that or the shape is wrong, but I doubt that's your problem.

And with that, the door is open. Thanks!

[Dewar]

A legitimate, non-trolling question -- I see a lot of folks in this thread expressing disappointment with themselves for seeking hints. In my experience, I would've thrown this game out the window two dozen hours ago without at least a bit of light encouragement and hints from folks. No outright solutions, but those occasional hints have been lifesavers.

 

Is it a pride thing? I've figured out the vast majority of things myself, but, as others have observed, there are some places where the tutorializing does a poor job of showing the player the next logical step (that one goddamned marsh puzzle, for instance), and, I take that as a bit of a flaw in the game (or, a flaw in the game's ability to communicate to me).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm practically addicted to The Witness. I cannot stop playing, even though I am the furthest thing from a puzzle/logic whiz, and progress is coming in fits and starts, with long, frustrating dry spells. The puzzles themselves are 99% brilliant, and I really love exploring the island, encountering the different bits and pieces of logic.

 

(the statues, on the other hand...)

For me, it's a combination of pride (I'd love to be able to say I completed the entire "main" play through without hints) and seeing how other people have had a satisfying "wow of discovery" that I missed out on, and I wonder if I'd just been a little more stubborn if I'd have stumbled across the answer by accident.

[unimural]

A legitimate, non-trolling question -- I see a lot of folks in this thread expressing disappointment with themselves for seeking hints. In my experience, I would've thrown this game out the window two dozen hours ago without at least a bit of light encouragement and hints from folks. No outright solutions, but those occasional hints have been lifesavers.

 

Is it a pride thing? I've figured out the vast majority of things myself, but, as others have observed, there are some places where the tutorializing does a poor job of showing the player the next logical step (that one goddamned marsh puzzle, for instance), and, I take that as a bit of a flaw in the game (or, a flaw in the game's ability to communicate to me).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm practically addicted to The Witness. I cannot stop playing, even though I am the furthest thing from a puzzle/logic whiz, and progress is coming in fits and starts, with long, frustrating dry spells. The puzzles themselves are 99% brilliant, and I really love exploring the island, encountering the different bits and pieces of logic.

 

(the statues, on the other hand...)

 

Back when Uru: Ages of Myst servers were still running I met a fellow there, who never ran. He walked everywhere. He said that if felt that he needed to run, he took it as a sign that he was too impatient to play the game and should stop. Even back then, I kind of thought he was on to something. Since then, I've taken to heart that I can be my own worst enemy, and that with simple guidelines I can avoid sabotaging my enjoyment of a thing. So, effectively I'm a poorly function puzzle solver and enjoying puzzle games is an uneasy truce between joy of solving puzzles, progressing in the game and actively disliking being fruitlessly stuck on a puzzle.

 

Hints, in general, make solving puzzles less fun. The chemical cocktail my brain rewarded itself with is lessened by the knowledge of the hint. Sometimes to the point of souring the whole thing. Resorting to an outright solution is often very antithetical to my enjoyment, and will make it more difficult for me to enjoy the rest of the game. Using just one hint makes me less patient, more easily frustrated, and thus more likely to 'need hints'.

 

With most games, I also want to progress in the game. I like stories even more than puzzles. Worlds, characters. For example, in an adventure game, with all the narrative elements spurring on, the desire to see more of the story can become a reason to resort to a hint, or even outright solutions. "I just want to see the story."

 

This is sometimes tied to the third aspect, frustration with being stuck. It can be horribly unfun to be stuck on a puzzle. This is where the enjoyment management aspect kicks in for me. I've learned that I'm very irrational and react poorly to certain stimuli. Sometimes, when I'm really stuck with a puzzle and I finally figure it out on my own, I will hate the puzzle, I will hate the game, I will hate the designer and I will hate myself. Slight hyberbole, sort of, but appropriate. And it'll pass, but it's still not a nice thing to experience.

 

I've kind of learned a set of rules by which I can enjoy stuff the most, and for a pure puzzle game like The Witness, I should not look at any hints until I consider myself done with the game. I will only feel bad if I do. It is kind of preferably to not finish the game instead of spoiling the puzzles. With The Witness, at a certain point I realized I couldn't do the sensible thing and stop playing, despite considering myself 'done' with game. I suspected I would only frustrate myself without pretty-much-solution level of a hint for a particular puzzle.

 

A very very slight spoiler, if you haven't understood the idea of the jungle/bamboo area puzzles:

 

It was a sound puzzle. I eventually even considered recording the sounds and rendering them visually to solve the puzzle, but I was lazy and tired. I would have considered that a perfectly honest way of solving the puzzle, and perhaps that's what I should have done.

 

In general I consider using any general tools, or tools that you make yourself as fair game. I admit it's a bit different a category, but it doesn't detract from my enjoyment in the least.

 

While I play a lot of puzzle and adventure games, I'd consider myself average, at best. I think I've been more stuck in just about all of them than I was with The Witness. Actually, the only game that I can think off the top of my head that felt the same is Cliff Johnson's masterpiece Fool's Errand.

 

In fact, if you've never played them, like more linguistic puzzles and have a decent grasp on English

"Blue Jay? Is that a nick name for someone famous?"

, you absolutely should check it out. It's a bit silly mix of a short story and puzzle game with some truly unique puzzles and a wonderful setting. 3 in Three is equally brilliant, yet slightly less wonderful. At the Carnival is merely great. They are available for free.

 

http://fools-errand.com/07-DL/index.htm

 

The 2012 sequel The Fool and His Money is a bit punishing, at least for me. And it is an example of a game I eventually decided to stop playing due to me not being able to continue without ruining the game for myself. Perhaps I'll return to it now that I'm still craving for more puzzles - the map section is bound to be fun.

 

As a side note, despite my strictness with regards to hints, I really really enjoy playing adventure/puzzle games with a friend. In fact that would be my preferred way of playing. Of course not all friends are equally puzzle friendly, and unfortunately haven't really had a chance to do that in a long while. But for a good ten years of so I think I played half of my adventure/puzzle games together with someone else.

[Danielle]

As for the game doing a poor job tutorializing, I think the Giant Bomb video touches on that a bit. At one point Jonathan Blow says that he knew there are parts of the game that will be harder for some people than others (different parts for different people), but he just didn't want to compromise on what he thought is interesting even when it goes against the "agreed" rules of game design a bit. That's not to say that the game is perfect and there's no place where stuff could be more clear without making the game worse of course (Also I don't think there's a single place 100% of people are super stuck in the "main" game, e.g. I never had a huge problem with the marsh but had a bit of trouble in some other places that not many people mentioned here).

 

I'm really looking forward to watching that GB video - but only after I've "finished" the game. So, in about ten months

[Danielle]

Also! Thank you folks, who responded. It certainly makes sense that hints spoil some of the self-discovery in a game that is all about self-discovery.

 

I think a lot of my frustration comes from being aggravated at myself. "Why aren't I better at this!" is something I continually bump up against in this game. It's good for me, when I can detach a little, take a deep breath, and be proud of my (very slow) progress.

 

It's just funny to me (and also frustrating) that this game is more intellectually difficult for me than anything else I'm doing - at my job, at my teaching job, in my athletic training or in my medical training. All the intellectual exercise of those pursuits is like a warmup compared to the actual marathon that is The Witness. Something about that doesn't sit right! I'm not even rationally certain why that is...

[Hermie]

Also! Thank you folks, who responded. It certainly makes sense that hints spoil some of the self-discovery in a game that is all about self-discovery.

 

I think a lot of my frustration comes from being aggravated at myself. "Why aren't I better at this!" is something I continually bump up against in this game. It's good for me, when I can detach a little, take a deep breath, and be proud of my (very slow) progress.

 

It's just funny to me (and also frustrating) that this game is more intellectually difficult for me than anything else I'm doing - at my job, at my teaching job, in my athletic training or in my medical training. All the intellectual exercise of those pursuits is like a warmup compared to the actual marathon that is The Witness. Something about that doesn't sit right! I'm not even rationally certain why that is...

 

I don't you should think like that at all! Those all require different ways of using your brain than The Witness. In fact, the only thing "warming up" your brain for The Witness is other puzzles in The Witness.

 

You've mentioned on Twitter that you have fun making games, but that art/asset creation is taxing for you. But it's not like you will get better at the art part of game making by doing more game design and coding, even though they're related.

 

It kinda sounds like you're thinking in the outdated form of having one "IQ" that tells you that your brain is smart at exactly this level, no matter the task. It's okay to be better at some things than others.

[Reyturner]

Maybe the frustration is coming from some vestigial evolutionary trait. Like when you're playing The Witness, the amount of energy being used to solve line puzzles in a video game is making your internal task manager look like that one Dril tweet: 

 

 

Also, now that I'm inside the mountain, I have a lot more sympathy for the criticism of the puzzles where the primary problem solving you're doing is figuring out where to stand. 

 

How long does the Portal test chamber section last? The environs are so boring that I don't even want to be in there solving annoying positioning puzzles

[Dr Wookie]

It's just funny to me (and also frustrating) that this game is more intellectually difficult for me than anything else I'm doing - at my job, at my teaching job, in my athletic training or in my medical training. All the intellectual exercise of those pursuits is like a warmup compared to the actual marathon that is The Witness. Something about that doesn't sit right! I'm not even rationally certain why that is...

My long-standing but very niche research career is no longer viable (thanks to the next big billion dollar project being delayed by at least 15 years), so I have been retraining myself to work in a more real-world environment. I have over 25,000 hours of data analysis experience, but hardly any experience with the more advanced commercial software. I have been taking online courses, but several times came to a problem which had me stuck for a few hours because I simply didn't know the name of the command that must definitely exist. So to me, learning the puzzles is similar to that, learning completely new skills rather than doing things that have made sense for a long time.

Also, didn't it take Jonathan Blow years to come up with the puzzles? Therefore it took years for him to solve them

[brkl]

Eleven lasers is the maximum before heading inside the mountain, right?

[Nappi]

Yes.

[prawks]

I've just spent the last 2 hour trying to get into this cocking room

Aghagahahghghaghagahhahagahha. I know what to do and have got very close a couple times. I think I might give it rest for a few weeks a play some other stuff. Feel like I've wasted my Sunday afternoon now

 

"Aghagahahghghaghagahhahagahha" very accurately describes the feeling I'm getting trying to solve The Challenge:

 

I've spent a couple multiple-hour chunks of time working through this, with multi-day rests in between. Made it to the last pillar twice, once last night with definitely enough time and cocked it up. The pillar puzzles are just so brutal to figure out on a time crunch. I haven't figured out a good way to work through the black/white pillar puzzles without a truckload of trial, error, and random guessing. Wish there were more of them to practice on, it's just going to be very time consuming having to sprint through this timed section enough to develop a decent method of solving them semi-reliably, then hope for lucky puzzles..

 

Some cool aha moments though, like that the table puzzle relates to the maze. Figuring out the triangle puzzles to get here was fun, surprised I never figured out the mechanic on all of the random ones lying around until I sat down and looked at a bunch of them in sequence.

 

I still have one nagging puzzle out in the world though, no matter how many times I look at it I just can't see it:

 

By the monastery, there's a door that when open is a shortcut to the bamboo jungle. I've gotten the one near it that leads to one of the hexagon video solutions by finding the right tree to look through, but I can't for the life of me find anything near the "shortcut door" that matches even remotely up to the puzzle. Anyone have a hint? Will probably completely give it away, but it's bugging me.

[iax]

Hint for the second spoiler:

Maybe you want to look for a combination of things instead just one (hopefully I'm not mixing it up with some other puzzle).

[elmuerte]

Just finished it with 500/40. I don't think I'm going back to solve the other puzzles, including that horrible timed set of random puzzles.

Solving puzzles became a chore at some time. More of the same stuff which I know how to solve, just have to figure out how to position it all.

My favorite puzzles were the environment based puzzles, like the mazes in the castle.

 

 

By the monastery, there's a door that when open is a shortcut to the bamboo jungle. I've gotten the one near it that leads to one of the hexagon video solutions by finding the right tree to look through, but I can't for the life of me find anything near the "shortcut door" that matches even remotely up to the puzzle. Anyone have a hint? Will probably completely give it away, but it's bugging me.

 

That one took me a while.

step back and look at the edges of the rocks before you reach the door

[prawks]

hat one took me a while.

step back and look at the edges of the rocks before you reach the door

 

Duh. Always surprised by some of the things I miss.

 

Think I may pass on the Challenge, I have other games I need to move on to. May come back and do some more +'s here and there though.

 

I finally went through the credits sequence too, think it's one of my favorites in recent memory:

 

The GoPro footage was... unique for sure. Enjoyed that perspective on the game, but man. Some hilarious moments, like who throws a half-eaten cookie onto the counter like that? Blow definitely plays the kitchenware-drums like a pro, though. I was expecting him to keep going with more complex rhythms but he wanted to go showoff his cool outdoor zen grotto instead.

 

It's funny, I never had the Tetris effect from this game or saw +1 puzzles in the real world at all, but when he went outside in that video I definitely expected him to acknowledge the obvious puzzles all over the place out there. Pretty hilarious that it took that framing, but now I see them all over the place. My goddamned basement doing laundry, driving around town. I think all in all The Witness finally stared back at me.

 

Also, the fucking pee bottle. Unreal.

[Reyturner]

I woke up in the middle of the night and the solution to a puzzle came to me.

Like my subconscious had been chewing on it, figured it out and got so excited that it woke me up to tell me.

[pyeixe]

God, I had such a grin on my face when I realised what was going on with the challenge. Not finished yet, but boy there is something about it that really made me happy. I had goosebumps.

I have a question about the triangle puzzles that are lying around the map, do they build to something? I have 'solved' them but they had no discernible effect on the world.

I woke up in the middle of the night and the solution to a puzzle came to me.

Like my subconscious had been chewing on it, figured it out and got so excited that it woke me up to tell me.

This sounds like a good feeling.

[brkl]

Man. I solved everything I could find and reached the endgame. But I'm only at 438 and I have a bunch of questions left. I don't know how much energy I have left, but I still feel like I wouldn't want the game spoiled. Such a rare feeling. I still haven't even seen the credits.

 

EDIT:

Okay, I've seen the credits. That was sweet. Also a bit dumb towards the end. I also found more game, so I'm not done yet. These were the first hints I looked up. This is my game of the decade.

[melmer]

Regarding the credits

i thought I'd never figure out where they are and looked up the location on YouTube. But going back to the first area I can't actually turn the power lines off/ shut the gate.

Can you only view them at the start of a new game? Now that I say that it kinda makes sense, with the game restarting upon completion. That puzzle would be super obvious with your gained knowledge

[Nappi]

Yes, I think hiding it in plain sight was a cool idea.

 

There is another way, though.

There is an alternative solution to the gate puzzle on paper somewhere in the underground area. I don't remember where exactly. Possibly beyond the record player area.

[osmosisch]

Regarding the credits

i thought I'd never figure out where they are and looked up the location on YouTube. But going back to the first area I can't actually turn the power lines off/ shut the gate.

Can you only view them at the start of a new game? Now that I say that it kinda makes sense, with the game restarting upon completion. That puzzle would be super obvious with your gained knowledge

Oh man, I felt such an amazing holy shit response when I (credits spoilers)

watched a friend play through the beginning and thought "surely not...." and then tried it on my own in a new game and it totally worked.

[brkl]

I guess I have the challenge and one other puzzle left. Seems pretty tough, though.

I was really surprised by how many different places I hadn't seen yet.