Life

[Griddlelol]

Polyamory is essentially cheating with consent, at least that's how I interpret it. Although it's more about having relationships, rather than just sex as cheating implies. I've always had relationships that overlap, until now, because I find it difficult to spend all my time with one person. 

I guess my issue is that I couldn't accept someone doing that to me, but think it's perfectly find to do myself.

[dibs]

I know Gwardinen, i know:/

 

 

Griddlelol, I'm a little worried about your interpretation there, but i'm going to sit this one out.

[Apple Cider]

All I ask from anyone, ever, is that they respect my boundaries. If you can't do that, there's no way I can trust you in a friendship, much less a sexual relationship. 

 

I also think that absence of absolute negation to openness to poly things

 

So wait, does this mean "absence of no means yes" because as far as I am concerned "friends only" is a no, but I am also incredibly squicked out by the idea of "well you didn't say you're against it specifically anywhere so..." vs. "Oh, you said specifically you ARE open to it!" 

 

C'mon.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Well if you examine why cheating is wrong it's because it seems like it's a breach of trust that the other person is uncomfortable with.

So you could say that polyamory is the same act but given consent, so that there is no breach of trust. That obviously means polyamory requires very explicit consent and boundaries drawn but does not necessarily need to apply to all parties. You can have one sided polyamory if it feels a comfortable situation.

I think it's worth asking why it makes you uncomfortable though Griddlelol. You may not know yourself but reasons can vary between all sorts of sources. And if you're comfortable with partaking but not allowing, maybe there's some problematic reason like sexism, insecurity or jealousy. It doesn't seem fair to ask for something your partner doesn't get without fully committing to it yourself.

Though I'm aware you're not asking for it, at least it seems as if you're remaining monogamous. This probably reads as a criticism of you now, but really I'm just trying to prompt some deeper thought about your motivation.

[Ben X]

Polyamory is essentially cheating with consent, at least that's how I interpret it. Although it's more about having relationships, rather than just sex as cheating implies. I've always had relationships that overlap, until now, because I find it difficult to spend all my time with one person. 

I guess my issue is that I couldn't accept someone doing that to me, but think it's perfectly find to do myself.

 

Yeah, it sounded like you were considering doing it without her consent ("breaking her trust").

 

Another option, of course, is to break up with her and find a partner who is happy for you to be in another relationship simultaneously whilst not needing one herself...

[Griddlelol]

No, I'm certainly not. Breaking trust in a relationship is basically the death of it. I'm happy, it just feels odd to me to not to be interested in any one else, as I am usually. I'm just too hung up on what society expects to ever actually be poly.

[MrHoatzin]

All I ask from anyone, ever, is that they respect my boundaries. If you can't do that, there's no way I can trust you in a friendship, much less a sexual relationship.

So wait, does this mean "absence of no means yes" because as far as I am concerned "friends only" is a no, but I am also incredibly squicked out by the idea of "well you didn't say you're against it specifically anywhere so..." vs. "Oh, you said specifically you ARE open to it!"

C'mon.

Absence of no doesn't mean yes, it means UNKNOWN. Your little strawman there makes it sound like I'm advocating rape. People have all kinds of nuanced personal reasons for filling out dating site bureaucracy in a specific way, and in my experience I can only make educated guesses as to why.

Say we hit it off online, and we go on a platonic friend date and we seem to hit it off real well irl and I like you. A) At some point you mention your bad experience with pushy jerks who don't listen and just wanna fuck you. You keep giggling and smiling at my stupid jokes, your pupils dilate and you look away coyly whenever our eyes meet.

If A, I will probably not be pushy or ask at all. If B, I will definitely describe what dating me would look like (if it hasn't been established, that I am poly, can't do an exclusive soul-melding gig, but that I'm not into random hookups etc), and ask how binding your FRIENDS ONLY blurb is. If A+B I will just wait and see if you're a flirty person in general or if there is something more to B instead of being a pushy jerk.

Why perceive clarifying boundaries to begin with to be an affront to your sovereignty?

[MrHoatzin]

So you could say that polyamory is the same act but given consent, so that there is no breach of trust. That obviously means polyamory requires very explicit consent and boundaries drawn but does not necessarily need to apply to all parties. You can have one sided polyamory if it feels a comfortable situation.

 

We (me+Sal Limones on these here forums before she deleted her account on account of much too much time spent arguing the feminism thread) have tried to have explicit boundaries about what is and isn't permitted (homo only, no falling in love, no pet names, etc), but we found out that we were constantly renegotiating and breaking them in arguably edge ways. Instead, we settled on a system of talking through what is going on in our extracurricular relationships, with the other having a power of veto over things.

[Bjorn]

Absence of no doesn't mean yes, it means UNKNOWN. Your little strawman there makes it sound like I'm advocating rape. People have all kinds of nuanced personal reasons for filling out dating site bureaucracy in a specific way, and in my experience I can only make educated guesses as to why.

Say we hit it off online, and we go on a platonic friend date and we seem to hit it off real well irl and I like you. A) At some point you mention your bad experience with pushy jerks who don't listen and just wanna fuck you. You keep giggling and smiling at my stupid jokes, your pupils dilate and you look away coyly whenever our eyes meet.

If A, I will probably not be pushy or ask at all. If B, I will definitely describe what dating me would look like (if it hasn't been established, that I am poly, can't do an exclusive soul-melding gig, but that I'm not into random hookups etc), and ask how binding your FRIENDS ONLY blurb is. If A+B I will just wait and see if you're a flirty person in general or if there is something more to B instead of being a pushy jerk.

Why perceive clarifying boundaries to begin with to be an affront to your sovereignty?

 

I feel like you're arguing from an idealist perspective of polyamory, which, idealism is great. But it doesn't take into account the realities of dating, and particularly the realities of dating online for women. And you're really talking about something that's considerably different, which is contacting someone who says "friends only" with the legitimate interest of just getting to know that person versus a couple contacting that person because they are only looking for a sexually active third to add to their relationship. That's not the same thing, at all.

[MrHoatzin]

All I am saying is having INTERESTED IN FRIENDS checked on OKC without any kind of explicit explanation and total absence of anything related to poly anything (i.e. assuming monogamy to be a set-in-stone default unless otherwise stated, burden of responsibility being on the wide world to make correct assumptions) and then being outraged that people would dare ask is dumb—aside from how dumb it is to just filter for bi girls and spam them artlessly.

[Twig]

I don't think it's dumb. "Interested in friends" is pretty explicitly "not interested in sex or romantic relationships" on OKCupid.

[Mawd]

My partner and I have talked about sleeping with other men. But we trust each other that it'd only happen given mutual consent and attraction.

We do have an unwritten list of people we'd bed together and we're quite comfortable with it. We know enough about each other to know there's no one else we'd rather love.

 

edit: stumbled into the wrong conversation.

[MrHoatzin]

I don't think it's dumb. "Interested in friends" is pretty explicitly "not interested in sex or romantic relationships" on OKCupid.

 

Sorta but not really. Interested in friends does not appear in search results for other things, but is still stealth present, hanging out, congenial—shielding one somewhat from being propositioned by randos, while allowing one the leeway to make the first move. For example.

[Thrik]

I don't think it's dumb. "Interested in friends" is pretty explicitly "not interested in sex or romantic relationships" on OKCupid.

I don't want to get into the poly side of this discussion, but that isn't necessarily true. I've had a number of successful (and unsuccessful) dates with women who were very much up for honest-to-god dating despite them listing themselves as 'looking for friends' only.

This is just the reality of how it goes. Not every person means the same thing when they set their various options on a dating site, and that's assuming their current settings have been updated to match their state of mind and mood. Then of course, let's not forget that even when one is in a decidedly 'not interested in anything serious' kind of state, the right person can come along and blow you away.

If you're on a dating site then many people will assume that you're on some level open to the remote possibility of dating and/or sex, whatever your settings. Also, men at least typically have to send a lot of messages out into the abyss to get responses, so skipping people who look and sound awesome because of a setting that is only sometimes a reflection of someone's true availability is unwise.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Looking for friends is not always that you only want friends, sure. But it is 100% a signal to say that you don't want other people making moves on you. Polyamory had a bad rap among mainstream but that is distinct from sexual aggressiveness/sexual imposition. You can't assume your feelings onto others, you have to take their word for what they want and be as accepting as you can. Otherwise you're just pushing your feelings onto them.

Suddenly my own point makes me feel the need to explain that this is my take and I'm not trying to actually speak for Apple Cider or anyone else.

[Apple Cider]

I think this conversation says a lot more about societal mores about assuming things about other people and not really caring, in the end, if you feel that your desire to reach out to them is paramount. Which is a whole other conversation in and of itself, but it's why dating or meeting sites in general are really annoying because no matter what, you end up dealing with tons of creepy randoms. Like, maybe the "only friends" setting would be meaningful if you had any real means to not get creepy people in your PM box. This is not the fault of people who use the friends setting "poorly" but rather the people who will do whatever they want anyways?

[Deadpan]

I am polyamorous, so I guess I might as well weigh in on all this jazz, and feel free to riddle me with questions if this isn't clear. Which it probably isn't.

 

I am kinda bummed POLY is even a THING, like the formulation of "I AM POLY" implies that it reflects a kind of inner material truth about me versus others which is not justified. All I am doing is allowing myself to fall for other people and negotiating all of my relationships with an extended latitude. This is not something that muggles cannot do, it is just that everyone is trained by literary tradition, telenovelas, taboos, etc that non-monogamous non-heteronormative behavior results in jealousy and crazy mad drama antics and that this is why it is an abnormal way to be.

 

I have no doubt that the chokehold monogamy has on relationships is inspired by a whole lot of cultural baggage, but I'm not a fan of the line of thinking that suggests the desire to be happy ever after with just one partner is entirely the result of those weird expectations and norms. Even if it all were to go away and we'd all manage to, as so many people are fond of suggesting, just chiiiiiilll about relationships, I imagine people would continue to form those bonds and there's nothing wrong with that. Of course, it'd be great if we could work to undo all the damage wrought by hundreds of years of romantic fiction (etc.) telling us how wrong this is and using jealousy as their magic bullet for creating drama, but I don't appreciate that people overshoot in the other direction by suggesting that this is the more natural, better way to be.

 

Besides, you can't be post-monogamy in a world that isn't, for the same reason that you can't be post-gender in a world that isn't.

 

I want to stumble upon someone who strikes my fancy and feel free to inquire about connecting with them, either on a purely sexual or a more emotional level or anywhere in between. Feelings are fun and complicated.

 
There is so much drama and freaking out about tone and manners and insult and trauma in the way relationships are managed or mismanaged, conceived or misconceived, and explained or not explained to young people. Everyone needs to chill out about perceived transgressions and impropriety and boundaries and just talk things through. Sex is a big deal and not a big deal.

 

The problem with that is that even to approach them can break their boundaries. This is an area where the different expectations coming with different relationship models can wreak havoc, and that's not something they need to get over, that's something I need to keep at bay. For instance, just because it's no big deal to me to tell somebody that I love them (because I fall in love easily and want to love indiscriminately without any real expectations attached) doesn't mean that for them it's not a big deal and that they won't be freaked out by a confession like that, if they have a different understanding of what love means. And they're not wrong! My understanding is no better than theirs, just different.

 

This isn't hysterical. You gripe about perceived transgressions, but the reality of these differences is that just by telling people something seemingly innocuous you can be massively overstepping boundaries, if you've not previously communicated about what their expectations and wishes are. This is something I've struggled with for a while, because I had to learn and accept that it can actually be selfish to love so selflessly, because it can put a lot of unexpected pressure on another person to somehow respond to these feelings I have.

 

Polyamory is essentially cheating with consent, at least that's how I interpret it. Although it's more about having relationships, rather than just sex as cheating implies. I've always had relationships that overlap, until now, because I find it difficult to spend all my time with one person. 

I guess my issue is that I couldn't accept someone doing that to me, but think it's perfectly find to do myself.

 

Many different forms of it, but for me definitely it's more a matter of having several serious relationships at the same time rather than having no serious relationships and just sleeping around. Which is also fine. What you mean, a constellation of one primary partner and other casual relationships definitely also exists.

 

 

This is not the fault of people who use the friends setting "poorly" but rather the people who will do whatever they want anyways?

 

One-hundred percent.

 

No matter how frustrated you get out in the dating world, important to never get uppity at people for using whatever means available to minimize the avalanche of creeps.

[Bjorn]

Suddenly my own point makes me feel the need to explain that this is my take and I'm not trying to actually speak for Apple Cider or anyone else.

 

Yeah, I certainly don't want to come off as speaking for anyone other than myself.

 

Many different forms of it, but for me definitely it's more a matter of having several serious relationships at the same time rather than having no serious relationships and just sleeping around. Which is also fine.

 

I've never seen that, and I love that diagram so much, in part because of how ridiculously complex it is.

I'm kind of surprised, and pleased, at the several people in here who have identified as poly or open to it. I've been really hesitant about getting too deep into my personal life, but I'll at least say that we are not monogamous (though that's a recent change of about 3 years ago). But neither of us uses any traditional dating sites or apps for what we do, hence my lack of knowledge about any of the singles stuff. Our attitude has been that those are *mostly* sites for singles and not for us.  And there are in fact a lot of places both online and offline for us to meet other people where social expectations around monogamy aren't as strict. That's kind of why I particularly find the couples looking for thirds on dating sites weird, like, there are actually places that are way, way, way more open to that. I feel like those people are either new and uneducated, or they want to find people who aren't already involved in these lifestyles but might be open to them.  Which is...eh, there are potential problems there either way.  I'm not entirely sure how to explain why that sets off a little alarm bell in the back of my brain. 

 

No matter how frustrated you get out in the dating world, important to never get uppity at people for using whatever means available to minimize the avalanche of creeps.

 

Yeah, I think you have to accept that the filters that everyone chooses to use are for the best, even if they don't feel that way to you.  If someone's criteria filters you out, then that's probably not someone you actually wanted to spend your time pursuing. 

[Ozzie]

Ozzie - how was the sex? Many details, please.

 

It was astoundingly good. I still can't believe I went through with it. XD

WARNING: Too much information incoming!

He contacted me through a dating site. After two messages I already knew that I liked him. He gave off good vibes and made me feel comfortable.

For a long time I carried the thought around that my first time unavoidably would be a catastrophe. I saw it as something I had to get through without becoming traumatized. Since August I hoped to get a sex date with someone I felt comfortable with enough to get through with it. Took long enough. XD I think I looked for someone who described sex as fun. It's surprising how rarely that happens! He did that, in a way that made me grin. Practicality necessitated that we had sex on the backseat of his car. Well, I didn't complain. It was night, after all.

There was some slight awkwardness at the beginning - how to touch, where to touch, how fast to move - but it was incredibly easy for me to relax with him. And to say it with the words of Sufjan Stevens: "Boy, we made such a mess together". I had a bit of a problem to cum. I was worried beforehand that I might cum too quickly and that I would be embarrassed by it. Therefore I jerked off right before we met. In hindsight this was more a hindrance than a necessity.

Also I almost entirely lacked any orgasmic pleasure, maybe because I jerked off cautiously beforehand, or because my mere routine jerking off to pornography may have dulled my sexual senses over the years. Though, when I first started chasing after a sexual date on the dating site the prospect of getting the real thing excited my body so much that I felt something down there like I hadn't in years. So, I hope that sense will come back.

Otherwise, everything worked out just fine, with a nudge or two from him. Couldn't have wished for a better first time. I feel like I've handled this well. ^^

I hope these were enough too much information for ya.

[MrHoatzin]

I don't disagree with anything you've said, Deadpan. There is a lot of nuance in how relationships work. My bottom line is that things in relationships need to be talked through and not taken for granted.

[Deadpan]

It was astoundingly good. I still can't believe I went through with it. XD

 

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said, Deadpan. There is a lot of nuance in how relationships work. My bottom line is that things in relationships need to be talked through and not taken for granted.

 

That's fair, I just think you need to approach those conversations respectfully. There's a point where interrogating people about how they do relationships crosses a line.

 

EDIT:

 

That's kind of why I particularly find the couples looking for thirds on dating sites weird, like, there are actually places that are way, way, way more open to that. I feel like those people are either new and uneducated, or they want to find people who aren't already involved in these lifestyles but might be open to them.  Which is...eh, there are potential problems there either way.  I'm not entirely sure how to explain why that sets off a little alarm bell in the back of my brain. 

 

It's definitely a bit weird because the structure of these sites is about what you want and in situations like yours it's really more a question of what do we want. These sites really are more of a single free-for-all, and I definitely also get a bit wary around people who use them uncritically or a unaware of their many problems. I suppose part of the problem may also be that the intent on there is usually to find somebody you've never met before and have a completely fresh start with them, whereas for couples or groups it may be easier to expand the relationship with somebody you are all already acquainted with, friends with, etc.

 

On the flipside though, the established poly circles, kink circles, etc. that people who don't need to rely on sites or apps move in can be a bit cliquish and weird.

[Bjorn]

On the flipside though, the established poly circles, kink circles, etc. that people who don't need to rely on sites or apps move in can be a bit cliquish and weird.

 

Good lord yes, I won't deny that.  That's one of the bigger challenges, but I still feel like looking for established groups, events or sites that cater to what you are specifically looking for are better than going with mainstream dating sites.  Or just meeting people naturally in the ways that you move through life.  Outside of our families, pretty much every one we know knows about our current relationship structure.  Which is convenient, as we don't like approaching vanilla folks.  We don't ever want to weird anyone out.  But by just living openly, occasionally it will spark a conversation we're happy to have with people.  But we also recognize that's something we're really privileged about.  We're self employed, so we don't have professional concerns.  Our kid is an adult, so there's no potential custody issues due to our extra-curricular activities (which is a thing we know people have gone through when raising younger kids).  Even if our families found out, ultimately I don't think it would cause us much grief.  We just leave them in the dark because we're sure they're more comfortable not knowing.  But there are a lot of other people who would be putting significant portions of their lives at risk to live openly like we do.  So I sympathize with those who can't. 

[SuperBiasedMan]

This is a very new thought so I may be out of line but I think that even if you have an unprivileged sexuality that doesn't mean you should be entitled to push for people to take your viewpoint. Certainly challenge people being stubborn or close minded, but you can't demand that they try your particular experiences if they really don't want to. It's entirely possible to not want a polyamarous situation for valid reasons, not just because of monogamy normative society.

[Deadpan]

The approach of letting those relationships happen with people you happen to meet in life is probably the nicest in a lot of ways, but I feel like that one is also kind of hard to get off the ground. At least, as you say, that's much easier to do if you're already comfortable with and certain about what you want, if you have an established, fulfilling relationship that leaves you open to experiment with what else there is. I know that when I came to terms with all this, I wasn't entirely sure about a lot of things and felt like testing if this was really my jam before telling other people in my life.

 

At that point, general dating sites felt the most inviting to me because it seemed the least likely that I would be, well, noob-shamed there. That probably explains the general trend and your perception that people who are approaching others about it there are kind of inexperienced themselves, although you also meet quite lovely people that way, in my experience.

 

Usually it's the folk who mention feminism in their profiles. Weird coincidence!

[Bjorn]

The approach of letting those relationships happen with people you happen to meet in life is probably the nicest in a lot of ways, but I feel like that one is also kind of hard to get off the ground. At least, as you say, that's much easier to do if you're already comfortable with and certain about what you want, if you have an established, fulfilling relationship that leaves you open to experiment with what else there is. I know that when I came to terms with all this, I wasn't entirely sure about a lot of things and felt like testing if this was really my jam before telling other people in my life.

Oh yeah, definitely. Like I said, we're about 3 years into this, and we were a lot more quiet about it for the first year. Then after that we both acknowledged that we really couldn't imagine going back to pure monogamy, we started being open about it. And we're still learning, I certainly don't want to come off as speaking from a place of deep expertise. And once you cross over into non-monogamy, everyone's rules, experiences and expectations are very much unique to them.

And I don't want to say that non-monogamists shouldn't be able to use traditional dating sites. It's just something that takes even more care and thought than when you're single. And particularly on the subject of couples *exclusively* looking for female thirds, I'm somewhat skeptical that there isn't an underlying fear, jealousy or communication issue that needs to be addressed, particularly on the male side of the couple. And that's understandable to an extent, there's so much baggage around relationships and sex that hinges on male jealousy and control of female sexuality. Maybe that's unfair, but it's what I've observed moving around these circles and communities.