Chris

Idle Thumbs 13: Manipulated Through Time

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We're back for real, except for Nick who is sick for real. And by sick, I mean ill. And by ill, I mean totally rad. Also, he has contracted an ailment.

"We loudly ring in Year of the Video Game with a double episode of post-holiday potluck warmth. Like a worried mom, we lecture about driving under the influence of video games. Like a drunk uncle, we can't shut up about "ol' Spelunky." You know (wink), "the Tomb Raider?""

Games discussed: Prince of Persia (2008), Tomb Raider Underworld, Tomb Raider, Prince of Persia (1989), Nobi Nobi Boy, Osmos, Brainpipe, Spelunky, Bus Driver

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=293436552

http://feeds.feedburner.com/idle-thumbs

http://www.idlethumbs.net/

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Yes, then we created new ones, but I did a better job of masking them in post I hope.

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Good episode guys :tup:

For what it's worth I live in London and Cockfosters is still hilarious to me - whenever anyone come down to visit I always point it out to them. Except my Nan.

I love the idea of telling a story directly from the players actions. I remember this part in Monkey Island 2 where Guybrush had to escape from this trap that was slowly lowering him into a pit of acid. If you didn't do it time there was an animation of Guybrush screaming as he went into the acid and the game would cut forward to Guybrush explaining this to Elaine and she would just look at him incredulously and say something like "Yeah ... that didn't really happen did it?". I can't remember it exactly but it was pretty funny.

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For what it's worth I live in London and Cockfosters is still hilarious to me - whenever anyone come down to visit I always point it out to them. Except my Nan.

This was my first impression of London. Getting on the Tube at Heathrow for Cockfosters. I thought it was stupidly funny, but I was rather jetlagged so anything was probably funny to me, like St. John's Wood. :getmecoat

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Totally with you about the first Tomb Raider Chris, with the whole finding it pretty lame after playing PC games and whatnot. But I too have been tempted by the look and feel of the last couple of new ones.

Also I was one of those fans of Terminator: Future Shock and the follow-up, Skynet. With the post-apocalyptic open world setting they are pretty comparable to Fallout 3, now that I come to think of it. They did a great job of making you feel constantly hunted - if an eyebot found you then you knew a hunter-killer jet had been dispatched to you location already. Good stuff.

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I think this is relevant to the mute Gordon Freeman discussion.

:tup::tup: I absolutely love that series. People who like it should also check out his more "serious" machinima called "Civil Protection". I only wish he would release episodes more frequently.

Check out his blog here:http://civil-protection.blogspot.com/

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I don't know how obscure this game is to you guys, but I had a Mickey Mouse game for DOS when I was a little jerkwad called Follow the Reader.

It essentially did what the podcast was saying, which was to save every action the player did, and then at the end of Mickey's day you could print out everything you did, in storybook form.

Here's a screenshot:

293n0614.jpg

So you could go to the beach, wash dishes, watch TV, feed Pluto, go to Donald's and sodomize him etc.

But I remember there was this plant in the living room that would get all weepy and dreary if it didn't get watered like every 20 seconds. So I would continuously water this plant every time I walked by, feeling bad for it.

So whenever I got around to printing out my story at the end of Mickey's day, almost every other page would be a picture of a plant and some transition saying something like, "And then Mickey watered the plant."

So this was probably one of my stories:

"Mickey woke up and got dressed and ready for the day." (clothes hamper picture or something)

"Then Mickey walked downstairs."

"Mickey watered the plant." (plant picture)

"He then went outside to play with Pluto."

"Then Mickey watered the plant." (plant picture)

"Mickey decided to watch some TV." (TV picture)

"Mickey then watered the plant." (plant picture)

"After that, Mickey also watered the plant." (plant picture)

"Mickey called for some pizza and also called for Minnie to come over." (pizza or phone)

"Mickey then went to water the plant." (plant picture)

"He then brushed his teeth, and watered the plant." (toothbrush)

"Mickey went to sleep. The End" (bed picture)

It was such a waste of paper. I would love to make a novel with this game, and see how much crap I could do in one day until I have about 400 pages of repetitious insanity.

Edited by syntheticgerbil

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I don't know how obscure this game is to you guys, but I had a Mickey Mouse game for DOS when I was a little jerkwad called Follow the Reader.

It essentially did what the podcast was saying, which was to save every action the player did, and then at the end of Mickey's day you could print out everything you did, in storybook form.

Here's a screenshot:

293n0614.jpg

So you could go to the beach, wash dishes, watch TV, feed Pluto, go to Donald's and sodomize him etc.

But I remember there was this plant in the living room that would get all weepy and dreary if it didn't get watered like every 20 seconds. So I would continuously water this plant every time I walked by, feeling bad for it.

So whenever I got around to printing out my story at the end of Mickey's day, almost every other page would be a picture of a plant and some transition saying something like, "And then Mickey watered the plant."

So this was probably one of my stories:

"Mickey woke up and got dressed and ready for the day." (clothes hamper picture or something)

"Then Mickey walked downstairs."

"Mickey watered the plant." (plant picture)

"He then went outside to play with Pluto."

"Then Mickey watered the plant." (plant picture)

"Mickey decided to watch some TV." (TV picture)

"Mickey then watered the plant." (plant picture)

"After that, Mickey also watered the plant." (plant picture)

"Mickey called for some pizza and also called for Minnie to come over." (pizza or phone)

"Mickey then went to water the plant." (plant picture)

"He then brushed his teeth, and watered the plant." (toothbrush)

"Mickey went to sleep. The End" (bed picture)

It was such a waste of paper. I would love to make a novel with this game, and see how much crap I could do in one day until I have about 400 pages of repetitious insanity that Mickey crams into one day.

So, basically, Gordon Freeman is a sociopath, the Prince of Persia is an absent-minded moron, and Mickey Mouse has obsessive-compulsive disorder.

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So, basically, Gordon Freeman is a sociopath, the Prince of Persia is an absent-minded moron, and Mickey Mouse has obsessive-compulsive disorder.

And Solid Snake has social anxiety. That's why he always hides from people.

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You guys almost went for the "Nick has Pac-Man fever" joke, but unfortunately (or fortunately?) for all of us you never quite got there.

I had an experience similar to Remo's friend when it comes to never being able to adjust to mouse-look, to the point where I actually preferred playing PC shooters with my super deluxe flight-sim joystick, and continued to do so well into the 2000s. I'd use the main joystick for WASD movement, and the directional thumb-controller-thing for mouse-look. I got my ass kicked on a consistent basis, but I was stubborn to change. It was partially a kind of weird ideological thing with me (I insisted that a joystick is for games, and a mouse is for spreadsheets), partially to justify the cost of the joystick, and partially so I could play Jedi Knight with one hand while eating chips with the other. Anyway I still suck at mouse-look to this day.

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I wasn't hoping for Remo to deconstruct "Prince of Persia" into a long QTE. I definitely think his playing of Tomb Raider had coloured his opinion of the new PoP game. I will agree that a Tomb Raider game does better platforming than Prince of Persia, but they're completely different in design since this is an "open-world" action-platformer, while the former is primarily linear. Makes a big difference in my opinion. During my 20 hours playing through the game, I wouldn't want it any other way or it would be a very frustrating experience.

When I went into the game, I didn't look to compare it to the previous PoPs. It's a reboot, so it's not looking to make its design philosophy around platforming rooms and linear level design. This game is all about a more flexible and frustration-free experience. The non-linear design to the game world makes some very different challenges, so I'm perfectly fine with how the platforming in this game is all about moving to your next destination, rather than being a challenging section of gameplay like previous linear Prince of Persia games. It goes against previous design choices of making the game challenging, and rather focused on making the player continue playing the game and finish it rather than put it down.

It's almost misleading to say that the game is devoid of challenge. Some corrupted platforming sections are particularly challenging if you don't do a chain of movements on the 1st try or get sucked in by a ball of goo(!), so the reloading back to the last platform was genius or then I'd put down the game. The boss battles are no walk in the park either, as they rely on countering and was much more rewarding and fun than the previous PoPs. Trying to get every orb was a very big challenge, and allowed for that "look around everywhere, make a plan in your head, go perform that plan in motion" gameplay that a platforming veteran might be yearning for. And I now have all 1001 orbs :) Also, some of the achievements on the 360 are like "Die less than 100 times", so I'm very anxious to try a second playthrough.

might illuminate a little about the whole topic of making games challenging, and mentions this new game. Just to add to the discussion.

Maybe the more you spend time on the game, you might forgive the design choices, but I wouldn't want to force that. Don't mean this to be a review of the game itself, just a counter-point to Remo's comments about the game.

Excellent podcast, made me laugh a bunch of times, and you guys seem like my ideal choice for a GFW Radio replacement. I loved Minotaur China Shop, gotta show it to my friends :D

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I'm willing to go back to Prince of Persia and put a few more hours into it to see how it evolves. For now though I'm going to get through Tomb Raider so I don't get too fragmented.

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Having beaten PoP, if you're far enough along that you've beaten at least one of the 4 generals (or whatever you want to call them) completely, you've seen almost all the game has to offer. All that's left that's really that impressive is the black and white boss fight which, while admittedly cool, does make the game very frustrating by pulling the camera back too far to really see what you're doing and removing the colour cues that would let you know what to do from that distance. And I guess the really out of character "gotta leave room for a sequel" ending. Although credit to it for actually having an end. After that team's last big effort with Assassin's Creed, I didn't have my hopes up. I actually liked that game much more, but it didn't end so much as stop abruptly.

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Loved the podcast guys, I definitely prefer the longer ones, I'd like to see more of those if possible.

Also I played Operation Neptune, that game kicked ass, it's one of those games you played a long time ago and then forget what it's called. Anyone else ever have that happen?

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Hey, I just noticed you guys are ranked #9 in "Top Podcasts" in iTunes' "Games & Hobbies" section.

Better yet, you are the #1 podcast with an explicit.gif tag. :tup:

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Hey, I just noticed you guys are ranked #9 in "Top Podcasts" in iTunes' "Games & Hobbies" section.

Better yet, you are the #1 podcast with an explicit.gif tag. :tup:

woot

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I think this is relevant to the mute Gordon Freeman discussion.

I just registered to point out Freeman's Mind. Thanks for ruining what was to have been an epic first post. Everyone must watch this.

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I enjoyed hearing y'all's two cents on first-person games on consoles and how they're different from those on the PC. What follows are my two cents on how they're different. You're welcome.

One key difference between first-person games on PCs and consoles are the control schemes, how they map from intentions (move forward) to player actions (press W), and how the buttons, sticks, and etc. interact with player's body.

For example, keyboard control requires coordination of multiple fingers for diagonal motion (e.g. hold W and A), whereas analog controls have a more direct mapping of intention to action (the movement vector is the angle and direction of the stick from the centre). Speed is also different. In Thief, the player using a keyboard has to toggle between discrete sneaking and running modes: there are only two speeds. On the console, the player has direct, analog control of their character's speed: it's up to the player how fast or how slow to move. The keyboard also has a greater management cost: the player has to remember stuff like the keys to toggle modes, the mode she's in, and has to coordinate two or three simultaneous actions across two or three fingers.

I think in these two examples, dual analog controls are less abstract and more closely related to what the player is trying to achieve in the game world than are keyboard controls. This might be why some players find it easier to pick up and learn console games.

That said, analog sticks are controlled by thumbs—they're literally "all thumbs". With the mouse, motion comes from wrist and arm movements. With the mouse, gross movements are easier to make (arm) and fine ones too (wrist, slow movement). Thumbs aren't as capable as arms and wrists, and that makes the tradeoff between accuracy and speed harder to adapt during play.

The mouse is also not bound by an arbitrary magnitude as are analog sticks (which the player can only push so far). Instead, mouses are limited (at most) by the physical range of the player's arm (or the mouse wire): I can move it almost as far and as fast as I can. This means that, in theory, I can whip around much faster in Quake, and snipe more effectively in Team Fortress, with a mouse than with analog sticks.

But, in practice, I suck at Halo and Team Fortress.

Edit: Also, I bad at write coherent sentenceish.

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Hey, I just noticed you guys are ranked #9 in "Top Podcasts" in iTunes' "Games & Hobbies" section.

Better yet, you are the #1 podcast with an explicit.gif tag. :tup:

We were #6 for a while, but have dropped to #11. I was worried for a minute when I first saw that page that I would obsess over it, until I realized that I'd already forgotten about the page's existence until I saw this thread. Hooray!

Anyway, sweet to be in the top 15 or whatever today.

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Unlike Chris, I wouldn't say that either one is better, just different. You definitely get more precision with the mouse, but you get more sense of weight with a controller. I'm actually holding something in my hands. And pulling the 360's R trigger is much more satisfying than clicking my left mouse button (not that I would ever think of comparing the former to firing a real gun).

Also, Steve, I don't "pan the stick slowly" when I play a console shooter. I tap the stick quickly so my view jerks around the screen, until I start firing—then I use smaller, more precise movements. The only first-person game I have ever found myself "panning" around in was Mirror's Edge.

Not to mention that console shooters tend to be designed with slower movement speed (look at Bungie vs Valve and Epic). Halo's speed is a nice medium between the super-fast, twitch action of Unreal and the step-by-step pace of tactical shooters like SWAT 4 on PC.

All that said, I can't get enough of L4D on PC. I tried the demo on 360 first, but seeing the Valve logo on a TV screen freaked me out. So yeah, ultimately, I believe you should play a shooter on the platform for which it was designed. Halo's a console shooter. Half-Life's a PC shooter. Simple as that. Where that leaves multiplatform stuff like CoD4, I have no idea, though I feel pretty comfortable playing it on consoles.

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