Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

[SkullKid]

1 hour ago, MabaseSlums said:

While I'm not saying that I'm explicitly disappointed at the lack of screen time to Audrey's situation, I am left wondering about a few things. If she's trapped in some state, when did this blank-white, possibly ethereal, place let her have a baby that roams the "real" world? Where did Richard get his name from? Was BadCoop there long enough to name the child in this now-Cooper-centric way? The Horne family seems intimately familiar with his actions, too, which just points out even more to me (to me to me) that we have no idea where Audrey is. The family seems comfortable in their knowledge of it, though.

I think Audrey was in the alt-world the entire time we saw her, but when she screamed to Charlie to get her out of there,  she woke up in ACTUAL Twin Peaks somewhere. 

[pabosher]

12 minutes ago, SkullKid said:

I think Audrey was in the alt-world the entire time we saw her, but when she screamed to Charlie to get her out of there,  she woke up in ACTUAL Twin Peaks somewhere. 

Time to see if there’s Mrs Tremond in any of the roadhouse scenes... (not me tho, can I lazyweb that?)

[lethalenforcer]

8 minutes ago, SkullKid said:

I think Audrey was in the alt-world the entire time we saw her, but when she screamed to Charlie to get her out of there,  she woke up in ACTUAL Twin Peaks somewhere. 

 

I don't understand why Audrey would have the same name in alt-world while everyone else was different, though.

 

But I do like the idea of Roadhouse-related scenes being in the alt-world, somehow. This theory has holes in it (James, Freddie, Shelly, Red, were all spotted there, among others), but it'd potentially explain the other episode-capping scenes that featured characters we've never met discussing other characters we never met or barely knew.

 

After seeing the mash-up video that draws parallels between Jodi crawling on the Roadhouse floor and DougieCoop crawing for the electrical outlet, I wonder if there are more parallels with those scenes that I never noticed. Like the girl that kept scratching. And scratching. And scratching.

 

Fun interview with Johnny Jewel of Chromatics about his experience filming and recording music for The Return:

https://consequenceofsound.net/2017/09/the-world-spins-johnny-jewel-talks-twin-peaks-david-lynch-and-whats-next-for-chromatics/

[plasticflesh]

6 hours ago, lethalenforcer said:

, I wonder if there are more parallels with those scenes that I never noticed.

 

One thing I noticed is the police in episode one in south dakota descending on to the principal's house with the warrant resembles the woodsman assembling around the convenience store in episode 8.

 

So this tells me the woodsmen are a sort of police force for the black lodge. This implied the woodsmen need equivalents of warrants to perform their actions.

 

Then, the house Carrie lives in certainly is the house where principal man is head exploded in the back seat of the police car.

 

 

[The Great Went]

53 minutes ago, plasticflesh said:

 

So this tells me the woodsmen are a sort of police force for the black lodge. This implied the woodsmen need equivalents of warrants to perform their actions.

 

 

Love this idea! 

 

[plasticflesh]

32 minutes ago, The Great Went said:

 

Love this idea! 

 

 

PJG videos have mentioned the woodsmen being maintenance crew for the convenience store and associated areas so I'm riffing off of that. Ruff-ruff

[HARRISONCOOPER]

Regarding the scene of Coop speaking to the fireman from Part 1.. I'd be interested to know where you guys imagine it falls in the overall timeline? We see Cooper travel from the Black Lodge, to new york,  to the purple room, to vegas, to coma, to the mystery door etc. I'm inclined to think when he stuck the fork in the socket he visited the fireman in the white lodge, received his download and then woke up %100, essentially an agent of both lodges. Thoughts?

[Ford]

Here's a quick theory on the end of episodes 17-18. In episode 17 when Cooper's face superimposes against the screen it represents a split in time. We are allowed to see one of these splits play out with Cooper going back to the lodge with the purpose of fulfilling his plan to save Laura and find Judy (two birds-one stone). Going into the lodge he remembers the Fireman's clues (430, Richard and Linda, Two birds one stone). He eventually travels (as Cooper) the 430 miles to some rip in time. When he enters the rip in time, he and Diane split. This is evidenced by Diane seeing another image of herself and the fact that at the hotel Cooper says things could change. In the hotel, we no longer are seeing Cooper - it is Richard. Richard doesn't remember the things the Giant told him, this is why he is so baffled by the note left in the morning. He only has a vague memory of himself, and some conditioned objective to find "Laura Palmer". We see Richard's personality change in the hotel, because he is a different person. Eventually they wind up at Laura's house and the ending. What we don't see, is that "Richard", conditioned to find Judy, and having already found Laura, will continue to lose his identity as Cooper and end up being Mr. C who will go back into the lodge and become Mr. C. Mr. C who has a conditioned need to find Judy for some unknown reason, which is a remnant of Cooper's original plan.

[Mentalgongfu]

Posted with love: An interesting discussion on the controversial ending of The Return that includes some well thought-out criticism of the dropped storylines and the surprising turn in Part 18. I haven't gotten through it all yet, but it immediately resonates with some of the critiques expressed by many fans.

 

 

[purps]

This was in Mark Frost's likes on twitter...

 

[SkullKid]

12 hours ago, HARRISONCOOPER said:

Regarding the scene of Coop speaking to the fireman from Part 1.. I'd be interested to know where you guys imagine it falls in the overall timeline? We see Cooper travel from the Black Lodge, to new york,  to the purple room, to vegas, to coma, to the mystery door etc. I'm inclined to think when he stuck the fork in the socket he visited the fireman in the white lodge, received his download and then woke up %100, essentially an agent of both lodges. Thoughts?

I laid out my theory above, but basically I feel the opening scene with the Giant takes place in the moment where time stops and the Cooper face overlay happens. All of the Giant's clues deal with the events that directly follow that moment. 

[pyide]

24 minutes ago, purps said:

This was in Mark Frost's likes on twitter...

 

 

That is sort of what it felt like, the brunt of episode 18 not having much in relation to the previous parts and threads aside from the opening scene with the Fireman, which we don't even know when takes place in relation to the other events. Probably doesn't even matter when and where, seemed out of space and time when we first saw it, being so visually different from all previous Twin Peaks up to that point.

 

Even if there's not another full series that continues from there, it would be nice to get a follow up movie that goes deeper into and perhaps out of that nightmare alongside New Coop / Richard and Cassie / Laura. Although I have to imagine Lynch and Frost would be mostly content leaving Twin Peaks on that moment forever.

[lethalenforcer]

Hot damn, I forgot about that moment. Good catch.

[purps]

5 minutes ago, pyide said:

 

 

That is sort of what it felt like, the brunt of episode 18 not having much in relation to the previous parts and threads aside from the opening scene with the Fireman, which we don't even know when takes place in relation to the other events. Probably doesn't even matter when and where, seemed out of space and time when we first saw it, being so visually different from all previous Twin Peaks up to that point.

 

Even if there's not another full series that continues from there, it would be nice to get a follow up movie that goes deeper into and perhaps out of that nightmare alongside New Coop / Richard and Cassie / Laura. Although I have to imagine Lynch and Frost would be mostly content leaving Twin Peaks on that moment forever.

The ending feels specifically designed to work as both a cliffhanger in the case that they get to do more, and a ending if they don't. 

[Persistence of 3]

14 minutes ago, pyide said:

 

 

That is sort of what it felt like, the brunt of episode 18 not having much in relation to the previous parts and threads aside from the opening scene with the Fireman, which we don't even know when takes place in relation to the other events. Probably doesn't even matter when and where, seemed out of space and time when we first saw it, being so visually different from all previous Twin Peaks up to that point.

 

Even if there's not another full series that continues from there, it would be nice to get a follow up movie that goes deeper into and perhaps out of that nightmare alongside New Coop / Richard and Cassie / Laura. Although I have to imagine Lynch and Frost would be mostly content leaving Twin Peaks on that moment forever.

 

Both season 1 and 2 ended with a card that read 'TO BE CONTINUED'. Season 3 did not. Plus, the aforementioned absence of electrical sound over the final Lunch/Frost logo suggests to me that its done.

[lethalenforcer]

4 minutes ago, Persistence of 3 said:

 

Both season 1 and 2 ended with a card that read 'TO BE CONTINUED'. Season 3 did not. Plus, the aforementioned absence of electrical sound over the final Lunch/Frost logo suggests to me that its done.

 

The persistence of Frost's upcoming book being labeled as his "final take" on TP also leads me to believe it's over, but perhaps they just mean via his self-written book format. I'd absolutely love to see one more thing - whether it's a shortened season or movie. I just don't see it happening.

 

That being said, Lynch clearly loves that world so I wouldn't be surprised to see him want to jump back in again.

[Frohike]

1 hour ago, SkullKid said:

I laid out my theory above, but basically I feel the opening scene with the Giant takes place in the moment where time stops and the Cooper face overlay happens. All of the Giant's clues deal with the events that directly follow that moment. 

 

I had a simpler reading of that moment. The overlay happens when all of the Fireman's clues are about to come together and really can't until Cooper has this first epiphany that effectively unhinges him from the reality of the scene. He's present but also has a larger awareness, seemingly out of time, of what is occurring.  Are the Fireman's hints happening at precisely that point in time? I... don't see why not, but I'm not sure that piece of temporal continuity is particularly important in the context of the registers of time & reality that Cooper begins to understand at that moment.

[BonusWavePilot]

13 hours ago, Ford said:

Here's a quick theory on the end of episodes 17-18. In episode 17 when Cooper's face superimposes against the screen it represents a split in time. We are allowed to see one of these splits play out with Cooper going back to the lodge with the purpose of fulfilling his plan to save Laura and find Judy (two birds-one stone). Going into the lodge he remembers the Fireman's clues (430, Richard and Linda, Two birds one stone). He eventually travels (as Cooper) the 430 miles to some rip in time. When he enters the rip in time, he and Diane split. This is evidenced by Diane seeing another image of herself and the fact that at the hotel Cooper says things could change. In the hotel, we no longer are seeing Cooper - it is Richard. Richard doesn't remember the things the Giant told him, this is why he is so baffled by the note left in the morning. He only has a vague memory of himself, and some conditioned objective to find "Laura Palmer". We see Richard's personality change in the hotel, because he is a different person. Eventually they wind up at Laura's house and the ending. What we don't see, is that "Richard", conditioned to find Judy, and having already found Laura, will continue to lose his identity as Cooper and end up being Mr. C who will go back into the lodge and become Mr. C. Mr. C who has a conditioned need to find Judy for some unknown reason, which is a remnant of Cooper's original plan.

 

Hmmm, I like this theory except for the Mr C stuff...  I think Coop is acting differently from the moment he emerges from the lodge: it is most obvious after he and Diane 'pass through', but even his interaction with her immediately upon emerging is quite un-Coop-like.  The kiss before they cross for example already seems strange and uncomfortable... 

That said, it is definitely the sex scene with Diane that most drives it home - Coop's blank face and near-immobile participation are a hell of a counterpoint to Dougie and Janey-e's scene with Dougie's equally passive, but considerably more joyful interaction.  Actually, in a way, the scene with Diane is what I was afraid the scene with Janey was going to be (sans the silly floppy arms) until the camera showed Dougie's face.

[ThatThomas]

9 hours ago, Persistence of 3 said:

 

Both season 1 and 2 ended with a card that read 'TO BE CONTINUED'. Season 3 did not. Plus, the aforementioned absence of electrical sound over the final Lunch/Frost logo suggests to me that its done.

 

You're saying at the time? Because the bluray versions don't end with TO BE CONTINUED as far as I can tell?

[mikemariano]

47 minutes ago, ThatThomas said:

 

You're saying at the time? Because the bluray versions don't end with TO BE CONTINUED as far as I can tell?

 

Whoa.

 

[Nordelnob]

21 hours ago, Ford said:

Here's a quick theory on the end of episodes 17-18. In episode 17 when Cooper's face superimposes against the screen it represents a split in time. We are allowed to see one of these splits play out with Cooper going back to the lodge with the purpose of fulfilling his plan to save Laura and find Judy (two birds-one stone). Going into the lodge he remembers the Fireman's clues (430, Richard and Linda, Two birds one stone). He eventually travels (as Cooper) the 430 miles to some rip in time. When he enters the rip in time, he and Diane split. This is evidenced by Diane seeing another image of herself and the fact that at the hotel Cooper says things could change. In the hotel, we no longer are seeing Cooper - it is Richard. Richard doesn't remember the things the Giant told him, this is why he is so baffled by the note left in the morning. He only has a vague memory of himself, and some conditioned objective to find "Laura Palmer". We see Richard's personality change in the hotel, because he is a different person. Eventually they wind up at Laura's house and the ending. What we don't see, is that "Richard", conditioned to find Judy, and having already found Laura, will continue to lose his identity as Cooper and end up being Mr. C who will go back into the lodge and become Mr. C. Mr. C who has a conditioned need to find Judy for some unknown reason, which is a remnant of Cooper's original plan.

Oh god damn it. I kind of love this.

I always thought the dopples were just some inherent shadow form that everyone has though. I guess that could be wrong though.

[Nordelnob]

12 hours ago, anoldtoilet said:

Here's a neat scene where Mrs. Tremond appears to Donna and Coop as someone completely different, as in episode 18, and then hands them the missing page from Laura's diary.

Yeah, I was also reminded of this scene in the ending of 18. Watching it now, it feels REALLY similar. 

[SkullKid]

That Donna clip also does a good job of showing that Cooper wasn't always chipper and quirky. He was sometimes grave, serious, like the one we see in Odessa in part 18. 

[MechE]

Of all the theories around the ending I've read, this one seems be the most compelling. It's not without it's flaws but pretty consistent with the finer details of episode 18 and provides a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the TP story.

 

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

[Gamebeast23456]

I really don't emotionally like the idea that Cooper isn't directly Cooper. I feel like it would be Lynch utterly wasting our time if the finale was about anyone other than the spirits of Cooper, Diane, and Laura. I think Richard is Cooper, Linda is Diane, etc. I think it is important that Lynch is retelling Cooper's hero's journey one last time, and obliterating, without a shadow of a doubt, the idea of his brand of heroism. It just doesn't work in the world of Twin Peaks. We love Dale, we want him to finally succeed, but it seems vitally important for us to understand that he just can't. How could you defeat the profiteers of pain and suffering? 

 

That's what I adore in the final scene of episode 18. The final realization for Dale Cooper's soul of what he's done, of what his singleminded pursuit of justice or 'goodness' has cost him. It feels like a very cathartic moment, even though it also hurts and is disorienting and scary. That moment of realization where Cooper's perfect posture just crumples  and all he can ask is "what year is it" is perfect to me, and only matters if this is Dale Cooper.  

 

David Lynch didn't go soft where it counts.