Fashion

[Twig]

This is not addressing anything specific, just the general idea that people should Dress Up for E3.

 

The problem with mocking those dudes is none of them looked repulsively offputting. They just looked like people talkin' 'bout video games. Which, for me, is much more welcoming than a dude in a full suit. I'll admit that sometimes a dude in a full suit is some nice eye candy and I can enjoy looking at him, but it's definitely far more alienating to me, the average joe, because I will never voluntarily wear a suit ever in all of my life ever.

[Bjorn]

This is not addressing anything specific, just the general idea that people should Dress Up for E3.

 

The problem with mocking those dudes is none of them looked repulsively offputting. They just looked like people talkin' 'bout video games. Which, for me, is much more welcoming than a dude in a full suit. I'll admit that sometimes a dude in a full suit is some nice eye candy and I can enjoy looking at him, but it's definitely far more alienating to me, the average joe, because I will never voluntarily wear a suit ever in all of my life ever.

 

I love wearing suits.  I actually wish I had more excuses to put on my professional wear (my favorite suit is one of my few outfits that I think genuinely makes me look gooooood, which is not a way I feel very often in terms of my looks/presentation).  I'm way more mentally comfortable in a suit than I am in a print t-shirt with a logo on it. 

[Twig]

I also don't like t-shirts but that's 'cause I'm fat and they are clingy like "hey check it out my curves have curves" and that's uncomfortable.

[Zeusthecat]

So when you say something like that you disdain fashion, or don't think it should carry much, if any, import, I hear you communicating that you have no interest in (and by extension, many other people should agree with you) this rich tapestry of human expression and communication, a tapestry that literally unfurls behind us thousands of years to the dawn of recorded human history.  And I also hear you being dismissive of social competence in general (a subject I've spent a lot of time thinking about over the years for various reasons).  I don't want to put words into your mouth anymore than you want to put words into mine, I'm just trying to express the reading I am getting off of your posts. 

 

I don't really have any counterargument to what you're saying and I think I more clearly see where you're coming from. I just want to comment on this part and I'll be done derailing the thread.

 

So yes, I think it's fair to say that I have no (and by no I really mean 'very little' because of course I give it some thought) interest in this rich tapestry of human expression and communication. It just does nothing for me. Now as far as social competence goes, I actually do think that is very important and I go to great lengths to make sure I present myself and communicate in a way that is socially acceptable. I talk politely, I dress appropriately for occasions, I try to maintain some level of awareness of social trends so I can better fit in, etc. But there is some of that stuff that I just hate having to worry about and focus on. I hate that things like the way you dress and how you shake hands can be such important metrics for some people that they use to make broad judgments of a person's character. If we could divorce superficial aesthetics entirely from how we judge people I think we would be better off. And I realize that's not gonna happen so that's why I'm just whining about it on the internet.

[Bjorn]

I don't really have any counterargument to what you're saying and I think I more clearly see where you're coming from. I just want to comment on this part and I'll be done derailing the thread.

 

So yes, I think it's fair to say that I have no (and by no I really mean 'very little' because of course I give it some thought) interest in this rich tapestry of human expression and communication. It just does nothing for me. Now as far as social competence goes, I actually do think that is very important and I go to great lengths to make sure I present myself and communicate in a way that is socially acceptable. I talk politely, I dress appropriately for occasions, I try to maintain some level of awareness of social trends so I can better fit in, etc. But there is some of that stuff that I just hate having to worry about and focus on. I hate that things like the way you dress and how you shake hands can be such important metrics for some people that they use to make broad judgments of a person's character. If we could divorce superficial aesthetics entirely from how we judge people I think we would be better off. And I realize that's not gonna happen so that's why I'm just whining about it on the internet.

 

And I honestly think that personally checking out of paying attention to fashion is an entirely reasonable choice, as long as it's not dismissive of other people paying attention to it.  We all have so many different things going on in our lives, there's no reason to pay attention to fashion anymore than necessary if it doesn't do anything for you.  I honestly don't pay that much attention, other than I get pretty excited the few times I year I have an excuse to really clean myself up and dress to the nines.  But it's one of those subjects that when I do read about it, particularly the more complex social and historical facets, I find it pretty fascinating.

 

I also want to say that I don't think you have to care about fashion to display social competence, it's entirely possible to have high social intelligence and not give a shit about fashion.  Fashion is just one of the ways of displaying it.  I don't want to come off as saying that people who don't care about it aren't socially competent. 

 

 

 

On the subject of fashion, earlier this year I watched the old documentary Paris is Burning about New York City ball culture, the gay club culture that was about fashion and performance.  It's a great documentary, and also explores some of the interplay that happens between mainstream fashion and how niche (often minority) cultures influence that, often without the acknowledgement they deserve. 

[clyde]

I don't know if this view has been made clear yet ( it's been said a couple times, but we might be in a different state of mind than before), but what that Rubin article about menswear at E3 suggested to me is this:

-The marketing departments of these game-companies understand that fashion is a way to communicate who they are to their target demographic.

-They think their target demographic has an active disdain for menswear that implies effort in the look.

I understand that not everyone will agree with this assessment, but from my perspective, the normcore fashion displayed was an intentional way to communicate "Hey, we are like you, we don't care about what we wear either."

I think it's interesting to consider how that act of fashion reaffirms the market-stereotypes and may further entrench established markets that video game-marketing has traditionally appealed to and grown subservient too. It's also interesting to consider how different acts of fashion may affect all that.

[tegan]

I'm still attempting to find places that are suited for fashionable plus-size women's lines that aren't super expensive. It's hard. 

 

I'm super tall and trying to lose weight, so I can't find anything. I usually have to go with gender-neutral mens' clothes like t-shirts. Also, I inevitably end up tearing the crotch out of all of my shorts and pants within a few months because of all the walking I do.

 

The height thing hurts more than you'd expect. Everything is proportioned to match, so I've never owned, say, womens' shoes or gloves. It sucks.

 

I'm actually pretty interested in getting into fashion design as a side project. I'm interested in making my own clothing so that I wouldn't have to feel restricted by store sizes anymore, but I'm also fascinated by wearable tech. Not in the shitty Apple Watch way, in the cool "functional shit built into your actual clothes" way. Google and Levi's are working on something called Project Jacquard right now where they're weaving conductive thread directly into common fabrics (denim, polyester, etc) so that every item produced basically has its own touchpad. It's... an idea I actually had ages ago but didn't have the resources to do myself. I'm excited to see where that goes.

[Bjorn]

The height thing hurts more than you'd expect. Everything is proportioned to match, so I've never owned, say, womens' shoes or gloves. It sucks.

 

My partner is 6' tall, and she's constantly frustrated by how her height limits the clothes she can wear.  Sleeves are a huge problem.  She can find things that fit her torso or waist, but then the sleeves end at weird places on her arms.  Summer dresses are just a universal bust, because the majority of them end up ending at her crotch since they're made for women 5-8 inches shorter than her.   She wears a lot of men's pants for the same reason. 

 

She's always sewed, making blankets and quilts.  About a decade ago she got frustrated with never being able to find any Renaissance festival wear that fit her, so she taught herself how to make dresses for when we go out to the fair.  Now she's good enough that certain garments, particularly dresses, she just makes herself now. 

[Twig]

Being tall is the worst. ):

[Apple Cider]

I'd kill people for the ability to have deeper pockets or pockets at all in things.

[tegan]

I'd kill people for the ability to have deeper pockets or pockets at all in things.

 

but then they couldn't sell you purses

[Apple Cider]

I got a messenger bag recently because I hate purses and guess what - messenger bags are not made for tits or long hair. 

[Reyturner]

I got a messenger bag recently because I hate purses and guess what - messenger bags are not made for tits or long hair.

I have the same problem. Well, not the hair thing.

I've mastered holding my bag in the nonchalant anti splice position when I walk.

[tegan]

I use a Club Nintendo messenger bag because it's just super-light canvas, but it's full of holes now and the only other ones I can find are super heavy leather things covered with pockets and buckles. It's like Rob Liefeld designed a bag.

[Badfinger]

I'd kill people for the ability to have deeper pockets or pockets at all in things.

I feel like that all the time. I can't imagine how you feel!

[Cleinhun]

For a long time I was mostly a t-shirt and cargo shorts kind of guy, but I've recently been trying to expand on that, without really knowing what I'm doing. Something I've been wondering is, how does one make shorts work? It was 95 today, so fuck pants, but are people judging me for my shorts? Are there different kinds of shorts that are seen as more respectable? Or should I just say screw it and stick to what I already have?

[osmosisch]

clyde, on 23 Jun 2015 - 20:22, said:

It was actually a very interesting read, I just had nothing to say about it. I'm interested. The idea of "secret labels" is really interesting. I've never heard of that.

William Gibson's work since Idoru is really into fashion/brands as a theme or subtheme. It's pretty cool.

[Apple Cider]

For a long time I was mostly a t-shirt and cargo shorts kind of guy, but I've recently been trying to expand on that, without really knowing what I'm doing. Something I've been wondering is, how does one make shorts work? It was 95 today, so fuck pants, but are people judging me for my shorts? Are there different kinds of shorts that are seen as more respectable? Or should I just say screw it and stick to what I already have?

 

It really depends on what kind of shorts and where you are - you can pull off a professional look with more tightly cut men's shorts if you pair it with a nice polo or button down shirt, lace up shoes. 

https://cdnb.lystit.com/photos/2012/02/14/ralph-lauren-black-label-black-james-stretch-twill-shorts-product-1-2896520-972242104_large_flex.jpeg

 

Basically a lot of men's fashion relies on pretty much color coordination, lack of stuff on t-shirts, and a good cut. Cargo shorts can also work provided they aren't too long. Pair with a t-shirt and button down that fits a bit. Longer cargo shorts still sort of fall into the frat boy category but if you're someplace casual like the beach, it doesn't matter as much. 

http://www.menfashionhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/men-cargo-shorts-5.jpeg

[Spenny]

For a long time I was mostly a t-shirt and cargo shorts kind of guy, but I've recently been trying to expand on that, without really knowing what I'm doing. Something I've been wondering is, how does one make shorts work? It was 95 today, so fuck pants, but are people judging me for my shorts? Are there different kinds of shorts that are seen as more respectable? Or should I just say screw it and stick to what I already have?

 

Shoes and socks are important to making it work, try and wear ankle or invisible socks, boat shoes or simple canvas shoes work well. Ditching cargo shorts is an easy step towards more fashionable shorts, try to find non patterned shorts that go to just above the knee.

[Twig]

I'd like to wear shorts but my legs are gross so I don't!

 

But it's so hot here. So I need to wear shorts. I don't actually own any shorts.

[feelthedarkness]

I don't own any non-athletic shorts. I've been stuck in the mindset that shorts are for 8 year olds and tourists. But now I'm moving to TEXAS. There will have to be a reckoning. 

[feelthedarkness]

To tie this to feelthedarkness' post of punk fashion, I think it's a good illustration of what I'm talking about.  Many "squares" judged the hell out of the way punks dressed.  But the punks were actually displaying very high social competence.  They had two primary audiences their fashion was meant to communicate to, an in-group they wanted to impress and an out-group they wanted to offend.  So even though they were mocked and judged for what they wore by the out-group, their fashion was completely successful for them.  If the out-group would have complimented and told them what a lovely job they had done sewing that anarchy badge onto their pants, the fashion would have been likely been considered a failure. (I'm no expert at all on punk fashion and feelthedarkness can feel free to destroy me on my very basic and uniformed reading of the personal politics of punk fashion). 

 

haha, not at all. that's totally spot on! it gets weirder over time because now in year 30 you see a civil war reenactment quality, where groups are loyal to certain era's styles. Also, for funny further reading, an article a friend wrote like 6+ years ago about the Crust Pants of Japan, including a how to:  http://www.terminal-boredom.com/crustpants.html

[Spenny]

I've seen before that shorts are a point of contention in the communities focused on male fashion. There's an old reference to male maturity along the lines of "outgrew his short pants" which those in the anti shorts camp use to make the case that adult men shouldn't wear shorts.

 

I think it's silly.

 

I hate the heat. Shorts are practical, and can look great. I also pretty frequently sport cutoff jeans, which a feel pretty firmly puts me in the pro shorts camp. 

[Mangela Lansbury]

I like shorts, but I can't behind the suit with shorts look. It just looks off to me -- shorts are casual, dammit!

[Badfinger]

I think a nice pair of Dockers-type shorts are perfectly acceptable with a polo or button down shirt. That's basically the Badfinger Summer Uniform - reasonable khaki shorts + belt, polo or long sleeve button down with sleeves rolled up, appropriate shoes for the activity. I like the way boat shoes look, but I don't like not wearing socks. I think a pair of cargo shorts that are cut to the same length work for many of the situations I'd wear the others. I am not into the cargo shorts that are below the knees, but again I'm the preppy clean cut type.

 

I wish I could remember who tweeted it (looked it up, seems first shot at this was @parodydoherty), because I love this so damn much and am scared to identify with it.

 

"What girls think on the first 4 dates:

 

First date: Nice shirt

Second date: Another nice shirt

Third date: First shirt again

Fourth date: He only owns two shirts"