Serial - The Podcast

[Brodie]

So, I know that a few people are listening to this now and I really wanna talk about it in general. The whole thing is absolutely fascinating to me- the story, the process of law, the structure of the show; all of it.

 

However, the real question on my mind right now is -

 

Is it ethical to drag something with so much personal hurt (a murder) into the public light in such an intimate fashion when most of the people involved are still alive, in this, the age of harassment and doxxing? Does it cause more harm to those involved to have their story told in such a way?

 

 

 

 

[JonCole]

Is this meant to be a spin-off of the Other Podcasts thread (starting here) for more continued discussion of Serial instead of continuing there? If so, I'm for that. If not, you might want to take a look at the last couple pages where we've been talking about the issues you're talking about (namely ethics and responsible reporting) precisely.

[Brodie]

Actually, you know what? Yeah. Lets break this out and discuss it. There is a lot to dig into.

[Mangela Lansbury]

I think the podcast has done well so far. There are maybe a few things that are questionable (like giving some kind of identifying information for people who declined to consent to their identity being given on the show), but it's not like this is the Plume affair or anything. This kind of story is important to tell because of the good it can bring into the world, and while there are some gross things that have come out of the telling, that doesn't mean that this kind of story shouldn't be told.

Also, things like 48 Hours exist and nobody goes hog wild with harassment because of them, what the fuck is wrong with you, internet

[Architecture]

Reddit must be destroyed.

[namman siggins]

I'm going to have to go with Mangela on this for now.

I'm still formulating how I feel about this show.

[syntheticgerbil]

Yeah I listen the second it comes out but I don't know what to say until it's all over.

 

I tried to read up on Reddit a few weeks ago beginning around the "Adnan is a psychopath" thread appearing and I typed about it in the other thread. Funny I called it way before the articles started coming out. It makes me feel awesome. Not really. Anyway Reddit is impossible to follow, it's a fucking mess, just like Twitter, and people are just posting left and right without much to add. I suppose people looking up people can't be helped but meh, I can't imagine anyone would be closer to finding the answers than Sarah Koenig herself. Are people really that bored on Reddit?

 

I'm pretty much just setting myself up to feel disappointment by the end of the show. My idea is if this ends with any kind of proof of Adnan's innocence, it would have been figured out weeks or months before the current episode, and you think people would be able to dig up that kind of info if any kind of appeal happens.

However I do hope Serial continues with other stories after this case. That was the original idea right?

 

I also wish This American Life would come out once a week, that's always fucking annoyed me. I'd totally subscribed like $40 a year or so to just have a new episode a week.

[Brodie]

I'm pretty much just setting myself up to feel disappointment by the end of the show. .

 

Same. I can't help but get the feeling that the events in questions are happening on the periphery of an episode of The Wire, what with so much inconsistency and events that don't add up. There's this feeling that any added data could change everything and that is exciting. I really hope they make more.

 

 

I think the podcast has done well so far. There are maybe a few things that are questionable (like giving some kind of identifying information for people who declined to consent to their identity being given on the show), but it's not like this is the Plume affair or anything. This kind of story is important to tell because of the good it can bring into the world, and while there are some gross things that have come out of the telling, that doesn't mean that this kind of story shouldn't be told.

Also, things like 48 Hours exist and nobody goes hog wild with harassment because of them, what the fuck is wrong with you, internet

 

I agree, stories like this should be told and this is hardly the first time something of this nature has entered the public consciousness.  It's just that after the events of the past few months I suppose I think about this sort of thing more than I used to.

 

 

Reddit must be destroyed.

 

Here here! At least it should be disinfected, if such a thing were possible. What is the digital equivalent of diluted bleach and a hose?

[Architecture]

Here here! At least it should be disinfected, if such a thing were possible. What is the digital equivalent of diluted bleach and a hose?

Server reset, I'd imagine.

[melmer]

So I blazed through episodes 4-9 of this this morning. I was a bit hungover and so just sat around listening to this for like 4 hours. I knew when I started it I was a couple months behind and I had the impression that all of this was pre-recorded, the series would have 10 episodes and a conclusion (not expecting any real answer) before they had put out episode 1. So it just dawned on me listening to the latest episode that this stuff is happening RIGHT NOW. Confronting Jay at his house must've only happened 2-3 weeks ago right? Crazy. Maybe longer, but still. I wouldn't be surprised if Jay himself has marathoned this podcast in the past couple weeks like I have this morning (That's if he wasn't already awear of it). Jesus, this must be turning his life upside down right now.

[Chris]

I think a lot of that material was gathered months and months ago. They're EDITING the podcasts in real time and that allows them to respond to things that are currently coming to light, but I think the actual primary source reporting was done before they even started releasing. That doesn't mean they won't do more, but I think stuff like the Jay interview was part of the original reporting.

[melmer]

Ah, thank you for clearing that up. I remember her saying they had had email correspondence since the meeting and ultimately Jay declined a recorded interview. Wonder if the ammount of attention this podcast is getting will make him change his mind...

Just realised that I must be exactly the same age as them. I'm 31, would've been 16, 15 years ago. I can't remember annnnything from that entire year. I know that if a horrible event such as this had occurred I may have retained some memories, but still. And it sounds like everyone involved was high a lot of the time. That ain't helping. Perhaps Jay was just so stoned that day that he can't actually remember details. Maybe that's what he's wrestling with now and hasn't come forward, as people will say "how cold and emotionless can you be to forget burying a murdered girl", but these memories may just be gone for him

It makes my think about that awesome book we read for the idle book club about how memories can twist over time. I can't even remember the name of the book

[Jake]

Sense of an Ending

[JonCole]

And it sounds like everyone involved was high a lot of the time. That ain't helping. Perhaps Jay was just so stoned that day that he can't actually remember details. Maybe that's what he's wrestling with now and hasn't come forward, as people will say "how cold and emotionless can you be to forget burying a murdered girl", but these memories may just be gone for him

 

God, no kidding. Part of the weird tension of Serial for me is that Sarah is a northeastern white Jewish daughter of a copywriter and all of her subjects are about as far away from that as you can imagine. The whole drugs element is part of that - she never seems to really fully absorb the idea that a lot of teenagers just smoke weed to pass the time, or that notable landmarks in a town might be the oft-mentioned Best Buy parking lot, etc. There are just months of my teenage years where literally nothing of interest happened and all I did was hang out in a public park and do dumb drugs. If I was accused of a crime during that part of my life, I would have literally no idea how to defend myself because my alibi is "there's nothing to do around this town, so I was just dicking around somewhere".

[Brodie]

Sense of an Ending

 

didn't make this connection before but yes. 

[prettyunsmart]

Apparently Adnan is going to get another appeal in January, which has been in the work since before the podcast started airing. As I post this, I realize someone may see that and think of it as podcast spoilers, which once again makes me think about how weird this whole thing is.

[Brodie]

After the last episode I can't help but think that Adnan's defense may have been structurally correct but the presentation was absolutely terrible. It's sad to me that this plays such a large part of our culture's approach to justice but there it is, it's a show and if you are not a good showperson then your case is at a disadvantage. In light of that- his lawyer being grating, nervous and generally unlikable probably did him no favors.

[SuperBiasedMan]

After the last episode I can't help but think that Adnan's defense may have been structurally correct but the presentation was absolutely terrible. It's sad to me that this plays such a large part of our culture's approach to justice but there it is, it's a show and if you are not a good showperson then your case is at a disadvantage. In light of that- his lawyer being grating, nervous and generally unlikable probably did him no favors.

 

I've thought about this a lot too, and also the thought that there are probably improvements that could be made and potentially better systems, but ultimately this is just a difficult issue with no good solution. Even with massively vast surveillance of everything, intent must be judged and the footage must be interpreted. Objects are more reliable than people with their memories and biases but what facts they represent is still a fluid thing, as the cell tower evidence demonstrates. No matter what, people are judges and people don't make perfect systems.

[sclpls]

So, I know that a few people are listening to this now and I really wanna talk about it in general. The whole thing is absolutely fascinating to me- the story, the process of law, the structure of the show; all of it.

 

However, the real question on my mind right now is -

 

Is it ethical to drag something with so much personal hurt (a murder) into the public light in such an intimate fashion when most of the people involved are still alive, in this, the age of harassment and doxxing? Does it cause more harm to those involved to have their story told in such a way?

 

There's a lot of ambiguous ethical questions there. However one thing I am certain of is that the position Sarah Koenig has staked out for herself is analogous to that of a lot of popular YouTube Lets Play personalities. They are all claiming that standard journalistic ethics don't apply to them because they are entertainers. And in both cases I think they are being disingenuous.

 

I used to work at a non-profit law firm that handled capital punishment appeals. One thing the attorneys always insisted to our clients was not to agree to any media requests. The reason for that was because there is always too much uncertainty in the outcome of both the presentation from the media, and the reaction from the public for it to be an acceptable risk. I haven't listened to Serial even though by all accounts it is excellent, but because of my experience I am always deeply suspicious of how this sort of narration is handled.

[Reyturner]

"Brought to you by Trunk Club"

 

[Twig]

Next week's the final episode and it's gearing up to be probably nothing spectacular!!!!

[SuperBiasedMan]

I look forward to the reveal that the killer is

Bob.

[Bjorn]

Yeah, the show feels like it is going out on a massive whimper, exactly as a lot of people expected early on.  I have to wonder if they are ending it earlier than intended, feeling it has gone off the rails some.  You've got the ethical concerns about amateur sleuths trying to figure the story out.  Adnan becoming upset this most recent episode over questions that have nothing to do with the murder, is he even interested in continuing to cooperate.  There are so, so, so many people who just don't want to talk publicly about it (understandably).  Honestly, two of the last three episodes have felt really pointless to me, like they have been drawing this out in hopes of getting other people to talk to them.

[Twig]

It's possible it wasn't planned this way, and possible it wasn't possible to plan another way, but I feel like this latest episode would've made much more sense earlier on. Or split up and inserted elsewhere. "Hey here's some more stuff humanizing Adnan!" Hmm. Dunno!

[SuperBiasedMan]

The choice of pacing was definitely odd, because all the more factual seeming stuff came up front and now there's been a lot of filling gaps or other themes she's put together. I guess since the edits are real time she might not have realised that these themes had less to them. Or possibly it was a deliberate choice to hook people in very early. I've entirely enjoyed the last few though, it hasn't felt like they were unnecessary or stretched out to me. They've still expanded my knowledge of the whole situation pretty well. I think this 12 episode length makes sense, even if it's a bit longer than I would've expected when I started listening.