Baby Got Backstory - A trope creation thread

[Twig]

Man, I'd totally play King of Pain! Too bad cosmetic items can't change base character models as far as I know.

Arcanas do, somewhat! But probably not a whole gender swap. ):

[Gormongous]

I wouldn't since her weird dehumanization and sexualzation are pretty integral to EVA, but I do seem to remember there being a throwaway line explaining what the skin tight plug suites were for, given as Rei hits the literal vacuum seal button to reveal her figure no less. 

I sorta agree with you on this one, but it might be just we are giving it a easy ride because the overall fiction of Eva is generally well put together, & How well put together a backstory is overall shouldn't matter in a way, only if the creator has decided that they want to show a bit of skin and are using that backstory to justify their decision.

 

I'm inclined to include both Rei and the plugsuits as examples of our nascent trope. Really good thematic justification to back up the diagetic justification doesn't mean that the trope isn't in effect, it just means that the trope isn't just a fig leaf. Also, In the second volume of the Eva manga, Sadamoto Yoshiyuki talks specifically how plugsuits were designed first and foremost to be "uncosplayable" and how disappointed they were when people wore them to the next Comiket anyway, so definitely that, at least.

 

real talk eva is terrible i will not abide positive comments about it get out of this internet with that kind of talk

 

I've got bad news, Twig, there are going to be things you don't like that are examples of this trope.

 

So here's the question I think we need to figure out.  Is BGB a justified trope or a hand waving trope?  If it's a justified trope, then if the application is integral to the plot it counts (such as Miranda from Mass Effect).  If it's hand waving, then the minor nonsensical ones count (such as EDI from Mass Effect).  Or are we considering both?

 

I think it's a Justified Trope, if only because conscious justification is necessary to its implementation, but many examples border on Hand-Waving Tropes.

[Codicier]

I'm inclined to include both Rei and the plugsuits as examples of our nascent trope. Really good thematic justification to back up the diagetic justification doesn't mean that the trope isn't in effect, it just means that the trope isn't just a fig leaf. Also, In the second volume of the Eva manga, Sadamoto Yoshiyuki talks specifically how plugsuits were designed first and foremost to be "uncosplayable" and how disappointed they were when people wore them to the next Comiket anyway, so definitely that, at least.

I've got bad news, Twig, there are going to be things you don't like that are examples of this trope.

I think it's a Justified Trope, if only because conscious justification is necessary to its implementation, but many examples border on Hand-Waving Tropes.

I fell like there must be at least a intent to create justification (no matter how incompetent or half hearted)for this to work, this isn't just about orphaning responsibility but about shifting it to something the creator thinks gives themselves a defence against any criticism.

[CollegeBaby]

How about the Bene Gesserit from Dune? At the very least it feels like Mass Effects choice of a race of psychics who are engaged in a certain amount of selective breeding is perhaps just a more liberated take on what herbet did.

 

Can you elaborate? I've only read the first book but I don't remember the Bene Gesserit explicitly being sexualised, and their history was integral to the narrative and themes of the book overall so I don't think one could say it was primarily to justify sexualisation.

[Twig]

I've got bad news, Twig, there are going to be things you don't like that are examples of this trope.

noooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Codicier]

Can you elaborate? I've only read the first book but I don't remember the Bene Gesserit explicitly being sexualised, and their history was integral to the narrative and themes of the book overall so I don't think one could say it was primarily to justify sexualisation.

I raised them for two reasons mainly to offer a comparison with Mass Effects Asari so we could try and figure out where we are drawing the lines here.

I think you've actuall answered it to a certain extent, but also that your answer brings up some intresting questions in its own right.

You're correct that at least in the initial books at least they were not explicitly sexualised, however if memory serves me(although it is a 10+ year gap since I read them) correctly they are to quite a large extent in some of the later ones.

So in BG's case the initial creator wove their sexual aspects into the plot in a integral way which while acknowledging their sexuality didn't fetishise it, but later on other creators who worked with the IP chose to use that backstory in a way which had a entirely different tone to the original work, and which at times seemed like just a excuse to write bad sex scenes.

So do the later works count or not?

Equally does the existence of the BG mean we should look at the Asari more or less critically since I feel there are at least some aspects of them which are derived from the BG.

[Cordeos]

Can you elaborate? I've only read the first book but I don't remember the Bene Gesserit explicitly being sexualised, and their history was integral to the narrative and themes of the book overall so I don't think one could say it was primarily to justify sexualisation.

 

They have sex in order to selectively preserve specific genetic traits and lines, but I don't really think they fit this trope. In most games and movies in the dune universe they dress like nuns. 

[Gormongous]

They have sex in order to selectively preserve specific genetic traits and lines, but I don't really think they fit this trope. In most games and movies in the dune universe they dress like nuns. 

 

Also, they typically marry to have that sex, then raise those children. It's barely sexualized at all, at least in in the original works. I haven't read many by Herbert's son, so if there's a scene in those books where a Bene Gesserit walks up to the Duke of Ginaz and is like, "Take me now," and then later it's revealed that it was part of some breeding program, then that works a lot better.

[BobbyBesar]

I could swear there's at least one Superman story where some other super-powerful alien tries to seduce Superman to impregnate her to make super-powerful warrior babies. I can't think of a specific one at the moment though.

[Cordeos]

Sorry if this is mentioned already: Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite puts on more revealing clothes because he other clothes were bloody I think. I was bothered by it immediately, especially because so much killing had already happened around her, only specific blood mattered I guess.

 

Also do totally unnecessary nude scenes count? Because the sponge bath Inara takes in the first episode of Firefly is totally pointless aside from titillation. I'm sure there are thousands of examples of this (See most shower scenes ever). I never played Heavy Rain, but I know there is some odd stripping scene.

[Codicier]

Also, they typically marry to have that sex, then raise those children. It's barely sexualized at all, at least in in the original works. I haven't read many by Herbert's son, so if there's a scene in those books where a Bene Gesserit walks up to the Duke of Ginaz and is like, "Take me now," and then later it's revealed that it was part of some breeding program, then that works a lot better.

Did a little bit of reading to fill in the gaps in my memory it seems I was probably mistaking a Bene Gesserit character for a member of the Honoured Matres who appear in one of the later book, and yep they certainly do like to get their freak on

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_Matres

The Honored Matres are characterized by their extremely violent tendencies and their ability to imprint a man sexually, amplifying his orgasmic response to such an ecstatic height that the victim of an imprinting becomes "addicted" to his imprinter, thereby becoming a willing slave of the Honored Matre who "marks" him. Both of these qualities are presumably evolutions of the unbridled sexual energies of the Siaynoq communion once enjoyed by the Fish Speakers with the God Emperor Leto Atreides II. The sexual imprinting practiced by the Honored Matres also hints at their roots in the original Bene Gesserit, who possessed similar, though significantly less potent, abilities

[Gormongous]

Todd Ciolek writes about Bayonetta and other justified-cheesecake characters in this week's X Button: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/the-x-button/2014-11-05/uncovered-paths/.80685

 

Did a little bit of reading to fill in the gaps in my memory it seems I was probably mistaking a Bene Gesserit character for a member of the Honoured Matres who appear in one of the later book, and yep they certainly do like to get their freak on
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_Matres

 

Yeah, the Honored Matres fit, and I wondered if you were talking about them, but what nerd worth his salt would mix them up with the Bene Gesserit, seriously.

[Cordeos]

Did a little bit of reading to fill in the gaps in my memory it seems I was probably mistaking a Bene Gesserit character for a member of the Honoured Matres who appear in one of the later book, and yep they certainly do like to get their freak on

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honored_Matres

 

Ug yeah that part of Heretics of Dune where one character has been designed to be the male counter to them was pretty bad. Herbert should not have written love/sex scenes.

[BobbyBesar]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that Herbert should not have written Heretics of Dune?

[Cordeos]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that Herbert should not have written Heretics of Dune?

 

True. Children of Dune would have been a fine ending. Even God Emperor would have worked. Heretics and Chapterhouse were the only books in the Dune series that couldnt have ended it, and then he died. Also I would not recommend the Brian Herbert books, they aren't even close to as good and his resolution of the main series is awful. He did drop the sex as a weapon thing from what I remember.

[SecretAsianMan]

I could swear there's at least one Superman story where some other super-powerful alien tries to seduce Superman to impregnate her to make super-powerful warrior babies. I can't think of a specific one at the moment though.

 

How about this

 

[SecretAsianMan]

Also do totally unnecessary nude scenes count? Because the sponge bath Inara takes in the first episode of Firefly is totally pointless aside from titillation. I'm sure there are thousands of examples of this (See most shower scenes ever). I never played Heavy Rain, but I know there is some odd stripping scene.

 

Unless there's an explained reason for why it has to be there I'd say no because that's basically just gratuitous nudity for the sake of nudity.

[tegan]

There's a joke in the Firefly commentary about how they had to cut out the Jayne sponge bath scene. I had forgotten about that until just now.

[Cyborg771]

Todd Ciolek writes about Bayonetta and other justified-cheesecake characters in this week's X Button: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/the-x-button/2014-11-05/uncovered-paths/.80685

 

Is Todd a member of these forums because that article is shockingly close to the stuff we're talking about, breaking down the differences between characters who are sexy-for-sexy sake and those that try to justify their pandering, etc.

[syntheticgerbil]

What!? Sonic X-Treme to be released as a playable build?! Gimme.

[Cyborg771]

Yeah, their format precludes linking to individual headings so..... it takes some scrolling

[Twig]

In the world of The Witcher, all the pretty sorceresses are pretty because they used magic to make themselves pretty!

 

The dude sorcerors tend to use their magic to make themselves look wise, rather than smokin' hot. But there are some dudes who go the sexy route.

 

(my source is a kotaku lore dump: http://kotaku.com/a-beginner-s-guide-to-the-world-of-the-witcher-1704506152, although I already knew the bit about the ladies making themselves pretty)

[Twig]

Might as well crosspost from the feminism thread since SAM brought it up! Teehee.

 

re: Quiet, from MGSV

 

"It makes sense that certain kinds of nanomachines might require energy intake by sunlight and osmosis and thus requiring the human to expose maximum amounts of skin. That's just how nanomachines work."

[Zeusthecat]

Might as well crosspost from the feminism thread since SAM brought it up! Teehee.

 

re: Quiet, from MGSV

 

It also makes sense that nanomachines, like nerve endings, would be most concentrated in guy's weiners. They really should all be wearing crotchless pants if they want to get the most out of their nanomachines. 

[Bjorn]

That doesn't seem like it would be out of place at all in MGS.