Baby Got Backstory - A trope creation thread

[Twig]

Yes I know, but none of that really helps place it in this trope, so.

 

I think what I was getting at is that in a way the whole succubus thing had to start somewhere, and that whoever made the choice to create these fictional creatures made a choice that externalise the sexual, basically doing the same thing that I feel like the BGB trope might be based around, & I think perhaps thought because the idea of external emotional personification is so deeply embedded in fiction it doesn't count.

I'd guess that the whole succubus thing started back in burn-the-witch time (or there's probably an example in the bible somewhere cause that shit's insane and satan probably made succubi or some shit who knows) and wasn't something explicitly created for fiction, but I don't really know.

 

I think the important distinction is that the succubus itself is a trope, and not that every instance of the succubus in fiction fits with this trope.

 

EDIT: "According to Zohar and the Alphabet of Ben Sira, Lilith was Adam's first wife who later became a succubus. She left Adam and refused to return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangel Samael."

 

Well okay then. I guess it wasn't Satan, at least. It was Samael. Sort of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus

[BobbyBesar]

Succubi exist to justify wet dreams to repressed medieval prudes. It goes way back, but the decision to apply it in any particular fiction is still a deliberate one.

[Twig]

The problem is, this is already an established trope, rather than a brand new justification. There's not even always an explanation; it's just, hey, here's a succubus, she's trying to seduce you, get fucked (literally!)!

 

This certainly isn't a Jessica Rabbit situation where the justification is one created specifically for the fiction she's a part of!

 

*waggles eyebrows*

[Reyturner]

=_=

[Twig]

*waggles eyebrows*

 

oh i mean

 

[BobbyBesar]

Example time!

 

Example 1:

Final Fantasy's Viera (bunny girls). The entire race wears stiletto heels because their ankle joints are basically shaped like Barbie's feet. There are technically males of the species, but they're secretive and so never seen. Female viera "retain their appearance until old age", which I guess means they're all always at prime physical attractiveness. 

 

Plus, there's this:

Like the wood warder viera in her homeland, Fran dresses in a revealing piece of armor that resembles lacy lingerie in the style of a teddy and stockings. Part of the material of her bodysuit and leg-wear is metal adorned with filigree. The front of her armor is open with a sheer piece of fabric covering her stomach. She has a "rabbit tail" style decorative piece at the small of her back, but it is not as noticeable as other viera's as her hair obscures it most of the time.

 

At first I was thinking: maybe their very concept is inherently sexualized? So it's possible to argue they fall under the "Yeah, they're sexy bunnies. Deal with it" exception. But, even if the initial character design was just a one-off Playboy bunny joke, there's clearly been a lot of lore built up since then that tries to justify it. That lore is what qualifies.

 

INCLUDED!

 

Example 2:

Darkstalkers' Felicia. Felicia is a naked, sexy, catgirl.

 

BUT! There's no attempt to justify it. "Sexy Catgirl" isn't lore so much as a mission statement. She's basically "presented without comment: catgirl".

 

There's basically nothing about where she comes from aside from "there are monsters, some of them are cat people". Any information that _is_ provided about her is not sexual in nature: she's an orphan who wants to be a pop idol.

 

EXCLUDED!

 

One interesting thing that this brings up: the longer lived the property, and thus the more lore you get, the more likely it is to fall afoul of this. If you have a character with a sexualized character design, with enough iterations you're probably eventually going to end up in a place where you try to justify that character design.

[Twig]

I agree with everything in the previous post based on what little knowledge I have of those instances, which is basically the information you provided!

[Codicier]

Speaking of Lilith....i think someone raised it earlier but do characters like Rei Ayanami from Eva who have moments when they are portrayed as either unaware or heedless of social norms regarding nakedness included?

[Reyturner]

Speaking of Lilith....i think someone raised it earlier but do characters like Rei Ayanami from Eva who have moments when they are portrayed as either unaware or heedless of social norms regarding nakedness included?

I wouldn't since her weird dehumanization and sexualzation are pretty integral to EVA, but I do seem to remember there being a throwaway line explaining what the skin tight plug suites were for, given as Rei hits the literal vacuum seal button to reveal her figure no less. 

[sclpls]

Okay, then who should be making the final call, if we're going to start bringing judgment or worthiness into this? That's obviously a question you can't answer. Nor can I. So our options are to be arbitrarily subjective about it all or just include any example, justified or not.

 

I think my earlier distinction - body structure vs. sexy outfits - is more important than this one about justification. But that's maybe me being selfish.

 

Inara from Firefly is naturally an attractive woman, but, AFAIK, there's no genetic modification to make her more beautiful. (It's possible I just forgot or am unaware of this, if it does exist.) She wasn't built to be beautiful. She just is, and then took advantage of that. She'd fall into the sexy outfit category.

 

That's in contrast to Miranda, who WAS built to be beautiful (and perfect in other ways). Same with EDI (or any fembot) - built to be beautiful.

 

Moxxi from Borderlands would fall into the sexy outfit category. Bayonetta, too.

 

Etc.

 

Also we're so far just a bunch of dudes (or at least mostly dudes, from what I know) talking about this. It's even more likely, I think, for a woman to see something as problematic and unjustified than we would. Sooo there's that, too.

 

That last point is incredibly important I think. Most women I know found it just a tad annoying that something as egregious as Dragon's Crown for a lot of dudes to finally observe that female sexualization in games is pretty over the top.

[Twig]

That's exactly why I think we should be as objective as possible and not judge the "worthiness" of something's inclusion in this trope. Just because something might be done "well" (in someone's opinion) doesn't mean it doesn't count.

[sclpls]

Also yeah, the succubus thing, man. There was some article not too long ago about DOTA 2 that was mostly positive but did point out that some of the community kind of sucked, and some of the portrayal of women heroes were less than great. And of course the DOTA 2 subreddit lost their shit, and were like, that writer is an idiot Queen of Pain is a succubus so of course she's like that. And like, I sort of get how they're defensive about that because as far as I can tell out of all the fantasy stuff I've ever seen, DOTA 2 is probably the smallest offender, but I would also argue that's not a particularly impressive accomplishment considering the competition. And yeah, QoP is a succubus, but it could have been anything (why not an incubus, for example?)

[Twig]

I'd kill for a gender-swapped Queen of Pain becoming the default.

 

I'd also kill for a Queen of Pain cosmetic set that had her wearing like a sexy dress instead of a chainmail bikini but that's different and doesn't really solve the problem.

 

And now I'm tangenting again.

[Codicier]

I wouldn't since her weird dehumanization and sexualzation are pretty integral to EVA, but I do seem to remember there being a throwaway line explaining what the skin tight plug suites were for, given as Rei hits the literal vacuum seal button to reveal her figure no less. 

I sorta agree with you on this one, but it might be just we are giving it a easy ride because the overall fiction of Eva is generally well put together, & How well put together a backstory is overall shouldn't matter in a way, only if the creator has decided that they want to show a bit of skin and are using that backstory to justify their decision.

[Twig]

real talk eva is terrible i will not abide positive comments about it get out of this internet with that kind of talk

[Codicier]

real talk eva is terrible i will not abide positive comments about it get out of this internet with that kind of talk

did we mention it has a deep and meaningful backstory?

[BobbyBesar]

Generally speaking, I don't think that individual moments really count. In my mind, its more about retroactively justifying character design than it is about specific events. Individual events start getting into the realm of whether or not a scene was necessary and thus into questions of writing quality.

Plus, the gratuitous fanservice type scene probably has its own, more specific trope.

[Codicier]

How about the Bene Gesserit from Dune? At the very least it feels like Mass Effects choice of a race of psychics who are engaged in a certain amount of selective breeding is perhaps just a more liberated take on what herbet did.

[Cyborg771]

Man, I'd totally play King of Pain! Too bad cosmetic items can't change base character models as far as I know.

[SecretAsianMan]

So here's the question I think we need to figure out.  Is BGB a justified trope or a hand waving trope?  If it's a justified trope, then if the application is integral to the plot it counts (such as Miranda from Mass Effect).  If it's hand waving, then the minor nonsensical ones count (such as EDI from Mass Effect).  Or are we considering both?

[Reyturner]

Handwaving 100%

*gravel gavel gavel*

[Twig]

Justified 4 Lyfe

 

(Both)

[BobbyBesar]

I'm on the record as saying that gratuitousness is a key determinant in my thought process, which suggests hand-waving. But a "justified" trope can still be gratuitous. A glowing sword can glow because it's magic, and that's just what magic swords do, man. 

 

I don't think it really matters. It's easier to identify in the hand-waving form, but the less obvious ones may still qualify. That really just gets in to the question of the skillfulness with which the justification was crafted.

[BobbyBesar]

Oh, also, Shin Megami Tensei has an Incubus as one of the demons you can recruit. He has a very large, uh, thing, coming from his crotch-al area. Uh, there's also this guy.

[tegan]

I haven't been reading this thread so I don't know why SMT demons have come up, but those two are just the tip (  ) of the iceberg.

 

My favourites are Mara and Diana (NSFW, obviously).