"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

[Flynn]

Here's a bookmarklet that will try to translate hulk-speak into plain old English: http://simonganz.com/2013/04/the-dehulkifier/

The part where he talks about the Sopranos was surprisingly powerful.

 

I read the whole thing again with that converter.  It really gets at why GamerGate has made me so down on gaming and gamer culture and the feedback cycles that sustain this thing.

 

The only positive thing from all this is seeing everyone in games who I follow and love come out so strongly against GamerGate.  Total Biscuit was actually the single person I had been following who was the exception.

[Gormongous]

Is that why half of this page is made up of self congratulatory GamerGate jokes? You really think that kind of antagonistic bullshit is helping?

I think they're definitely helping people here feel better about two solid months during which their favorite industry figures have been under siege and in fear for their lives. Demanding that these people always take the high road against those who do them harm denies their humanity just as much, if not more.

I don't know, man, you've read the manifestos that adherents of the movement have posted and the harassment they've carried out in support of them. Are a couple of goofy knock-knock jokes really what's perpetuating the antagonism here?

[Problem Machine]

Is that why half of this page is made up of self congratulatory GamerGate jokes? You really think that kind of antagonistic bullshit is helping?

Yes.

I do.

I want this movement to be ridiculous. I want it to be insupportable. I want it to be ludicrous.

I don't do these things without thinking about them.

[Smart Jason]

Does anyone else find it extremely troubling that TotalBiscuit's (typically self-important) statement on Dodger contains the words "legitimate harassment"? Tell me if I'm being oversensitive: to me, that sounds like a means of disavowing the experiences of those with whom he isn't personally friendly that have been harassed; like dog whistle language to tell the GamerGate reader of his Twitter feed that this single occasion of misogynistic abuse is as it seems and not a false flag perpetuated by the professional victim. It also has some fairly disturbing Todd Akin echoes, to my ears.
 
 

The thing I really appreciate about the more recent pieces discussing Gamer's Gate like Hulk, Gerstmann, and Felicia Day, is that they actually recognize and respect that the people who are supporting the whole GamerGate mess, are in fact people. This will probably be an unpopular opinion, but I find it sad that most places have taken on an us versus them attitude including here.

 

While it obviously isn't true that if GamerGate takes an action it absolves its targets from blame for that same action (and make no mistake: those are the sides of this issue; not "us versus them" - a hate group and its victims, direct and indirect), you talk as if every platform GamerGate uses hasn't been a means to dehumanize, harangue, and conspire against those whom they consider enemies. To call a series of innocuous lightbulb jokes "antagonistic bullshit" in the face of what people have actually undergone during the past several months is incredibly myopic in its attempt to police the response to harassment by the harassed rather than those who are actually actively engaging in structured, rigorous professional sabotage and criminal acts. What on Earth do you imagine would be accomplished by singularly changing this forum thread?

[singlespace]

I would be more inclined to agree with you it was limited to just here, but it seems to be the prevailing logic of the gaming community that attacking those who attacked you is a reasonable course of action in much less private places than here. What you excuse as venting, I see as needless antagonistic and extending a long dirty fight far longer than it needs to be.

 

I cringe whenever someone yells or taunts Tea Partiers or climate change sceptics as though it will actually help their cause, as though it will actually cause shame in the those who they wish to change the most. How much more pressure has been thrown at those who don't believe in climate change than any of the petulant venting that the gaming community has managed to muster? How many more years of jokes, volumes of facts, legions of experts, have been thrown at them?

 

We even have scientific papers published in Nature supporting tribal bonds are stronger than any attempts at humiliation or rational rebuttal -- they actually harden the resolve of those we wish to change rather than dissuade them of their position because it reinforces the notion that there is such an enemy to fight.

[deleted user]

_

[Merus]

Is that why half of this page is made up of self congratulatory GamerGate jokes? You really think that kind of antagonistic bullshit is helping?

I don't think calm discussions with Gamergaters help much, as I think I've made clear. If the problem was what they believe, it wouldn't be two months later. The problem is how they believe, and that's a much stickier wicket. Having the opportunity to make light of the situation chases away some of the despair, which is definitely helpful.

 

I'm working on something that I hope will help - it's coming from the direction of 'how', not 'what'.

[Problem Machine]

I am not ATTACKING them except by the same logic that claims that Anita Sarkeesian is ATTACKING games by criticizing them.

[Problem Machine]

To clarify, every single fucking one of those jokes was intended to illustrate a dishonest rhetorical method that GGers have been using. They're meant to make these methods a ) common knowledge and b ) laughable. To say that highlighting the absurdity of their methodology is some kind of attack is an absurdity on par with those that I have been mocking.

 

It's not a matter of lolol look at these dummies: It's a matter of highlighting the gaps in GG logic and turning them into something we understand and can control. I'm more than a little angry at the idea that this is some kind of fucking bullying. Criticism is not abuse.

[Twig]

You know what I don't even care if they are real people. They're real people that are choosing to perpetuate an environment of harassment. Fuck them.

 

It's been TWO FUCKING MONTHS of this bullshit and if someone is still claiming to be The Good GamerGater, then they're doing so out of willful fucking ignorance or because they don't think think it's a big fucking deal that people are, under the name of their movement, a movement FOUNDED IN AND FROM AN ENVIRONMENT OF HARASSMENT, continuing to harass Anita and Zoe and Leigh and Brianna and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and. Fuck them.

 

Moreover, I have literally zero fucking pity for a group of people that gets upset over a fucking knock knock joke and then turns around and rejoices that a fucking neo nazi joins their party or a lawyer abuses his power to harass someone already under fire or embraces a known fucking misogynist as a forerunner of their movement. FUCK. THEM.

[BusbyBerkeley]

Wait TB is still pro-gg? I don't know why that surprises me at all... It seems like it's been made abundantly clear over and over again that it's merely the death throes of a shitty awful culture.

[Pepyri]

You know what I don't even care if they are real people. They're real people that are choosing to perpetuate an environment of harassment. Fuck them.

 

It's been TWO FUCKING MONTHS of this bullshit and if someone is still claiming to be The Good GamerGater, then they're doing so out of willful fucking ignorance or because they don't think think it's a big fucking deal that people are, under the name of their movement, a movement FOUNDED IN AND FROM AN ENVIRONMENT OF HARASSMENT, continuing to harass Anita and Zoe and Leigh and Brianna and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and. Fuck them.

 

Moreover, I have literally zero fucking pity for a group of people that gets upset over a fucking knock knock joke and then turns around and rejoices that a fucking neo nazi joins their party or a lawyer abuses his power to harass someone already under fire or embraces a known fucking misogynist as a forerunner of their movement. FUCK. THEM.

 

While I admit this is true, there's a lot of GGers I've met who are part of it more because all their friends are GGers and they've personally never seen an example of the harassment, just GG's counter-claims.

 

One of the biggest issues in media today is the fact that all of us sit within our own echo chamber. There's very little opportunity to learn the other side is human unless you actively engage with them, and like I said earlier in this thread, we've done a pretty horrible job putting our message and position out there, considering it took a month and a half before me, someone clearly anti-GG on Twitter and elsewhere, saw any centralized resource proving their claims were bullshit. I knew better because I've been involved longer, but if you expect everyone to have knowledge of the games media as well as most of us, you're really not understanding the point of media.

[Twig]

If they've never seen it, then how do they react when someone points out the issues? If they realize shit ain't right and back out, then good on them! But I've seen more than enough people in this situation you describe turn around and say "nah I haven't seen it so it's not true". Or "yeah well anti-GGers are harassing too". Or or or. Fuck that.

[Pepyri]

If they've never seen it, then how do they react when someone points out the issues? If they realize shit ain't right and back out, then good on them! But I've seen more than enough people in this situation you describe turn around and say "nah I haven't seen it so it's not true". Or "yeah well anti-GGers are harassing too". Or or or. Fuck that.

 

People rarely back down or fully change when confronted with it. Like, seriously- it's incredibly rare. We all have that issue. And I've seen a lot of people start to back out, or at least concede there's a lot that's fishy, but they still care about that supposed 'core issue', and in the process never completely make the jump.

 

The best way to convert people like that? Don't try. Get the rest of the public on your side. Keep focusing on who you can convert. It changes where the "national borders" are placed, which in the process makes even the diehards easier to convert, or at the least, make irrelevant.

 

To steal from a comedian whose name I'm totally forgetting now: "Be so good they can't ignore you." Make your point obvious, simple, and foolproof.

[Twig]

1) I disagree with your premise. I've seen some people back out of GG after a presentation of facts. One of my friends, the one least likely to back down if you'd asked me beforehand!, actually did change his mind over the course of a couple hours. Obviously you don't run up at them and shove an article in their face "HEY LOOK AT THIS, SHIT-FOR-BRAINS". But if they don't respond well to calm discussion, then... fuck 'em.

 

2) I'm not trying to "convert" anyone (this implies "sides", which I have issues with for a lot of reasons), besides my friends, all of whom luckily do not identify with GG at this point. I inform them of the problem, and that's it. If they continue to be full of shit, then I'm out. They're a waste of my time until they realize the error of their ways. I have no patience for this bullshit anymore. It is gone.

[singlespace]

The primary factor correlated with belief is the belief of those who surround you. To be blunt, if all your friends believe one thing, you are apt to believe the same regardless of the facts. The more you set yourself as an outsider, the less someone will listen to you, hence positions like Hulk's and Gertsmann's are invaluable because they are not seen as partisan as many others and can belong to any group to an extent.

 

Even extremely well educated people will tend to pick their social group's beliefs over those of an outsider. Though it seems counter intuitive, there is a correlation with education and how polarized your position is on any subject regardless of what the facts actually are. The most hardline people on both sides of any issue, regardless of how much evidence points in one direction or another, will be those who are the most educated.

[Problem Machine]

That suggests that there's something fundamentally broken about the way we educate.

[singlespace]

To clarify, every single fucking one of those jokes was intended to illustrate a dishonest rhetorical method that GGers have been using. They're meant to make these methods a ) common knowledge and b ) laughable. To say that highlighting the absurdity of their methodology is some kind of attack is an absurdity on par with those that I have been mocking.

 

It's not a matter of lolol look at these dummies: It's a matter of highlighting the gaps in GG logic and turning them into something we understand and can control. I'm more than a little angry at the idea that this is some kind of fucking bullying. Criticism is not abuse.

It doesn't matter what your intentions are, the people who already agree with you will applaud you, the people who are the subject of your jokes will take it as yet another reason not to listen to you.

 

When you mock and deride someone's beliefs, regardless of how right or wrong those beliefs match reality, you are setting up a situation where they must necessarily harm themselves to admit they were wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's an attack, or abuse, or whatever you want to group it with, you're setting up a situation where to change their mind, and admit they were wrong, they must also admit that they are deserving all the hate being thrown at them, that they are an idiot and rube that should be mocked.

 

You're making it harder for someone to come to your way of thinking.

[singlespace]

That suggests that there's something fundamentally broken about the way we educate.

In terms of scientific outreach, which has failed to reach those who they most desperately wished to reach for decades, yes it does.

[Problem Machine]

It doesn't matter what your intentions are, the people who already agree with you will applaud you, the people who are the subject of your jokes will take it as yet another reason not to listen to you.

 

When you mock and deride someone's beliefs, regardless of how right or wrong those beliefs match reality, you are setting up a situation where they must necessarily harm themselves to admit they were wrong. It doesn't matter whether it's an attack, or abuse, or whatever you want to group it with, you're setting up a situation where to change their mind, and admit they were wrong, they must also admit that they are deserving all the hate being thrown at them, that they are an idiot and rube that should be mocked.

 

You're making it harder for someone to come to your way of thinking.

In the short term, on an individual basis, perhaps. In the long term, my hope is that it makes such positions untenable in the future.

 

Also: Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. These jokes mock nothing they should hold dear: Just empty and abusive practices. Just disingenuous dodges. If they can't shed the things I target without shedding their identity, it shows how shriveled and mean that identity is. If they can't admit they were wrong and made a mistake, we won't get fucking anywhere regardless. If they can't laugh about their mistakes, they'll never admit those mistakes were made.

 

As it is, I would appreciate it if you would regard this as a difference in opinion of how to approach the problem of healing a poisonous culture, rather than mere self-indulgence, because I assure you I put a lot of thought into what I was doing.

[singlespace]

In the short term, on an individual basis, perhaps. In the long term, my hope is that it makes such positions untenable in the future.

 

Also: Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. These jokes mock nothing they should hold dear: Just empty and abusive practices. Just disingenuous dodges. If they can't shed the things I target without shedding their identity, it shows how shriveled and mean that identity is. If they can't admit they were wrong and made a mistake, we won't get fucking anywhere regardless. If they can't laugh about their mistakes, they'll never admit those mistakes were made.

 

As it is, I would appreciate it if you would regard this as a difference in opinion of how to approach the problem of healing a poisonous culture, rather than mere self-indulgence, because I assure you I put a lot of thought into what I was doing.

Good luck with that. The climate change skeptics and Tea Party have weathered far harsher condemnations and are still incredibly large groups.

[Problem Machine]

There's always going to be people like this. The only way we can control the size of these subcultures is by shaping the fabric of culture that forms them.

[Gormongous]

Good luck with that. The climate change skeptics and Tea Party have weathered far harsher condemnations and are still incredibly large groups.

 

I cannot agree with your assertion that my position on any given issue is mostly a historical accident. Sure, many of my friends agree with me when it comes to #GamerGate (though not all), but that is because events and people have caused me to grow enormously as a feminist over the past decade, in accordance with which my circle of friends has shifted appropriately. Even if that weren't the case, it's not like I'm not still responsible for the views I hold as part of my social milieu. Why should I feign sympathy and concern for hostile and radical viewpoints that have done exactly nothing besides harming innocent people in the industry, just on the outside chance that it'll give one of those bullies (or supporters of bullies) a moment of doubt?

 

The rest of what you're posting reminds me a lot of the people who demand that feminists always be giving their opponents Feminism 101, even when under direct attack. The fact is, it's impossible for even the most kind-hearted person always to be doing outreach, and it's been shown that if someone isn't already an ally to women, there's not much that can be said to make them one. With these radicalized issues, there is no magic bullet argument that will make someone reverse their position. The purported existence of one has largely proven to be a chimera that serves only to distract and divide progressives from speaking out on important issues (intentionally or not). As far as I've seen, the moderate Gerstmann has received just as much hate and condemnation from self-proclaimed members of #GamerGate as the openly feminist Klepek, although neither as much as any given female in the industry of course, and this is because neither are speaking in support of the movement, when said movement's principal action besides harassment is seeking out assenting voices like they're Pokémon. The middle ground has failed repeatedly as the means for dialogue over the past two months, both with industry and mainstream figures, so I don't know where exactly you're getting the idea that there have been no efforts at conciliation of "moderate" members of #GamerGate and that such efforts would be effective. What historical precedents do you have in mind here for a group like #GamerGate successfully being deradicalized by a more universally moderate approach from their opponents?

 

Also, are you seriously saying that what the Tea Party has been needing to reduce its influence is due consideration and compromise by the mainstream? I don't know, maybe you haven't been watching the news, because that's pretty much all that the American right has been doing and it has led to the biggest crisis in the Republican Party in decades.

[singlespace]

Who said anything about feigning sympathy or doing outreach? I just think that this whole notion of us versus them along with the associated paraphernalia of ridicule and contempt is as childish as it is harmful to ending this entire mess. Is refraining from petty insults and disdain feigning sympathy and doing outreach to you?

[Bjorn]

I would be more inclined to agree with you it was limited to just here, but it seems to be the prevailing logic of the gaming community that attacking those who attacked you is a reasonable course of action in much less private places than here. What you excuse as venting, I see as needless antagonistic and extending a long dirty fight far longer than it needs to be.

 

Serious question.  So do you consider the Sea Lioning comic to be bullshit antagonistic mockery?  Or the best examples of the "Actually Ethics" memes?  If those are fine, how do the jokes here cross the line that those don't?  If you think those are just as bad, then we've got a bit of a different discussion going on. 

 

I'm not going to say that our little collection of lightbulb jokes is as good as either of those, but they are mostly all in the same spirit of providing some light hearted commentary, criticism and, yes, some mockery through some humor.