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Ferguson

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Mainly because bureaucracy, as terrible as it can be some times, has in the past been a means of social change.  You used to be able to own people in America, only white men were allowed to vote, etc, and bureaucracy changed that.  We tend to focus on legal or bureaucratic changes because those are the mechanics by which the government functions.  I'll admit in recent years this system has been failing, however that is the result of a coordinated effort by a minority in congress.  I can't find it at the moment, but there was an article recently that described how a relatively small group can more or less prevent the whole thing from functioning.  I'll keep looking and add a link here if I can come across it.

 

Edit: This isn't the article I was referencing, but shows that the problem is essentially either that a bill gets filibustered, or bogged down in committee as various interests attempt to add amendments to the bill that can be unrelated to it.  In recent months, this has been trying to add more sanctions to Iran in an attempt to torpedo the nuclear negotiations.

 

Man, I dunno. It sounds crazy generous to give all credit to the bureaucracy like that. All the bureaucracy did was relent to pressure from the people, and only after it exhausted all avenues of repression. And whatever racist interests got burned never really gave up their fight, they just abstracted it a bit so that they could market it better. Bureaucracy is just a means power uses to simplify conditions on the ground. It is kinda amoral and by design stupid, alienating. The congress is set up to minimize democracy. From the getgo, the saintly founding fathers put measures in place to curb anything resembling real democracy because they feared proper justice would be a thing the rabble might push for if they had access to power. And now with money=speech there is practically nothing people can do short of a double plus total general strike to get their voices heard. It is a dysfunctional system rapidly losing legitimacy.

 

I disagree. Patchwork reform that keeps police from shooting people with impunity is worthwhile. Holding police officers that murder people accountable doesn't solve every systemic problem in society but it should save innocent lives and is a worthwhile, reasonably achievable step towards further reform. Everything can't be fixed at once through the political process, but that's no reason not to fix what we can when we can.

 

Yeah, you're right, but it would be a small tactical victory. I don't think it is going to happen. Because nothing people want happens in this country any more.

 

I very much share the sentiment and frustration with MrHoatzin, but I also make sure to acknowlegde the humanitarian boons of a mixed-economy. Our society has become so technological that a fall of the systems of power and methods of production would do far too much humanitarian damage. Regulation has become absolutely necessary now that we have so many weapons and chemicals and dams and other things that would be massive problems without central oversight.

Our mixed-economy religious plutarchy is incredibly violent, but I think we will make more progress by creating new systems that will one day make it obsolete. In other words, respect everyone, join a credit-union and if you employ anyone, form a co-op.

 

We don't have to destroy the good things about markets to remove positive-feedback-loop profiteering that has kept the parasitic capitalist class in power since the French Revolution. You are absolutely right that the correct way forward is to remove the power from the machine by empowering people to lead their own lives, grow their own food, etc—rather than taking the state head-on. I do fear that the state would eventually, as its power starts to diminish, start fighting coops and communes as it already does, with code violations and drug busts—but moreso and more belligerently.

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I do fear that the state would eventually, as its power starts to diminish, start fighting coops and communes as it already does, with code violations and drug busts—but moreso and more belligerently.

I agree, but the idea is that by that time the participants will have a clarity of their communal interest based off of their experiences working as a group. They will also have the relationships and power-structures established so they could potentially mobilize in order to defend their interests. I also think that we underestimate how much decentralizing the production of our basic needs could empower minorities.

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I'd love for her to read this article. Maybe your child is pulled over for an unrelated reason, the officer feels his holster snag on something, he assumes someone's going for his gun, and he has his partner hold your child down while he puts a gun to their temple and fires.

 

Jesus, the absolute faith some people have in legal authorities...

 

I just want to highlight this quote from that article: "In 129 years since police and fire commissions were created in the state of Wisconsin, we could not find a single ruling by a police department, an inquest or a police commission that a shooting was unjustified."

 

It's 20-fucking-14 and states are just getting around to deciding that police homicides should be independently investigated.

 

 

Pro-Darren Wilson protests are happening

Somehow I doubt this woman would be in favor of her own children being summarily executed for 'act[ing] in a suspicious manner'.

 

There were a dozen police watching, about half of which were watching from bicycles. Huh, weird how differently the police react to white people protesting. 

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2 hours and change before the curfew, the police give 5 seconds warning and then cut the lights, attack with tear gas, baton rounds, sonic cannon. Children and babies still in the crowd.

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Holy shit, the things the cops are saying to people recording directly to the net.

 

Got links? I'm watching the livestream that blambo linked above, but it's been mostly just the back of the police for awhile.

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This is completely unreal.

 

Feel free to forget that firing tear gas at civilians is AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION and they've been doing it for a week and just focus on everything else that's horrible!

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Got links? I'm watching the livestream that blambo linked above, but it's been mostly just the back of the police for awhile.

I'm watching the same thing. A cop literally yelled at the guy recording that if he "didn't get the fuck out" he was going to shoot him. All because the guy had a light on for recording purposes. It was crazy how loud the cop was screaming.

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I'm watching the same thing. A cop literally yelled at the guy recording that if he "didn't get the fuck out" he was going to shoot him. All because the guy had a light on for recording purposes. It was crazy how loud the cop was screaming.

 

AH, I just hit that.  The feed is really choppy for me, apparently every time it pauses, I'm slipping a little bit further back in time, so I'm not seeing it as quickly as other people.

 

Jesus, my heart started racing for that guy during that moment.  Just fuck.  Fuck fuck. 

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Man, I dunno. It sounds crazy generous to give all credit to the bureaucracy like that. All the bureaucracy did was relent to pressure from the people, and only after it exhausted all avenues of repression. And whatever racist interests got burned never really gave up their fight, they just abstracted it a bit so that they could market it better. Bureaucracy is just a means power uses to simplify conditions on the ground. It is kinda amoral and by design stupid, alienating. The congress is set up to minimize democracy. From the getgo, the saintly founding fathers put measures in place to curb anything resembling real democracy because they feared proper justice would be a thing the rabble might push for if they had access to power. And now with money=speech there is practically nothing people can do short of a double plus total general strike to get their voices heard. It is a dysfunctional system rapidly losing legitimacy.

 

Like you say bureaucracy isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, just the means by which change is implemented.  I know its easy to lose faith in the system due to the obstructionism of recent years, as well as the increased influence of the wealthy, but ultimately we already have the tools to solve those problems, just not the will or public motivation.  Just because the end result can be alienating and in places amoral doesn't mean it was necessarily designed to be that way.  There is no practical reason for the electoral college, for example, to exist any more, and I would hope the first step in addressing the concerns you raised is for the U.S. to realize we no longer live in the 1700s.  At some point politicians are going to have to admit the fact that the founding fathers did the best they could with what they had at the time.  A good starting point, but more needs to be done.  

 

Sorry for derailing a bit on this.

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Autopsy report: Michael Brown was shot six times, once in the eye.

 

Apparently the cop that murdered him is on paid leave because he set the Ferguson PD's bar high for excessive force. It's what they seem to be into in a perverse way.

 

Also reading on Twitter some reporters are getting arrested just for being present.

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The fact that the cop in that video was willing to threaten to shoot someone over turning off a light while obviously being recorded is about as clear an illustration of the utter lack of accountability as there could be.

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Reporter for MSNBC was threatened with mace, also apparently threatened while on air?  Haven't found the video for that yet. 

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Autopsy report: Michael Brown was shot six times, once in the eye.

 

Apparently the cop that murdered him is on paid leave because he set the Ferguson PD's bar high for excessive force. It's what they seem to be into in a perverse way.

 

Also reading on Twitter some reporters are getting arrested just for being present.

 

While there is no defending the actions of the police in this instance, it is standard practice basically across the nation for any officers who are involved in a shooting incident to be placed on leave, regardless of context. I believe they also need a psychological evaluation to be put back on patrol duty in a lot of jurisdictions but I'm less sure about that. Firing a gun at a human being is a traumatic experience.

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While there is no defending the actions of the police in this instance, it is standard practice basically across the nation for any officers who are involved in a shooting incident to be placed on leave, regardless of context. I believe they also need a psychological evaluation to be put back on patrol duty in a lot of jurisdictions but I'm less sure about that. Firing a gun at a human being is a traumatic experience.

Unless they're black apparently.

 

Terrible joke aside, this happens so damn much and there are so many repeat offenders. I'm sure some people can't handle shooting someone else, wounding or to death, but there's other people capable of just walking along in their life fine. Not every war vet needs therapy (well, we know of).

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The whole thing is corrupted from the ground up. Or really, from the top down. So many things are so thoroughly fucked and intertwined with everything else on this gay earth that patchwork reform in the margins is time-consuming and futile.

 

Yo, I know you're riled up, but don't resort to using homophobia to reinforce your point. Specially in a thread dedicated to archiving and discussing events revolving around an issue regarding the abusive, militaristic, and oppressive maltreatment of a minority group. Seriously, watch your fucking language. Surprised no one called you out on that shit.

 

VICE is also streaming the situation. 

 

 

We are not just witnessing history, but the repeating of history. The injustice perpetrated towards black, peaceful protesters in the 1960s comes back to haunts us. What's sad is that this isn't a sporadic thing: this is an event just waiting to occur after decades.

 

To be a person of color, to be prosecuted, to be gunned down, to be fucking dehumanized by those who EXIST to protect you. All of you white people got it real good, seriously. You all will never fucking experience this shit. Fucking never.

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I disagree. Patchwork reform that keeps police from shooting people with impunity is worthwhile. Holding police officers that murder people accountable doesn't solve every systemic problem in society but it should save innocent lives and is a worthwhile, reasonably achievable step towards further reform. Everything can't be fixed at once through the political process, but that's no reason not to fix what we can when we can.

 

Yeah but, there is an issue with presenting concrete reforms to short term problems as the be-all-end all solution. Look at the attention and spending focused on using military force in the war on drugs rather than observing and manipulating the environment that facilitates a drug economy, analyzing international trade policies that affect economic conditions elsewhere that contribute to crime in the US, and considering essential social and economic inequalities that are the root of our problems. The conversation for reform mostly ends when the focus is on immediate, short term problems. No politician has been elected because she has a ten year plan to slowly address problems, but plenty have been based on pacifying short term concerns.

 

EDIT: Though in this specific case police accountability is a long time coming...

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Cine, have you experienced this kind of treatment by police before?  If so would you mind sharing those experiences with us?  If you aren't comfortable doing so that is perfectly understandable.  To be honest, you're right.  I grew up in the bleach white MA suburbs where this kind of treatment wasn't even something I considered possible, but having moved down to Florida about a year ago I've been exposed to it personally in some brief moments but have never been the target of it.

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure he meant it in an archaic sense to heighten the irony of its use. Still probably more of a marginal case than I'd be comfortable with myself, but...

 

We are not just witnessing history, but the repeating of history. The injustice perpetrated towards black, peaceful protesters in the 1960s comes back to haunts us. What's sad is that this isn't a sporadic thing: this is an event just waiting to occur after decades.

 

To be a person of color, to be prosecuted, to be gunned down, to be fucking dehumanized by those who EXIST to protect you. All of you white people got it real good, seriously. You all will never fucking experience this shit. Fucking never.

 

History has shown that the powers that be are happy to gun down specific white people if they are foolish enough to throw in their lot with people of color. In my opinion, that makes the system even more fucked up. It's not just irrational hate against a group that's a majority in many parts of the US, it's an organized effort to keep them in their place, however brutal.

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Is anyone anticipating an easy retcon after things settle down, pinning the escalation of violence on the community? That way the story isn't "overzealous police makes a bad situation worse by jumping gun" but "accident sparks rioting and looting, police react accordingly"

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Is anyone anticipating an easy retcon after things settle down, pinning the escalation of violence on the community? That way the story isn't "overzealous police makes a bad situation worse by jumping gun" but "accident sparks rioting and looting, police react accordingly"

 

So far the Fox News coverage of Ferguson seems to already support this view.

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