I Had a Random Thought (About Video Games)

[SuperBiasedMan]

I think it might've been hard to port because they made it in some odd game engine, can't remember what.

 

But yeah, it could happen but there's a lot of absence of word on it so I wouldn't be surprised if it vaporises.

[Bjorn]

There are two games basically called Two Brothers that both fridge the mother in the opening scene?  Da fuq.

[SuperBiasedMan]

There are two games basically called Two Brothers that both fridge the mother in the opening scene?  Da fuq.

 

One is a brother's wife. But the effect is basically the same.

[Bjorn]

So Twitch Plays Dark Souls ended up actually beating the game, after spending a couple of days failing to figure out how to climb a ladder.  Apparently they had to change the way it was being played, turning it into a turn based affair.  Which now I'm watching Twitch Plays Dark Souls 2, and this is dreadfully boring.  It takes about 4 times as long to vote on a move than executing the move takes. 

[Ninety-Three]

So Twitch Plays Dark Souls ended up actually beating the game, after spending a couple of days failing to figure out how to climb a ladder.  Apparently they had to change the way it was being played, turning it into a turn based affair.  Which now I'm watching Twitch Plays Dark Souls 2, and this is dreadfully boring.  It takes about 4 times as long to vote on a move than executing the move takes. 

 

People made real-time edits of TPDS pretty quickly and those were interesting to watch. As much as it feels like cheating, I prefer the format to Twitch Plays Pokemon where it's 90% of the time is spent backtracking or menuing uselessly. TPP goes faster, but it doesn't actually get stuff done faster, and it's far easier to create a watchable edit of TPDS.

[N1njaSquirrel]

I know that someone on here plays a lot of visual novels, and I just wanted to post to say that Muv-Luv - widley considered one of the best visual novels - has got a kickstarter going on to get all 3 (and if the right stretch goals are met, all of the spin off) games translated and out on PC + vita. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/muvluv/muv-luv-a-pretty-sweet-visual-novel-series

 

I have forgotten who it is, but I hope whoever does like VN's sees this post and backs this. I've had this game sitting on my hard drive for years. Maybe the official release will get me to finally play it :3

[Griddlelol]

So I've been seeing a lot of chat about the pacing in MGSV. Many are saying it's awful, citing reasons why it's bad, and all I can do is think ...no, they're the exact reasons why it's got good pacing.

What are some examples of games with good pacing, and examples of games with poor pacing? Obviously it's subjective, but there must be consensus opinions on this kind of thing. I've just never heard people bring it up before in relation to games. Movies on the other hand is much more common.

Off the top of my head, Mass Effect 3 has awful pacing. The Wonderful 101 has great pacing. I'm making these judgements based off the "interest" or "excitement" curves I've seen for movies. It's different for games because deaths and checkpoints mess with that a lot. So I'm not sure if that's the right way to look at it.

[Trip Hazard]

Half Life has good pacing IN THE MAIN. There are some bits which are tedious as all hell, mind you. Same goes for the sequel, IMO.

 

Arkham Asylum has excellent pacing, I feel. The player doesn't feel overloaded or without any clue what to do next, and because it's a tighter, more linear experience than City or Knight (or that other one which I never played) the opportunities for the player to get massively sidetracked are reduced. Also, they didn't go completely overboard with riddler trophies: they were just a lovely incentive to explore, to make use of your tools to get around and into new places. Great stuff.

 

 

Dragon Age doesn't have good pacing, I don't think. After that first little village, it's like "here are three things we have to do before more events will happen". Makes it feel like nothing is happening in the world, it's all dictated by the player to do these tasks and unlock the next cutscene. The world is in complete turmoil but you don't ever really get the sense that it's all in danger from War and Hellspawn.

 

Will likely think of more at some point

[tberton]

Mass Effect 2 had great pacing. The loop between going on missions and then talking to people on the ship was really, really good in that game. Likewise, XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Within has really good pacing, for the same reason - the game mode switches before you get bored of what you're doing.

[Trip Hazard]

Man, I love Mass Effect 2. Is it time to replay the whole game again? Think it might be!

[N1njaSquirrel]

P4 is a good example of pacing, I think. It's slower than P3, and more linear to start off with, but it's all worth it for making you really care about the characters, situation and place. And it fucking works because I'm still talking and thinking about it today. PQ is a good game, made better by feeling like I'm back with the ol' gang again.

[Valorian Endymion]

On the subject of pace:

 

Gothic 2 - This game kind share a strange pace which many rpgs game of its time shared: Start a right note (with your friend make that dramatic speech in his tower how the evil guy is summoing all his forces) but quickly this is dropped out and you go half way or more of the game just doing sidequests, until the middle late of the game where the original plot is remembered and the game suddenly end a few chapters (maybe one or two) after. Keep in mind that this game isn´t like a bethesa game which is more a open world plataform for player to create their own histories instead (where such pace isn´t much the issue), Gothic was much more linear (you don´t even build your own character).

 

Spellforce 2: They tried to balance a between rts and rpg modes, but the rpg part where rather weak and boring due begin build over the rts part and therefore very limited, the result was that after a very good rts part you hit a sudden bucket of cold water in form of rpg part.

 

Way of the Samurai 4: While many games have have decision which branch the plot, the time between is rather imense, therefore, many people simple won´t play againt to see it. However, Way of the Samurai 4 plot is just around 4 days, this mean that the times between each decision is short which encourage experimentation and does give a sense or urgency.

 

Heroes of Might and Magic VI: For me, Heroes games where all about a rather slow pace, facing the enemy neutral armies around, collecting resources and waiting week to came to finish to recruit more forces. Later games however had this rather bizarre campaign and map design that kind force you to rush on, but they never explain or say or contextualize it, so you never really know if you should rush on or turtle. This is made worst in VI where many maps have scripted spawn armies that appear overtime and that can overwhelm you. Also keep in mind, Heroes games are often very number heavy, meaning that the one with most troops will  wins. This might lead to a scenario where you either lose because you take too much time or because you tried too early.

[Ninety-Three]

I had a random thought: Why do so many games have broken economies? The kind where you have so much money that you can always buy everything you want in every shop you find such that money isn't really a resource. I would think that it's easy to notice that the game works that way in development, and I would think most developers understand that's not the way things ought to work, so why does it keep happening?

[Trip Hazard]

God only knows. If any resource is in such plentiful supply that you never run out, why make it finite?

Games are dumb

Edit: "it wouldn't be realistic if you had an infinite amont, in this game about shooting dinosaurs in space in a parallel universe"

[clyde]

In single-player campaigns, I think it's just the reality of capitalism mixed with save-scrumming. Players reload losses and when they make gains, it allows them to afford more effective tools for making profit which then allows for more effective tools. There's also nothing competing for the currency-resource (in most cases).

In multi-player games, broken economies seem like a way to pander to all players in hopes that they will stay in the habit of playing that game.

Some games do economy well, Greed Corp, Wabash Cannonball, and Off-World Trading Company are the ones that come to mind; all of which seem rooted in multiplayer board-games.

[Bjorn]

I had a random thought: Why do so many games have broken economies? The kind where you have so much money that you can always buy everything you want in every shop you find such that money isn't really a resource. I would think that it's easy to notice that the game works that way in development, and I would think most developers understand that's not the way things ought to work, so why does it keep happening?

 

Because those games are power fantasies, and you don't run out of money for the same reason you don't run out of bullets. 

 

I get annoyed with the games that give you a skill like Barter (ala Fallout), but then it serves no purpose since money is equally plentiful with 100 Barter or 0 Barter. 

[Cordeos]

Because those games are power fantasies, and you don't run out of money for the same reason you don't run out of bullets. 

 

I get annoyed with the games that give you a skill like Barter (ala Fallout), but then it serves no purpose since money is equally plentiful with 100 Barter or 0 Barter. 

 

I have started using cheat engine to break games with annoying economic elements. Whenever I start a new game of Fallout or Elder Scrolls I give my self millions of gold to just skip all the barter BS.

[Trip Hazard]

I have started using cheat engine to break games with annoying economic elements. Whenever I start a new game of Fallout or Elder Scrolls I give my self millions of gold to just skip all the barter BS.

Why didn't I think of this. Bethesda, nobody wants to engage with your boring, static economy

[Griddlelol]

Oh yeah, P4 has great pacing unless you play on hard, then it's got possibly the worst pacing out of any game I've ever played. Glad I deleted that file and started over on easy. Turned from one of the worst experiences to one of the best.

I don't remember much about ME2, I remember enjoying it at the time, I just remember way more from ME. I never completed Half Life 2 (I got bored, it's not as great as everyone made out). I also haven't played any of those games you mentioned Valorian.

While I love Xcom, I think that had poor pacing, the tension just keeps ramping and ramping culminating in some crazy stress levels. Maybe that's my personal failing than the design.

[Patrick R]

So I've been seeing a lot of chat about the pacing in MGSV. Many are saying it's awful, citing reasons why it's bad, and all I can do is think ...no, they're the exact reasons why it's got good pacing.

What are some examples of games with good pacing, and examples of games with poor pacing? Obviously it's subjective, but there must be consensus opinions on this kind of thing. I've just never heard people bring it up before in relation to games. Movies on the other hand is much more common.

Off the top of my head, Mass Effect 3 has awful pacing. The Wonderful 101 has great pacing. I'm making these judgements based off the "interest" or "excitement" curves I've seen for movies. It's different for games because deaths and checkpoints mess with that a lot. So I'm not sure if that's the right way to look at it.

 

To go back to this, the first thing that always pops into my head in terms of pacing is Portal. Not just the total game length, or how much time you spend on individual puzzles, but the way mechanics build on each other as your dread of GLaDOS builds, as the arc of your character goes from doing what you're told to finding hidden spaces GLaDOS didn't intend for you to find, to disobeying her to destroying her. I find all the aspects of that game dovetail into one another beautifully, which creates a perfectly paced story.

 

I think the more you strip out story and player choice the better the pacing gets, which is probably why so many Valve games feel so well-paced. Technically speaking, I think one could argue that Tetris is "objectively" a perfectly paced game. Most arcade games are as well, due to their simplicity. How would you improve the pace of Ms. Pac-Man?

[Griddlelol]

Oh shit, the original portal was fantastic with that. I thought portal 2 went wrong there and ended up out staying its welcome.

I feel like a lot of my favourite "open world" games have great pacing. Wind Waker is utterly brilliant until the infamous triforce quest, but I even think that fits well with the pacing since it gives you a break before the hardest dungeon and the final boss.

[Ninety-Three]

While I love Xcom, I think that had poor pacing, the tension just keeps ramping and ramping culminating in some crazy stress levels. Maybe that's my personal failing than the design.

 

I haven't played much XCOM (the Firaxis one), but I enjoy the pacing in both X-COM (original) and Xenonauts (modern spiritual successor). If you're scouting and finding no aliens, tension mounts as you adjust your mental model and the density of aliens in the remaining unexplored area climbs. If it gets too dense, you can get very methodical and slow down because you're certain there will be some aliens in this next building. If you find lots of aliens early, then you get a big fight followed by a sweep of the remaining area which you know is mostly empty, so you can go faster, or you can go slow and feel super safe. I can see how XCOM would mess up that pacing with its weird "aliens are static until scouted" thing which actively punishes scouting.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Played Timesplitters 2 on a emulator with my brother tonight. It's still so fun, it just engages me much more than other non TF2 shooters have. I love the silly fun characters, settings and modes. No other can say one of their match modes is based on monkeys.

Wish there was a modern online version but I bet it would tank for being "poorly balanced".

[Trip Hazard]

It should be illegal how much fun TS2 is! Played it for dozens of hours solo and more than that with my mates and we all agree that it's defo one of the best FPS games ever.

[tberton]

While I love Xcom, I think that had poor pacing, the tension just keeps ramping and ramping culminating in some crazy stress levels. Maybe that's my personal failing than the design.

 

My comment about the XCOM pacing has more to do with the moment-to-moment pacing than over the course of the game. I think the back and forth between the tactical layer and the strategic is brilliant. Each time I leave one I'm exciting to enter the other and neither ever feels boring. I don't think of the mounting tension as a pacing issue necessarily - that's more tonal, I think.