Bloodborne (Dark Souls 2 successor (Dark Souls successor (Demon's Souls successor)))

[Cbirdsong]

Wow Rom was easy... Maybe I was over-leveled? 

 

 

What level is that?

[Twig]

I wanna say 65-70. I definitely hit 65 yesterday when fighting Logarius but I don't remember if I leveled up past that or not.

[natellite]

I beat the game!!!!! I never beat games. Feels good.

[Griddlelol]

Rom is easily my lest favourite boss in the game, and the alien mushroom closely following. With martyr and father Gazza as my favourites. They're both parry-able bosses, but they both made me think about far more things than their swings and parry timing. Gazza not only switches up his weapons and abilities but you've also got to play extremely close attention to the grave stones. I died more times because of grave stones blocking my dodges in that fight than anything else.

The martyr will slash or use spells which requires constant decisions on whether to dodge or parry, plus I didn't know until the second time you fight him you can destroy his shooting sword magic totem. Oh! Also that strike where he flies through the air to hit you is incredibly satisfying to parry. I just felt like a badass when I managed that.

[eot]

I vote that we call him Marlo

[N1njaSquirrel]

I really liked Rom. He was suitably creepy at first, and then becomes amusing when he flails around. Also it was the only boss fight (so far) where you initiate the battle, which is interesting, I think.

 

I also really liked The One Reborn, as it was both disgusting and was an interesting fight.

[Bjorn]

I really liked the blue thing fight, mostly for the emotional/story impact of it.

 

 

Until that point, you've only seen those guys in a couple of places, Iosefka's clinic and the Forgotten Woods, and they are completely alien.  The clinic makes you think that the false Iosefkaj is making them, but then the field of alien plants reveals that something entirely different is going on.  Plus this is taking place on the second floor of the Grand Cathedral.  Aliens live in the attic of the house of god. 

 

 

I beat the game!!!!! I never beat games. Feels good.

 

\[T]/

[Griddlelol]

I'm talking about a purely game play perspective. Rom is an interesting fight when it comes to narrative. Although he's not alone in being the only boss who isn't hostile immediately

Gehman won't fight until you tell him to piss off.

Although, with the blue guys, it made zero sense to me. I probably missed something, but have literally no clue what those guys have to do with anything. Seems so out of place in a story about people turning into beasts and old gods giving power through blood.

[Bjorn]

I'm talking about a purely game play perspective. Rom is an interesting fight when it comes to narrative. Although he's not alone in being the only boss who isn't hostile immediately

Gehman won't fight until you tell him to piss off.

Although, with the blue guys, it made zero sense to me. I probably missed something, but have literally no clue what those guys have to do with anything. Seems so out of place in a story about people turning into beasts and old gods giving power through blood.

 

For the fight itself...

 

it's kind of like the rat fight in DkS2 where the real boss is hidden amongst all the regular rats, only then it hulks out on you.  I thought the fight was fine.  There wasn't anything particularly great about it, but neither was there anything poor about it either.

 

Lore-wise, my thought is that the Celestials are the tools used to harvest blood from and communicate with Ebrietas.  She is the "daughter of the cosmos" and the boss is the Celestial Emissary.  At first I thought that meant it was an emissary from space, but I think it's the other way around.   It's an emissary to the cosmos.  Regular humans will be driven mad or to beasthood by contact with Ebrietas, but her blood is the power behind the church.  They need it. 

 

Something I literally just realized is that the small celestials are absolutely human made.  The students in the lecture hall are the failed attempts at making the first celestials.  They are the only thing in the game that remotely share any features with the celestials.  It might also be that Byrgenworth was trying to take over the church, since they split a long time ago, but needed something to use to approach Ebrietas.  The Choir had decades or centuries of experience working with her at that point.  It's implied that the False Iosefka is a member of the Choir (I think?), so her doing experiments to make celestials is logical if she's trying to reverse engineer the work of Byrgenworth to understand the Emissary. 

[eot]

I'm talking about a purely game play perspective. Rom is an interesting fight when it comes to narrative. Although he's not alone in being the only boss who isn't hostile immediately

Gehman won't fight until you tell him to piss off.

Although, with the blue guys, it made zero sense to me. I probably missed something, but have literally no clue what those guys have to do with anything. Seems so out of place in a story about people turning into beasts and old gods giving power through blood.

Ebrietas is also passive until you attack her.

Anyway, I kinda like the Rom fight but I understand why people don't. I thought it sucked on my first playthrough too.

[Griddlelol]

Yeah it's personal preference of course, I just found it tedious to dispatch the adds. However it'd be a stupidly easy boss without them. I have issues with bosses that I can't get back in and fight with immediately. It doesn't matter if it's an unskippable cut scene or a bunch of adds I have to slowly kill. It drives me nuts.

I don't get why the choir would be making and housing the human->alien guys. Should they not just destroy the results?

Now I'm a bit confused...

I expect that the old gods are not aliens but different dimensional beings. Similar to the Christian interpretation of God. A being that is not in our world but can influence it. with the cosmos being the heaven/other plane of existence.

I guess I don't really understand whether the celestial emmissary is a being in between the old gods and humans, with all the little fungus guys being members of the choir, or if it's something completely different.

On a tangent, the choir/byrgenworth followers cover their eyes to see inwards, yet some hunters also cover their eyes...but not all. Is this suggesting that some hunters are from that order and have some insight into the old gods, or is it unrelated? As our hunter seems to be completely separate from all the factions, but is our hunter the exception rather than the rule?

[Bjorn]

Yeah it's personal preference of course, I just found it tedious to dispatch the adds. However it'd be a stupidly easy boss without them. I have issues with bosses that I can't get back in and fight with immediately. It doesn't matter if it's an unskippable cut scene or a bunch of adds I have to slowly kill. It drives me nuts.

I don't get why the choir would be making and housing the human->alien guys. Should they not just destroy the results?

Now I'm a bit confused...

I expect that the old gods are not aliens but different dimensional beings. Similar to the Christian interpretation of God. A being that is not in our world but can influence it. with the cosmos being the heaven/other plane of existence.

I guess I don't really understand whether the celestial emmissary is a being in between the old gods and humans, with all the little fungus guys being members of the choir, or if it's something completely different.

On a tangent, the choir/byrgenworth followers cover their eyes to see inwards, yet some hunters also cover their eyes...but not all. Is this suggesting that some hunters are from that order and have some insight into the old gods, or is it unrelated? As our hunter seems to be completely separate from all the factions, but is our hunter the exception rather than the rule?

 

I got curious and read some other fan theories, something I hadn't done yet.  Another theory is that...

 

the little celestials are actually being farmed for their blood.  The Blue Elixir in particular is almost certainly from them.

 

"Dubious liquid medicine used in strange experiments conducted by high ministers of the Healing Church.

A type of anesthetic that numbs the brain.

Hunters, able to retain consciousness by force of will, make use of a secondary effect of the medicine, which dilutes their presence while standing still."

 

I do think that many of the people you encounter with eye coverings are either members of the church, or have some other relationship with it.  Each faction seems to have some physical way they believe improves their ability to see or communicate with the Old Ones.  Mensis has their head cages.  The Church and Byrgenworth both use coverings for the eyes, which something hints that the Church actually inherited the habit of the eye coverings directly from Willem. The Vilebloods have some crazy helmet.  And the Executions are eventually revealed to have a crazy cone helmet, which seems way to impractical to have been designed from a strictly functional element.  And that fits with the geometric theme of the Make Contact gesture. 

 

The Emissary is fascinating because it is so hard to explain. 

[eot]

I do think that many of the people you encounter with eye coverings are either members of the church, or have some other relationship with it.  Each faction seems to have some physical way they believe improves their ability to see or communicate with the Old Ones.  Mensis has their head cages.  The Church and Byrgenworth both use coverings for the eyes, which something hints that the Church actually inherited the habit of the eye coverings directly from Willem.

 

The Emissary is fascinating because it is so hard to explain. 

That goes for the Witches too, at first I thought they had growths on them but they're actually covered in eyes. If you look at the dead horses in that area you'll see that their eyes are gouged out.

[Bjorn]

That goes for the Witches too, at first I thought they had growths on them but they're actually covered in eyes. If you look at the dead horses in that area you'll see that their eyes are gouged out.

 

Yeah, and I actually just edited in two other examples I thought of to my spoiler as well, not as clear as that one or the first two, but still, odd and not really functional head coverings. 

[Twig]

Yeah it's personal preference of course, I just found it tedious to dispatch the adds.

I just didn't even bother doing that! Made the second attempt both easier and much much faster.

 

btw the executioner helm is hilarious and i'm never taking it off again

[Korax]

As far as hunters missing eyes, it may be more than symbolic. Some of the Hintertomb Chalice rituals require a Bloodshot Eyeball, whose description reads (emphasis mine):

 

Material used in a Holy Chalice rite.

An exquisite eyeball removed quickly after death, or perhaps even before. Used to unlock the seal of the old labyrinth hintertombs.

 

I'm pretty sure the bandages covering the eyes of the blood minister in the game's opening were stained with blood.

 

Eyes themselves seem to be representative of cosmic knowledge. The Umbilical Cords each have a slightly different description, one of them says

 

Provost Willem sought the Cord in order to elevate his being and thoughts to those of a Great One, by lining his brain with eyes.

 

and then they all end with

 

Use to gain Insight and, so they say, eyes on the inside, although no one remembers what that truly entails.

 

The Cords also look like they have vestigial eyes on them, as well.

 

In the Nightmare of Mensis, you start seeing little pustules on the walls that appear at first to be some sort of fungal growth or even egg sacs (especially with all the spiders in the area), but if you get to the giant frenzy-blasting brain's area, they become eyes that seem to have grown from the surfaces. The brain itself drops a Living String if you kill it, with the description

 

The immense brain that Mensis retrieved from the nightmare was indeed lined with eyes on the inside, but they were of an evil sort, and the brain itself was terrible rotten.

 

I'm curious to know if there are any eyes that haven't ended up being "evil."

[Bjorn]

So I'm just mulling shit over as I work and had a thought about the Doll

 

The Doll might actually be the weirdest, most out of place entity in the game, way weirder than the Celestial Emissary.  She's a sentient, animate Doll who trades you power for blood.  Nothing (that I know of) in the game discusses her origin, creation or history.  Even the doll clothes and comb aren't very illuminating.  You have to have 1 insight in order to interact with her.  She's the very first thing that changes as you make the descent into understanding the nightmare you exist in.  The Doll, unchanged, is present in every ending. 

 

Gerhman is a slave to the Moon Presence.  He ultimately has no agency in what's happening.  The Moon Presence's goal seems to mostly be the ability to manifest at all, which required the killing of Rom, who was somehow preventing the Presence from returning.  It probably desires to return in order to create a child. 

 

The only other entity that might profit from the Hunt is the Doll.  She accumulates uncounted amounts of blood from her hunters.  She benefits, somehow, from the Hunt.  I think she's a Great One.  And she might be Oedon.  Oedon is referred to as the formless one.  One of the runes reads:

 

"A secret symbol left by Caryll, runesmith of Byrgenwerth.

The Great One Oedon, lacking form, exists only in voice, and is symbolized by this rune. Those who memorize it enjoy a larger supply of Quicksilver Bullets.

Human or no, the oozing blood is a medium of the highest grade, and the essence of the formless Great One, Oedon. Both Oedon, and his inadvertent worshippers, surreptitiously seek the precious blood."

 

I think the Doll might be Oedon's temporary container, the vessel it speaks through, as it surreptitiously seeks the precious blood. 

[JonCole]

So I'm just mulling shit over as I work and had a thought about the Doll

 

I haven't beaten the game or really paid extremely close attention to lore discussions, but how does the Hunter's Dream relate to the "real" world? The reason I ask is because there are two Dolls, one abandoned and unconscious in the Old Workshop and one alive that does the blood stuff. I was trying to figure out what that means, but I don't have much idea and I'm curious what you think based on these thoughts.

[Bjorn]

I haven't beaten the game or really paid extremely close attention to lore discussions, but how does the Hunter's Dream relate to the "real" world? The reason I ask is because there are two Dolls, one abandoned and unconscious in the Old Workshop and one alive that does the blood stuff. I was trying to figure out what that means, but I don't have much idea and I'm curious what you think based on these thoughts.

 

I think there are at least 3 (and maybe 4) realities, and it's difficult to parse what's real, fantasy, other dimension, and how each of these can affect each other.  The Hunter's Dream appears to be a dream within a dream (Inception!), or a pocket dimension, or perhaps it exists within the mind of Oedon.  It's modeled after the old Church Workshop, because it is intended to be a base for a new Hunt.  I think the Doll in the abandoned Workshp is probably a real thing, created by a craftsman, for reasons we may not fully understand.  Perhaps as a toy, or as a memorial to a lost love one, or as an object of worship (the clothes' descriptions point towards one of the second two).  In the Hunter's Dream, it's copied as it existed in the real world, probably because it is so non-threatening.  It's a wonderful tool of manipulation.  That Rune description also says that Oedon's worshipers are "inadvertent", in that they did not intend on becoming worshipers of the creature.  If the Doll is Oedon, then you as the hunter are an inadvertent worshiper, kneeling before her and making offerings on a regular basis. 

 

The only time Gerhman mentions the Doll, he whispers about her, in a super creepy way.  It had a creepy, almost sexual overtone to it the first time I heard it.  But it might also have been fear. 

[Griddlelol]

On the doll

I thought its origins were linked to Gerhman as you find the exact same doll in the abandoned workshop that looks the same as the hunter's dream. To me the hunter's dream is the manifestation of Gerhman's aims - he can craft hunters for the cycle of continual hunting. Making them stronger and teaching them the ways of the hunt. Or more likely manipulating them in hunting and obeying the moon presence. Unfortunately, it's also his prison as he is entirely dependent on the moon presence as he too tried to use the umbilical chord.

I'm not really sure what exactly the doll is, but it seems more like a tool, which is implied to be either morally wrong or dangerous (as Gerhman says you can you it if you really want to), rather than a god itself. I mean, does the doll actually receive the blood echos, or is the hunter drawing power from the blood echos with the help of the doll? It does say something along the lines of let me channel them to strengthen you.

I'm not sure if it's ever explained, but why does our hunter go to the city? I assumed it was in search of the chalice dungeons and treasure, but once they became a hunter, other things became a priority. They certainly don't dress like a warrior or come equipped ready for a fight.

I really enjoy the theme of introspection and covering one's eyes to learn more about the unseen world, gaining comprehension beyond the physical realm.

I have so many ideas and questions, but I don't want to dump them all immediately or nothing will ever be resolved in my head.

[eot]

On the doll

I have so many ideas and questions, but I don't want to dump them all immediately or nothing will ever be resolved in my head.

I think you came there to go to Cainhurst, that's why you find the invitation with your name on it. Personally I don't think you were a hunter to begin with. Maybe the medical procedure was involuntary. No idea what the unspoken question regarding Paleblood is about or why your character would know to ask it (if there even was a question, I mean, we never hear it).

[Bjorn]

On the doll

I thought its origins were linked to Gerhman as you find the exact same doll in the abandoned workshop that looks the same as the hunter's dream. To me the hunter's dream is the manifestation of Gerhman's aims - he can craft hunters for the cycle of continual hunting. Making them stronger and teaching them the ways of the hunt. Or more likely manipulating them in hunting and obeying the moon presence. Unfortunately, it's also his prison as he is entirely dependent on the moon presence as he too tried to use the umbilical chord.

I'm not really sure what exactly the doll is, but it seems more like a tool, which is implied to be either morally wrong or dangerous (as Gerhman says you can you it if you really want to), rather than a god itself. I mean, does the doll actually receive the blood echos, or is the hunter drawing power from the blood echos with the help of the doll? It does say something along the lines of let me channel them to strengthen you.

I'm not sure if it's ever explained, but why does our hunter go to the city? I assumed it was in search of the chalice dungeons and treasure, but once they became a hunter, other things became a priority. They certainly don't dress like a warrior or come equipped ready for a fight.

I really enjoy the theme of introspection and covering one's eyes to learn more about the unseen world, gaining comprehension beyond the physical realm.

I have so many ideas and questions, but I don't want to dump them all immediately or nothing will ever be resolved in my head.

 

I think you're actually right that the doll is binding the blood echoes to you, and not receiving them herself. 

 

If we assume the game starts in the "real" Yarnham that all people can experience, then there are all sorts of reasons you might have come there.  You might be sick, and came to get treated with the legendary blood treatments of Yarnham.  But it's definitely a far more mysterious beginning than any of the Souls games, where at least some very basic reason was given for your presence. 

[Mangela Lansbury]

I'm very bad at this game, but it's really fun! I can't kill Vicar Amelia at all, and the witch whatever just confuses me (but I've only tried her once) so I explored some more tonight. Had to put it down tonight after I tried to open a door and was killed by a giant... Thing???

[natellite]

Yeah. That'll happen. 

[Griddlelol]

I think you came there to go to Cainhurst, that's why you find the invitation with your name on it. Personally I don't think you were a hunter to begin with. Maybe the medical procedure was involuntary. No idea what the unspoken question regarding Paleblood is about or why your character would know to ask it (if there even was a question, I mean, we never hear it).

I'm not sure you aimed to go to Cainhurst, as the item description reads "bafflingly it is addressed to you" which suggests that you had no prior knowledge of the invitation or that you'd be expected there.

I do agree that the player was not a hunter to begin with. The hunter's dream seems to be where all the previous hunters in the world have come from.

The doll States that many hunters have been through there and it's implied they all died at Gerhman's hands hence all the grave stones. Plus if you let Gerhman kill you, you awaken back in Yarnham. After seeing that ending I assumed that it's the reasons why all the hunters are hostile. They have all seen that Gerhman manipulated them and now are trying to stop his new hunter. I believe there's something that Eileen says about how the player is still dreaming, which I guess means she previously submitted to Gerhman.

I find it interesting that some hunters attack on sight, while others will cooperate with you or at least let you help them in some way.