Hipsters

[clyde]

We like them, right?

[Gormongous]

I'm kind of part of the hipster backlash backlash. For me, it used to refer to part of the cultural vanguard, then to a special breed of hypocritical elitism, and now back around to someone who's in a bit deeper than might be understandable in an obscure topic.

[clyde]

I think that "hipster" has a great heritage. I'm proud to be a hipster.

[Ucantalas]

I don't even know what hipster is supposed to mean anymore.

[clyde]

I think that the contemporary use of the term has been exclusively as a pejorative. This is where claims such as "No one self-ascribes as a hipster" come from. Lately, it's been used for no other purpose but to demean others and simultaneously claim that they are the group who is being exclusive and snobbish. To me, this is a waste of a term with an awesome history. Why let the squares define what "hipster" is? That's like letting people who don't like jazz decide what people who listen to jazz should be called! The frequent use of the word "like" didn't come from valley-girls (though if it did, that would be just as cool), it came from existential doubts that expressed themselves inherently in conversation.
fixed the link
How cool is that?

[Nachimir]

It's a continuously moving target. I've been in several different social circles who define members of the others as hipsters, but not themselves, and are in turn defined that way by others. It's become a nothing word to me, as snarling and simultaneously pointless as someone who can be bothered to comment "meh" on something.

 

It's a word used to castigate the young and the different when it can't be done on the basis of class or subculture. On that basis, I generally like hipsters because fuck conservatism

[Gormongous]

It's a word used to castigate the young and the different when it can't be done on the basis of class or subculture.

 

Looking at the etymology, "hippie" first came into use as a diminutive form of "hipster". The jazz-era hipsters of the 1940s labelled the rock-era hippies of the 1960s as inferior versions of themselves, but look who won that culture war. The wheel keeps turning, right? I'm sure it'll keep turning with "hipsters" today.

[SecretAsianMan]

I dislike the word hipster because it's become so overused and muddled that it has no meaning anymore because everything is hipster in the right context.  As for people who identify as hipsters, I don't really care either.  It says nothing to me about who they are apart from caring enough to care about this thing that I don't care about.  Maybe that makes me a hipster.  Maybe not.  I frankly don't care because it's not going to change my opinion on what I like or don't like so it's a meaningless phrase to me.

 

This is not a slight against clyde or anyone else really.  I just think the whole thing is dumb.

[Gormongous]

I just think the whole thing is dumb.

 

I agree that it is usually dumb because most conversations about hipsters happen between two groups that could easily self-identify as hipsters: people who don't want to admit they like an obscure thing more than is socially acceptable and people who want to make sure all words are used as correctly as possible in casual conversation.  The former group probably just needs to get over themselves, but the latter group is the one I really can't stand. I actually look forward to the grim future of language/games that they're always prophesying, where all words mean nothing anymore, because at least then I won't be able to understand their pedantic screeds.

[Twig]

I dislike the word hipster because it's become so overused and muddled that it has no meaning anymore because everything is hipster in the right context. 

So every word, then!

 

I really hate the idea that a word can become "overused". If a word has meaning for someone, and that meaning is important to them (as it clearly is to clyde), then why do other people get to decide that the word is overused and therefore worthless?

 

Also since my post in the episode thread was the last post on the page and immediately usurped by some dumb hipster:

 

 

This came up pretty recently on these forums in some thread, but... I grew up being called a nerd. People meant it as an insult. It's one of the few words that never bothered me. I am a nerd, and I'm perfectly okay with that. Hell, I even take a little bit of pride in that. It might be an insult for some, but for me it's a matter of identity. Why can't "hipster" be the same way? I call my friends nerds all the time, and I definitely don't mean it pejoratively. It's almost a term of friendship-endearment for me!

I also since remembered that "some thread" was the feminism thread, when we discussed the merits of reclaiming a word. So, I guess that's a thing, I dunno.

[TheLastBaron]

So every word, then!

 

I really hate the idea that a word can become "overused". If a word has meaning for someone, and that meaning is important to them (as it clearly is to clyde), then why do other people get to decide that the word is overused and therefore worthless?

 

Also since my post in the episode thread was the last post on the page and immediately usurped by some dumb hipster:

 

 

I also since remembered that "some thread" was the feminism thread, when we discussed the merits of reclaiming a word. So, I guess that's a thing, I dunno.

His point wasn't just that the word is used too much, it's that it's used so much that it doesn't have any meaning.  I don't have any strong feelings about the word as it isn't something I hear very much among the people I talk to, but when I do hear it I pretty much don't know what it's supposed to mean without a lot of context given. 

[SecretAsianMan]

So every word, then!

 

I really hate the idea that a word can become "overused". If a word has meaning for someone, and that meaning is important to them (as it clearly is to clyde), then why do other people get to decide that the word is overused and therefore worthless?

 

There are many, many words I hate for this reason, so yes basically all words are hated by me.  

 

As for people the word hipster has meaning to, then fine it has meaning for them.  I'm not saying it shouldn't.  I'm saying I think the word is overused and worthless to me.  To me it's a completely meaningless thing, to clyde it's not.  That's perfectly fine.  I'm not saying it makes either of us better than the other.  It's an entirely personal opinion.  Hearing someone call themselves a hipster isn't going to make me think better or worse of them.  I just don't think it does anything to actually describe them to me.

[Twig]

His point wasn't just that the word is used too much, it's that it's used so much that it doesn't have any meaning.  I don't have any strong feelings about the word as it isn't something I hear very much among the people I talk to, but when I do hear it I pretty much don't know what it's supposed to mean without a lot of context given. 

I know, and I was responding according to that knowledge!

 

There are many, many words I hate for this reason, so yes basically all words are hated by me.  

 

As for people the word hipster has meaning to, then fine it has meaning for them.  I'm not saying it shouldn't.  I'm saying I think the word is overused and worthless to me.  To me it's a completely meaningless thing, to clyde it's not.  That's perfectly fine.  I'm not saying it makes either of us better than the other.  It's an entirely personal opinion.  Hearing someone call themselves a hipster isn't going to make me think better or worse of them.  I just don't think it does anything to actually describe them to me.

 

I had a bunch of other things typed here before I realized they'd all just be misconstrued to imply things I didn't mean, and I couldn't think of how to say them without doing that, so I'll just leave it at this curt, worthless pair of statements: I completely understand what you're saying. I just don't empathize with your position.

 

U:

[clyde]

For me, "hipster"  does have a connotation of ascribing value to knowing what is cool before other people do. I think that some people are offended by the enjoyment of this aspect. I can see why it would be off-putting for someone to use evidence that they knew about something first as some tool to claim superiority, but I wonder how often that is actually what happens. In my case, I do get additional excitement about realizing that I sincerely enjoyed something before many other people did, or even in spite of their derision. That doesn't keep me from enjoying popular art and past-times but I start out by assuming that I will not enjoy popular art and have to make effort towards giving it a chance. I think this is a hipster quality, common amongst hipsters.

As a self-identified hipster, here are two situations I find myself in:

- Sometimes, I hold back information that I have an intimate knowledge of some piece of art because it might stop the other person from telling me about their enjoyment of it. Also, I am concerned that they will see my experience as a name-drop whose purpose is to get some sort of upper-hand in our interaction.

-Sometimes I find myself having to defend a popular piece of art in terms that conflict with the popular rationale for why it is good. This puts me in a position where I am conscious that someone may think I am a "hipster" (in the pejorative sense) claiming that I even if I enjoy a popular piece of art, I have to create a new reason for enjoying it in order to distance myself from a majority. This claim puts my particular criticism of the art in an especially patronizing light that takes much more effort to get other people to consider. I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to enlighten y'all about what it's like to be a hipster.

[mikemariano]

I'm just here for hipster glasses on Disney princesses.

[SecretAsianMan]

 had a bunch of other things typed here before I realized they'd all just be misconstrued to imply things I didn't mean, and I couldn't think of how to say them without doing that, so I'll just leave it at this curt, worthless pair of statements: I completely understand what you're saying. I just don't empathize with your position.

 

Fair enough.  I certainly don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do.  My previous statements probably came off with more animosity than I actually have, none was intended.

[RubixsQube]

For me, "hipster"  does have a connotation of ascribing value to knowing what is cool before other people do. I think that some people are offended by the enjoyment of this aspect. I can see why it would be off-putting for someone to use evidence that they knew about something first as some tool to claim superiority, but I wonder how often that is actually what happens. In my case, I do get additional excitement about realizing that I sincerely enjoyed something before many other people did, or even in spite of their derision. That doesn't keep me from enjoying popular art and past-times but I start out by assuming that I will not enjoy popular art and have to make effort towards giving it a chance. I think this is a hipster quality, common amongst hipsters.

As a self-identified hipster, here are two situations I find myself in:

- Sometimes, I hold back information that I have an intimate knowledge of some piece of art because it might stop the other person from telling me about their enjoyment of it. Also, I am concerned that they will see my experience as a name-drop whose purpose is to get some sort of upper-hand in our interaction.

-Sometimes I find myself having to defend a popular piece of art in terms that conflict with the popular rationale for why it is good. This puts me in a position where I am conscious that someone may think I am a "hipster" (in the pejorative sense) claiming that I even if I enjoy a popular piece of art, I have to create a new reason for enjoying it in order to distance myself from a majority. This claim puts my particular criticism of the art in an especially patronizing light that takes much more effort to get other people to consider. I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to enlighten y'all about what it's like to be a hipster.

 

Yeesh. Dude! I'd really, really try to work on your "excitement" reaction upon realizing you enjoyed something before someone else. That's a real off-putting attitude to have for anyone. There's one million reasons why someone may not have heard of a band you particularly enjoy. Combined with the fact that you actively "start out by assuming [you] will not enjoy popular art", and you sound like a bundle of fun. The coolest thing a person can do is stop caring about looking cool.

 

If someone starts to tell me about a piece of art I already have some knowledge of, I've started trying to just listen to them. We should all be in the business of supporting other people's enthusiasm, even if you don't share their particular opinion. Unless someone posts up for a high-five over mass genocide, I don't want to rain on someone's parade if they happen to be a big fan of some "popular art." It's fun, sometimes, to hear people talk about things you aren't big into, too. This is partially why I listen to Idle Thumbs! Because god damn, it's just fun to listen to people talk about things because they like them.

 

Trying to distance yourself from the majority is such a weird thing to attempt. Just like the damn things you like, and share this with people, and listen and reflect the enthusiasm other people give to you, even if it's about how much they love Big Bang Theory. 

[clyde]

Yeesh. Dude! I'd really, really try to work on your "excitement" reaction upon realizing you enjoyed something before someone else. That's a real off-putting attitude to have for anyone. There's one million reasons why someone may not have heard of a band you particularly enjoy. Combined with the fact that you actively "start out by assuming [you] will not enjoy popular art", and you sound like a bundle of fun. The coolest thing a person can do is stop caring about looking cool.

 

Let me try to put in in slightly less offensive terms; I enjoy watching things I enjoy become successful. 

 

As far as my initial mistrust of popular art, I think mainstream art has a conditioning effect that makes it more difficult to appreciate things that are not famous. A really obvious version of this is production standards. The more I watch television or movies with huge budgets, the more difficult it is for me to watch high school students perform plays. It's a weird thing. It's not that I can't manage my expectations at all, but certain qualities seem to have a way of making other options seem obsolete. Pacing is a big one. Watching Daguerreotypes  was difficult the first time because it felt slow. Why did it feel slow? I believe that it felt slow because one of the tendencies that isn't even questioned in popular movies is an incredibly fast pace, and the necessity of narratives rather than atmospheres and perspectives. You may be different than I, but the overabundance of certain practices conditions my expectations and perspectives to make some things more enjoyable than others. I have found that having a skepticism about popular art has helped me battle this and sincerely get excited about... maybe three or so pieces of children's art of 30. Most kid art is pretty shitty, it's like they aren't even trying.

 

And I disagree that the coolest thing a person can do is stop trying to look cool. I think that the coolest thing a person can do is simultaneously become more compassionate and more capable. It doesn't matter to me if they do it in order to look cool.

[Badfinger]

The point in time when you start liking something relative to when it started existing has no intrinsic value.

 

Kid's art is cool because it's kids translating the things in their head out into the world.

[clyde]

The point in time when you start liking something relative to when it started existing has no intrinsic value.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I like the antiquity of some things and the newness of others.

 

 

 

Kid's art is cool because it's kids translating the things in their head out into the world.

I think most of it sucks. Like I said, it's like they aren't even trying. Here is a great example of what being a hipster is like. I like some kid art, not all of it. 

 

 

edit: I realized that you might be saying that the time I started liking something relevant to the time other people started liking something has no intrinsic value. I think what I enjoy about there being a large difference is that sometimes I feel like Indiana Jones finding a piece of treasure to show to other people; I like that feeling. Also, when I like something before it becomes popular, I don't question whether or not I just like it because other people like it (as much). It's easier for me to see whether or not I like its intrinsic qualities. And then when it becomes popular, it feels like I guessed how many jelly-beans were in the jar and I got it right. 

There are also times I enjoy being in the zeitgeist. Video-games for example. I want to be part of the discussion when a new game comes out. I would feel the same way about old games, if there was active discussion about old games. 

[Badfinger]

I'm not really sure what you mean. I like the antiquity of some things and the newness of others.

 

 

 

I think most of it sucks. Like I said, it's like they aren't even trying. Here is a great example of what being a hipster is like. I like some kid art, not all of it. 

 

 

edit: I realized that you might be saying that the time I started liking something relevant to the time other people started liking something has no intrinsic value. I think what I enjoy about there being a large difference is that sometimes I feel like Indiana Jones finding a piece of treasure to show to other people; I like that feeling. Also, when I like something before it becomes popular, I don't question whether or not I just like it because other people like it (as much). It's easier for me to see whether or not I like its intrinsic qualities. And then when it becomes popular, it feels like I guessed how many jelly-beans were in the jar and I got it right. 

There are also times I enjoy being in the zeitgeist. Video-games for example. I want to be part of the discussion when a new game comes out. I would feel the same way about old games, if there was active discussion about old games. 

 

I didn't say kid's art was GOOD. I said it was COOL. It is awesome to see kids being artistic, having visions, and translating them to a physical medium. It's creative, and it's valuable for its own sake. If you are going around evaluating art from children like it needs cultural value outside of the fact that it was created, maybe you need to take a look at how you judge things.

 

 

When I find something that is neat and cool that no one knows about, you know what I want to do? Share it. Cool things are not treasures to hoard. Look at this forum! It's full of people sharing all the funny and clever and cool stuff they found.

[Merus]

I don't know if hipster has a meaning separate from poser these days, so I just prefer poser. It also means that I'm not dismissing someone who has specific tastes just because they have specific tastes.

[Nachimir]

Yeesh. Dude! I'd really, really try to work on your "excitement" reaction upon realizing you enjoyed something before someone else. That's a real off-putting attitude to have for anyone.

 

I understand what you mean, but there's a difference between finding that exciting (plus pretty much everything clyde said), and being snooty or deriving self-worth from it. The latter are usually what people meant when I first heard them using the word*, and you're right, those attitudes are horrible. Their equally horrible and superficial corollary is losing interest as soon as other people share it. Excitement about discovery is a different thing though. Edit: That latter thing seemed to me what clyde was describing.

 

When I first listened to Night Vale Radio, it had been going for maybe a year. It probably had a lot of listeners already, but not enough that anyone from a single friend group I'm in, or forum I'm on, had mentioned it once. Getting to spread that to people and introduce them to something so good was really satisfying.

 

* While it used to indicate these sorts of attitude, now when I hear people using the term hipster it's usually just on aesthetic grounds because someone is wearing a certain type of clothing or in a certain place. It's a weird and bankrupt definition, and so knee-jerk I'm not sure how anyone feels confident in their use of it.

 

 

How many hipsters does it take to change a light bulb?

 

It's a really obscure number. You wouldn't have heard of it.

[clyde]

I didn't say kid's art was GOOD. I said it was COOL. It is awesome to see kids being artistic, having visions, and translating them to a physical medium. It's creative, and it's valuable for its own sake. If you are going around evaluating art from children like it needs cultural value outside of the fact that it was created, maybe you need to take a look at how you judge things.

I'm trying to figure out if the kid-art that I enjoy has cultural relevance. That may be a very general way to put it. I tend to like it when there is a noticable attempt at representation (preferably people or animals) or a commitment to an aesthetic hypothesis (such as filling the entire page with color in a way that you can imagine when they tired of a specific crayon and which one the moved to next). I don't really think they need cultural relevance, unless you would consider the techniques I mentioned as some form of cultural relevance. Most kid art isn't like this though. Most of the time when I look at a wall of kid-art, it looks more like an exhibit of a teacher's choice from a template. A paper-plate with a single line for a mouth and two circles for eyes and hair yarn. I even get the impression that the kid didn't get to choose the yarn length or color because the teacher decided that it should be somewhat representational of the kid. I hate that shit; it sucks. I'm a hipster; I have taste.

But sometimes kid-art can really express something besides that the child was led through a series of actions. I lke it when they color a picture biasedly. For instance, you might see a ditto of a cartoon man who only has his arms and shoes colored and the shoes look like they've been gone over by three colors; that is interesting to me. I'm not interested in the fact that the kid showed up, that should just be assumed as a base-line IMO.

[Patrick R]

The best working definition of hipster I have found is "one who makes you insecure about how cool you are". That seems to be the way most people use it.