It's probably time to talk about game genres again.

[Tanukitsune]

I know I'm not the only one who says game genres can be... problematic. 

 

Gaming is evolving constantly, and genres themselves to be evolving, splitting into other sub-genres and generally giving everybody a big headache when trying to classify them.

 

Genres for other media tend to specific the world's setting (fantasy, sci-fi), or how people in that world interact with each other (romance, drama, comedy).

 

But with games we classify them by how we, the player, can interact with the world, at least when it was more simple at the beginning.

 

You jump? It's a platform game! You punch? It's a brawler! You control units? Strategy! Stats? RPG!

 

But as games have evolved it's quite easy for a game to have several ways to interact with the world, you can have puzzle elements, strategy elements, RPG elements, we even have "hybrid games" that practically let you play the game in one "genre", like RPGs that let you play non-violently and turn the game into an adventure game or brawler/shooters that you play with only one style if you want.

 

Also, as gaming has evolved, we tend to go from saying "X is a clone of Y" to saying "Y is a game in the X" genre. We've seen it before with survival horror and now... has the "God of War clone" officially got it's own name yet?

 

Let's admit... this is a total mess... but is it a necessary mess? I'm afraid so... 

 

 

Explaining a genre now is complicated specially since so many sub-genres and hybrids have emerged. I think the problem is that the genre definition might need refinement and be more malleable in some cases and strict in others.

 

What is an adventure game? You click and stuff and solve puzzles, right! Wait, that would technically make gem swap games adventures.

OK, they have an inventory? Wait, some puzzle games have inventory... in fact almost every game has them now.

Hmm, how about it's a genre were you solve a specific type of puzzles? Conversation puzzles, logic puzzles and inventory puzzles! No, we do those in RPGs!

Oh, but the adventure genre was born from RPGs, so it's normal... Wait... how about we call adventure games anything were it's like an RPG were you rely more on you intellect than on your strength, but that doesn't necessarily mean that combat is optional.

 

Ok, that's a bit messy, but it's a start.... so....What's an RPG? 

 

Yeah.... I can't help to notice that genres seem to defined in a way to differentiate them from others now, but are kinda dependent from others?

 

But still, we need them to know what we're facing. The difference between RTS and turned based strategy is big enough that people HAVE to be this specific.

 

I'm pretty sure we could argue on what we think each genre is to each of us for ages, but what do you guys think? Are they still necessary? Do we need a "reboot"? Do we need to be more specific or less?

[clyde]

There's no question that genres have uses, or that they are sometimes detrimental. I definately think that genres are due for some refinement so that they can better communicate the context that will help a noob appreciate the product.

I've started reducing based on the decisions you make and the consequential states of those choices. Games where I am choosing which weapon to use on which enemy are losing their appeal for me, but I love Mass Effect and Dragon Age because I get to make decisions like "Is genocide an acceptable solution." So that's how I an trying to define genres. What types of decisions do you make and why are the consequences of those decisions interesting.

[Tanukitsune]

It's strange that nobody has tried to make "moral ambiguity" or "tough decisions" a genre, specially since some games use this as their main trait. 

 

And every game is practically three genres at the same time, would it be that different to call Mass Effect a "morally ambiguous RPG FPS with dating aspects" from "RPG FPS with dating aspects"?

[Stuart]

I'd say the only game genre that sounds right to me is survival horror. It both empathizes the main focus of the mechanics (survival) while also giving insight as to what the tone, themes, emotions, etc. the game is trying to convey (horror). I feel we need video game genres to take note of that sort of classification. 

[clyde]

This reminds me of why I need genres in the first place. So that I have clues about what various games have to offer before I buy them, install them and invest time in them.

It's crazy to me that my best option to find out what games have any procedural rhetoric on the methods or effects of state-led welfare efforts is to first of all FIND the Idle Thumbs forums and then ask around. That shit should be in a searchable list of features.

The reason I think it's crazy is that I can easily find songs, written works, or films on any given subject. I don't think its a matter of how large the pool is (when there are instances of the subjects I'm looking for being expressed in games), I think it's a matter of discoverability.

[Stuart]

Tanuk, your thread seems to have cloned itself, may wanna check that out. Since there are more posts here, I guess I'll copy paste my response from cloned thread:

 

I'd say the only game genre that sounds right to me is survival horror. It both empathizes the main focus of the mechanics (survival) while also giving insight as to what the tone, themes, emotions, etc. the game is trying to convey (horror). I feel we need video game genres to take note of that sort of classification. 

[Bjorn]

The one thing about genre that drives me batty is Steam (and probably other places) classifying things as being in the "Indie" genre. What does that even mean?  If Indie is a genre, why isn't there a AAA genre, or "Traditionally Published" genre?

[lobotomy42]

AAA sort of is a genre, though...

 

Genre is a useful concept because it gives us an abstraction against which to compare the specifics of a particular real instance.  There are plenty of games that no one would hesitate to dump into, say, adventure games, even though they might violate one or two of the rules of adventure games, and that's ok, it's still a meaningful concept.  When we think of adventure games, we sort of imagine the average of all adventure games, with the bits unique to adventure games taking more prominence and the bits common to all games taking less prominence.  This might seem fuzzy, but it's actually really useful (and I'd argue it's a feature of language, not of genre.)  I can now say "Grim Fandango is an adventure game, but in it's in 3D with Resident Evil controls."  Or "The Walking Dead is an adventure game that has timed dialogue choices and is light on puzzles."  Both statements contain a lot of information about the respective games - setting the genre indicates that anything left unsaid can be assumed to conform to type, and additional detail said is an indicator of variation from the type.

 

So I guess my argument is that genre is useful and not particularly contradictory: it's a definition we use to measure deviancy against.

[syntheticgerbil]

The one thing about genre that drives me batty is Steam (and probably other places) classifying things as being in the "Indie" genre. What does that even mean?  If Indie is a genre, why isn't there a AAA genre, or "Traditionally Published" genre?

God that's a pet peeve of mine. Indie being listed as a genre in any type of media makes no sense and just causes confusion of expectations. It would be more valuable to state the production as indie and the genre of what the actual game is. It feels similar when people list "animation" as a genre of movie. No it's fucking not.

 

That said, I think generally genres are there for marketing reasons more than anything. Just a short hand to tell your friends what they may expect when they play a game (or to get them to play it in the first place). I think games are a bit different compared to books or movies when it comes to genre because for the last decade or so, I don't feel there's many cases where you can expect to play a game that is completely basic in the genre it's in. Usually there's always a mix with another genre (or two) and I get the feeling at this point most gamers expect that.

 

This is probably why people just end up watching a bunch of Let's Plays before they buy a game now. I know I can't take any kind of said genre on face value anyone and usually resort to something a bit more meaty than a trailer to get an idea of what I'll be playing.

[tegan]

is metroid prime an fps

[SecretAsianMan]

My problem with genre definitions is that you have to add so many caveats in order to accurately describe a game, it makes the whole idea of using a genre to define a game pointless.  Already many descriptions have started resorting to "X meets Y meets Z" to describe a game, which is also a shitty solution.

[Tanukitsune]

Tanuk, your thread seems to have cloned itself, may wanna check that out. Since there are more posts here, I guess I'll copy paste my response from cloned thread:

 

I'd say the only game genre that sounds right to me is survival horror. It both empathizes the main focus of the mechanics (survival) while also giving insight as to what the tone, themes, emotions, etc. the game is trying to convey (horror). I feel we need video game genres to take note of that sort of classification. 

What? How on Earth did that happen? I guess I can't delete it now that it has a reply.

 

Adventure sounds pretty right to me too, it's all about discovery, finding a new world and getting immersed in it... mechanically it doesn't work that well though.

 

AAA should be it's own genre since it has unique mechanics that don't really appear in other genres like:

-Day one patch

-Day one DLC

-Waiting a couple months until the game actually works or until some fan fixes it in 24 hours.

-Aesthetic unessential content, that should be free behind a pay wall

-The oh so joyful filler collectible that does nothing to the game.

-Bureaucratic gameplay! Remember when you had to go to window A, for a keycard and that was it? That's for pussies! Now we'll have you running around in circles doing meaningless fetch quests because AAA games means our game must be infinity hours long and we can't be bothered to make it long in a proper way.

 

... Sorry, AAA gaming is real sour spot for me now.  

 

 

In a way need both the "indie" and "AAA" genre, for the sad reason that nobody would buy a game that doesn't have a "AAA" unless it's indie and nobody would pay a "AAA" price unless it's a "AAA" game. 

[Eric]

Yeah there seems to have been an interesting rhetorical effect going on with popular media over the last dozen years or so with the term indie. Film, music, and video games all seem to have seen the rise of a distinct style that has been associated with medium or low cost but relatively high production value. I think the accessibility of technologies has led to the viability of easy and high fidelity recording or development for young, moderately wealthy, connected folks who share similar intents, inspirations, and mindsets. This is why the indie genre in film seems to be represented by the digital gloss of the Canon 5D, music is 4 - 8 college educated white male sweatered and soft spoken 20-somethings, and video games feature throwbacks to the medium as it was in the early and mid 90s.

 

I think there is this middle group of folks who prior to now would have either a) never been interested enough to leap the cost or technological gap and engage fully in a medium they find interesting and/or b ) been given access to a space where they could be recognized. Now these folks have access to low barrier to entry (at least for a relatively well off young person) technology and spaces in which they can display their work and garner interest, the modern internet. 

 

Video games are slightly different from music and film though. True success in those genres usually still comes through traditional avenues like playing in bars and local venues and through film festivals. Over time, however, I think it could be argued that indie film festivals and indie music audiences have been trending toward this new consumer space as the internet more and more informs and reproduces our consumptive tastes. Through this process the "indie genre" rhetoric is reproduced in those mediums. Video games, on the other hand, as creative products made on a computer to be enjoyed, mostly, on a computer have a natural home and showcase on the internet. So, when the new indies showed up on the scene in earnest, genre notions of that word were quickly reproduced in a space that was already amenable to that sort of development. Furthermore, video games are especially amenable to odd categorization because it's a young medium and what actually constitutes and delineates genre is pretty vague to begin with.

 

The big split that I think will eventually have to be codified is how differences between gameplay, narrative, intended audience, and economics affects functional differences in video games as a product.

 

Anyway this is just stuff that bubbles around in my head from time to time. I'm no expert in film, music, or video games so there's still odd (and probably just wrong) stuff in my analysis. Like obviously music has come a long way since the shins and film I'm sure as well. I think the fact that indie has been held on to as a category is because its a new style associated with a certain economy of production that society hasn't figured out on a whole how to define just yet, if it even can or should be defined.

 

[clyde]

If Steam had a losted more genre-tags, would it reduce the bigotry on its forums?

http://steamcommunity.com/app/229600/discussions/0/846944689687640883/

[Twig]

At first I was like, "Man, this thread is full of fucking morons." Then I saw the game they were talking about, and I was like, "Well, all right, I guess I can see where they're coming from."

 

God I hate that stupid thing.

 

Anyway, I hate genres, too. I know they're useful, but goddamn do I hate them. Everything is terrible. I quit life.

 

multiplayer online battle arena, bros

[Eric]

At first I was like, "Man, this thread is full of fucking morons." Then I saw the game they were talking about, and I was like, "Well, all right, I guess I can see where they're coming from."

 

God I hate that stupid thing.

 

Anyway, I hate genres, too. I know they're useful, but goddamn do I hate them. Everything is terrible. I quit life.

 

multiplayer online battle arena, bros

 

Prime reason why video games are art: Which do you think evokes more wistful thoughts, a painting of a simulated ocean or A REAL TIME SIMULATED OCEAN??

[clyde]

I would lose my shit spitefully if Steam added a new genre called "art".

Oh man, that would be vengefully hilarious.

[Twig]

Prime reason why video games are art: Which do you think evokes more wistful thoughts, a painting of a simulated ocean or A REAL TIME SIMULATED OCEAN??

I don't know what you're asking, really, but I love the ocean, and any reminder of an ocean makes me happy. I'm already happy because you mentioned oceans!

 

Yay oceans.

[tegan]

Why are there two of these?

[TychoCelchuuu]

Why are there two of these?

[Nachimir]

Why are there two of these?

[Coods]

Now there's three of those.

[sclpls]

Why are there two of three's?

[Tanukitsune]

I already said I don't know, but it looks like some mod removed or merged the threads?

[Bjorn]

An "Art" genre on Steam would be worth hours of entertainment.  Oh how the butthurt would flow.