Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons

[Noyb]

Ain't saying big bro deserved what happened, but by the time the spider's down to two legs she really doesn't pose any more of a threat. Felt really cruel to keep pulling her legs out at that point.

[tegan]

During that moment I could only think of two things:

1) Limbo totally did the same thing better

2) real spiders that lose even one of their legs generally have a much lower life expectancy, especially web-spinning ones. Which is kind of weird, because spiders can autotomize their legs.

[jmbossy]

Felt really cruel to keep pulling her legs out at that point.

 

Spiders are evil. They don't deserve our sympathy.

[syntheticgerbil]

I finished this about a week ago, and while I loved this game, the criticisms I have are completely in line with Tegan's. Big brother in general left me cold as well, but it's not necessarily a bad thing since it's a nice little story that is well thought out on its own. It's just if we are supposed to feel the game is truly heart wrenching or tear jerking, then perhaps the characters should have been more defined or maybe a real language should have been spoken. It's most likely fine the way it is, because I like the tale and the way it uses the game mechanics as inherent to the experience. I'm just a sucker for this style of platformers, possibly being my favorite genre, so any time I can do the jumping and climbing over cinematic landscapes, I'm there. I also found it much better than Limbo, which honestly left me a bit bored or felt somewhat tedious, especially as the years go by and I remember it more. 

 

Probably the most emotional moment for me was when you find out

the troll is sobbing because his wife was kidnapped. It's even more rewarding when you reunite them. That is probably my favorite part of the game. In contrast, there didn't seem to be any major reward after the final sequence when you use the spirit of big brother to guide you. It just seemed like it dragged a bit on the sadness to the point of awkward and was maybe not the best cap for the game.

 

I don't really understand the owl gryphon:

Was the one that flies you away near the end a separate owl gryphon just hanging around or are we supposed to get that the creature was not dead and instead healed in time?

 

The art side is just beautiful and astounding. I love the character designs in terms of their simplicity in contrast to the gorgeous storybook style backgrounds and the balance of colors are just right for the game, not too drab considering the usual fit for such a story and also not too in your face to the point of distraction. The way the light and shadow are on display here are just an intricate work of art in itself. I can't believe the production value put in to this game. I think Brothers must need to sell many copies in order to make a profit here. I sure hope they do. The amount of original art assets on display seems on par with a AAA game and not the usual downloadable title. Perhaps they got a bit of mileage out of repeats of assets, but the environment alone seems chock full of original locations that had to be separately modeled and textured.

Unfortunately, the animation for the most part sucks and kind of weighs down on an otherwise high end production. I suspect what happened here is a case of mocap being jammed in to a game that did not need it. I saw a short making of and it had the director acting out many of the parts, but I am not sure to what extent it is used because enough animators are credited to the point where they must have been going beyond just mocap cleanup. I'm guessing nearly all of the physical stuff with the brothers and the bosses and creatures were the original work of animators, thus being solid, and the bad acting was relegated to the mocap. Too much crappy flailing around and awkwardness happens when interacting with other characters. Possibly it was just something the director pushed for realism and could not be changed despite the animators on hand.

 

Also this makes me want to seek out films by Josef Fares. Is anyone here living in Sweden and has seen some of the films he has directed?

[Bjorn]

Played through this in one sitting this afternoon.  I pretty much echo Tegan and SyntheticGerbil's thoughts on it.  It was worth playing for the novelty of the controls and the incredible art, but ultimately I walked away quite frustrated with it.  The longer it went on, the more and more forced everything felt in it. 

 

I hadn't seen anyone else mention this, but maybe that's because I'm becoming more sensitive to this in general, but I'm getting damned sick and tired of games that can't manage to field a female character that isn't a tired and shitty cliche.  The game has 3 significant female characters.

 

Female #1

 

Mom gets killed off for no other reason than to justify the one son's fear of water, to setup the strength he ultimately finds in his brothers death in the end. It felt very much like a "refrigerator" moment from comics.

Killing off a female character for no other reason than to scar a male character for plot is bad.  Stop.

 

Female #2

 

A female ogre playing the damsel in distress. 

 

Female #3

 

Classic black widow seductress, whose punishment is ultimately to be dismembered by the heroes. 

 

It's not like any of the characters got a deep treatment in game.  But none of the male characters got saddled with tired, negative tropes as their defining characteristic either. 

[Twig]

I feel like

 

#1

you'd basically be saying the same thing if the dad had died and it was the mom who was sick and needed saving because whoops mom's sick and the boys gotta save her

#2

you'd basically be saying the same thing if the female troll needed your help to save the male troll because oh she still needs the boys to help her because she can't do it on her own

#3

actually i have no argument with this one the spider lady was horrible but really the only sore spot in the game so i forgive it that one flaw

 

There are plenty of shitty, shitty examples of how women are handled in entertainment. This game was never really trying to be about anything but the two brothers. 

 

This in particular...

But none of the male characters got saddled with tired, negative tropes as their defining characteristic either.

That's because there really aren't any tired, negative tropes for male characters to fall into. Or, rather, the same tropes that the males fall into AREN'T negative for males. The dad is the main damsel in this game, but because he's male it's okay. If you swapped his gender, like I said above, I feel like you'd be just as upset at that. The game is basically a fairy tale full of tropes, many not even to do with the women. Tropes tropes tropes. That is the whole game. Ehhhhhh.

[Gormongous]

I feel like

#1

you'd basically be saying the same thing if the dad had died and it was the mom who was sick and needed saving because whoops mom's sick and the boys gotta save her

#2

you'd basically be saying the same thing if the female troll needed your help to save the male troll because oh she still needs the boys to help her because she can't do it on her own

#3

actually i have no argument with this one the spider lady was horrible but really the only sore spot in the game so i forgive it that one flaw

There are plenty of shitty, shitty examples of how women are handled in entertainment. This game was never really trying to be about anything but the two brothers.

This in particular...

That's because there really aren't any tired, negative tropes for male characters to fall into. Or, rather, the same tropes that the males fall into AREN'T negative for males. The dad is the main damsel in this game, but because he's male it's okay. If you swapped his gender, like I said above, I feel like you'd be just as upset at that. The game is basically a fairy tale full of tropes, many not even to do with the women. Tropes tropes tropes. That is the whole game. Ehhhhhh.

Twig, I understand your frustration to some extent, but Bjorn's right. All the women in this game are dead, helpless, or evil. Are all the men in this game dead, helpless, or evil? Are all the men in any game dead, helpless, or evil?

It's a legitimate thing to be frustrated about, even if you're more frustrated by his frustration.

[Bjorn]

Twig, I understand your frustration to some extent, but Bjorn's right. All the women in this game are dead, helpless, or evil. Are all the men in this game dead, helpless, or evil? Are all the men in any game dead, helpless, or evil?

It's a legitimate thing to be frustrated about, even if you're more frustrated by his frustration.

 

Thank you for answering in a more elegant way than I could have.  Sometimes I overthink how to explain why something feels a particular way to me.

 

I would point to Broken Age as a counterargument to the idea that a fairy tale that relies on tropes must fall into the same traps.  BA is very much a fairy tale that actively subverts and twists all of the tropes that inspired it. 

[Twig]

I wouldn't put Broken Age and Brothers in the same category on any level. Brothers clearly had no desire to subvert or twist any tropes, male or female or unrelated. It is a very simple story of two brothers traveling together. Broken Age is trying to be so, so much more than that. I guess you can fault Brothers for not trying to be more, but I don't think it's right to fault it for failing when it never even tried.

 

There's a woman in Brothers that's just sweeping, I think? And you can also help her sweep, or something, I dunno it's been too long. There's a girl playing with a ball. I feel like there's also an old lady in a rocking chair but it might've been an old man. I dunno it's been too long. So there's three. Or maybe only two. I dunno it's been too long.

 

All the men in this game that matter are helpless, except for the old doctor dude who tells you where to go (who also doesn't really matter) and the two brothers, who are the main characters and really the only characters that matter because when you get down to it, the dad's sickness is just a reason for the brothers to travel.

[osmosisch]

Plot-critical males I can remember:

- the father (damseled)

- the brothers (protagonists + heroic sacrifice)

- the medic (competent but timid)

- the troll (picked-on, strong but timid)

Plot-critical females:

- the mother (fridged)

- the spider (sacrificial maiden rescue plus dark temptress double-whammy)

- the troll wife (damseled)

Basically nobody comes out looking good. The thing is though that in the broader framework of consistently assigning negative/weak roles to women, it is a good thing to NOT do so, rather than try to compensate by spreading the negativity out to the other gender. The pendulum needs to be actively pushed the other way if there's to be any hope of ever achieving balance.

[chummer]

I feel like

 

#1you'd basically be saying the same thing if the dad had died and it was the mom who was sick and needed saving because whoops mom's sick and the boys gotta save her

Yes, Twig. But do you understand why the same criticism would be leveled even if the situations were changed?

 

As I'm writing this, osmosisch posted this, which is what I'm getting at:

 

Basically nobody comes out looking good. The thing is though that in the broader framework of consistently assigning negative/weak roles to women, it is a good thing to NOT do so, rather than try to compensate by spreading the negativity out to the other gender. The pendulum needs to be actively pushed the other way if there's to be any hope of ever achieving balance.

[Twig]

The thing is though that in the broader framework of consistently assigning negative/weak roles to women, it is a good thing to NOT do so, rather than try to compensate by spreading the negativity out to the other gender. The pendulum needs to be actively pushed the other way if there's to be any hope of ever achieving balance.

I guess this is where I'm just like... Is this really the game to fight for? I hate to basically say "pick your battles" because I know people hate that and I know it's important to point it out as often as possible, but this is such a small profile game that is about none of that shit. This was a game built from a very personal perspective, as I recall? The guy basically had a really shitty thing happen to him as a kid, and so he created this game from that. EHHHHHHHH.

 

Also I guess another reason is just because the only characters I really remembered off the top of my head before really diving deep into my memory pit (and/or being reminded by these posts) were the brothers and the spider. Brothers because main characters and spider because she was awful. I'd even completely forgotten about the whole context going into the mines to help the troll couple get back together. And, like, I really loved this game, so I think it's telling that I didn't remember anybody else. But I guess that's wholly personal, so whatever!

 

Oh. I just remembered another plot-critical male. The guy who gives you the hang glider. He really has nothing wrong with him. A bit loopy, though. Heh.

 

 

But do you understand why the same criticism would be leveled even if the situations were changed?

Is that even a real question? Of course I do. That's not the point. Ugh.

 

Well whatever that's all I got to say I guess peace.

[chummer]

Is that even a real question? Of course I do. That's not the point. Ugh.

It was a real question because in your post before I received the impression that you didn't understand that. It was not asked in a spirit of patronization and I apologize if it came off that way.

[osmosisch]

I guess this is where I'm just like... Is this really the game to fight for?

The idea "there's things that are worse so don't point out this less-bad thing as still being bad" is not really productive.

Well whatever that's all I got to say I guess peace.

That time already? Goodness.

[Twig]

SgtWhistlebottom: It's fine. It's just another case of me being not 100% behind something contentious so I end up feeling like the bad guy. No worries.

 

osmo: you got some kinda ish with me pal?!

[osmosisch]

osmo: you got some kinda ish with me pal?!

No, but come on man you do this every time. If you don't want to see a conversation through why get involved?

[Ben X]

Did we go through all that Feminism thread for nothing?!

[Twig]

No, but come on man you do this every time. If you don't want to see a conversation through why get involved?

I do? Okay. Good to know.

[Golden Calf]

I wouldn't put Broken Age and Brothers in the same category on any level. Brothers clearly had no desire to subvert or twist any tropes, male or female or unrelated. It is a very simple story of two brothers traveling together. Broken Age is trying to be so, so much more than that. I guess you can fault Brothers for not trying to be more, but I don't think it's right to fault it for failing when it never even tried.

 

This seems like a really weak argument to me. If bad gender representations are a problem, then they're a problem whether or not the writers cared to subvert them (in the same way that racist characterizations are a problem whether or not a writer makes subverting racism a priority).

 

I think the phrasings 'subvert' and 'trying to be more' reveal an assumption that bad gender representations are just to be expected, that interesting or complicated female characters are a special treat we get every once in a while if we're lucky. I'm just not able to give writers a pass on this any more.

 

I still definitely think Brothers had merits, but this did bother me (and others apparently). 

 

 

edit: woah the discussion moved a lot before I hit post on this

[syntheticgerbil]

The guy basically had a really shitty thing happen to him as a kid, and so he created this game from that. EHHHHHHHH.

Where can I read about this?

[osmosisch]

Where can I read about this?

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/10/27/4864230/brothers-starbreeze-josef-fares

[Bjorn]

I hate to basically say "pick your battles" because I know people hate that and I know it's important to point it out as often as possible, but this is such a small profile game that is about none of that shit.

 

Just wanted to point out that this was a game that's got a 90 Metacritic score, was up for several GOTY nominations or in "best of" lists, was developed by a significant European studio and was designed by a well known European film director.  That's not small profile. 

 

Also, what does a game have to be about in order to have better gender characterization?   Are games that are about boy characters going on an adventure automatically excluded  from needing fair gender representation, or handling female characters in a thoughtful way?

 

Anyways, glad to see I wasn't the only one bugged by how they handled the female characters in this. 

[Twig]

Just wanted to point out that this was a game that's got a 90 Metacritic score, was up for several GOTY nominations or in "best of" lists, was developed by a significant European studio and was designed by a well known European film director.  That's not small profile. 

I actually meant more in terms of scale and what it was trying to do, and not so much in terms of reception and how big it got. But! You're right, I can't really argue with this. It's a totally fair point. The game had a pretty large impact.

[Erkki]

I actually meant more in terms of scale and what it was trying to do, and not so much in terms of reception and how big it got. But! You're right, I can't really argue with this. It's a totally fair point. The game had a pretty large impact.

[Bjorn]

I debated on continuing this, as it feels like it's hitting the point of just counterpointing everything and not really going anywhere, but then I ran across this article this afternoon by Cara Ellison about the raw number imbalance between male and female characters in games and movies. 

 

What I'm about to write isn't about beating up on this game, or criticizing anyone else's opinion.  As stated in my original post, there are things I enjoyed about it and I felt it was worth playing.  But since the conversation got rolling about the attitude towards female characters, lets do a little analysis and thought experiment on Brothers.  I'm not going to spoiler any of this, as the only spoiler are some character descriptions.  But, you've been warned.

 

There are at least 10 male characters that you have to interact with to drive the story forward (some of these are very minor, but still necessary to advance):  Father, doctor, son, son, town bully, gate keeper, ogre, cemetery keeper, inventor and cult leader

 

There are only 3 women that you have to interact with, and we've already explored their rolls. 

 

There are 7 plot necessary animals that you have to interact with:  Dog, dog, sheep, owlcat, owlcat, goat, goat

 

There are more plot relevant animals than there are women.  Women are 23 percent of the humanoid characters, and 15 percent of the plot relevant characters if you include animals.

 

So yeah, it does really bad on gender balance, though sadly it's probably better than many other games.

 

Thought experiment time.  Arguably you could gender swap 3 of the minor male characters (cemetery keeper, inventor and cult leader would be interesting choices) and you've just improved the gender balance and blunted the effect of using 3 bad female tropes.  And all it took was 3 character model swaps.  Put a little thought into the female troll, and you could avoid the Damsel in Distress by trapping the older boy in the cage instead, and having the younger boy work with the female troll to save older boy and everyone escape.  This would have been good foreshadowing, as it would have shown the younger brother having to work without his brother briefly to achieve something.  If the inventor is female, you've avoided the crazy old scientist trope, and you've shown gamers a female engineer.  Now make the cult leader female, and have some observable interaction between her and her prisoner.  Female to female interaction is crazy rare in video games.  Close to nonexistent.  The cult leader ultimately avoids all tropes, and gets left as an interesting little mystery given how that scene plays out (which is what happens anyways). 

 

To achieve this, a studio has made 3 new character models and re-worked two scenes using existing assets.  That's surprisingly minimal work to achieve better gender balance, more interesting characters, maintain the fairy tale setting, eliminate one negative female trope, show a positive female character and show a female to female interaction.  It doesn't take a massive reworking or ridiculous changes to a game to be more gender balanced.  This shows how little work it is to avoid lazy tropes like the ones present here.