The Business Side of Video (Space) Games EXCLUSIVELY ON IDLE THUMBS

[JonCole]

It's not a risk, the art is devalued because literally nobody is being paid for art they create and work they performed.

 

I dunno, I think it's fine to make a mistake in good faith and apologize for it. Good intentions don't mean you have a blank check to unintentionally exploit people.

[Twig]

I disagree but I don't really know how to argue in my favor so I'm probably wrong but I refuse to admit I'm wrong so there suck it nerd.

[Bjorn]

I agree that it was in good faith and was not meant to be exploitative, but that doesn't erase the issues around it.  We have plenty of examples of companies doing this shit unethically, and allowing other companies to do it in good faith just reinforces that it is an acceptable practice. 

 

It having just come up in the Feminism thread is one of the reasons I was pointing it out here.  No one thinks that the Dreamfall devs are bad people, but are still willing to criticize them when they are perceived to have crossed an ethical line. 

[Dewar]

There are a chunk of people who like a thing, and just want to have a part in that thing. The Rooster Teeth podcast plays a different closing theme (used to be opening, but they've got a professional intro now) from a listener each week. There's a large variety there between silly bathroom productions up to some obviously professional level songs. Heck, even Idle Thumbs crowd sourced their vocals for the new opening.

 

"But," you might say, "neither of those are paid products, so there's no money to be had." Which is true, but I can point to plenty of Kickstarters that have "design a character/ship/quest/etc." option that people are willing to pay real cash for. The specific example comes to mind at the moment is Massive Chalice and their "design a bloodline" tier, which is essentially getting a ton of crowd sourced content for free.

 

So *shrug* if they want to put up a contest, go for it. It's up to the individual creator what they think they should get paid for their work (or if they want to pay for the privledge of giving their work over.)

[JonCole]

In the case of the podcast stuff - yeah, you said exactly what I'd say.

 

In the case of the Kickstarters - there's something more explicit and more exchange-y about that instance. In the case of the contest thing, there is no guarantee that anyone will get anything in exchange for their work. As you said, a ton of crowd sourced content for free with a wink that says, "we might give you what you want!". In the case of Kickstarter, it's much more clear. If you "want to be a part of this", you can pay to do so and we'll use your content for sure and you'll get the mystical unicorn that is "exposure". Or really, your payment is a feeling when you actually contributed to something you love.

 

And, this is not the case with this Dreamfall situation, but there are many contests of this nature where you forfeit your ownership of your content when it's submitted to the contest. Again, that's not just a ton of crowd sourced content free, but they still hold all of your cards whether they decide to acknowledge your contribution as the "winner" or not.

[Bjorn]

@Dewar, I don't disagree with those points (particularly not Kickstarters where you can pay to be part of the end product), but I also appreciate why creatives push back against this.  There are a lot of people who've written very eloquently on this subject, with far better perspective and knowledge than I have. 

[Justin Leego]

So, bundle site Groupees is introducing a form of virtual currency, and some of the denominations are to have value as an equivalent to holding company stock.

 

 

Groupees introduces its very own in-system, Trading Coins. Part digital currency, part collectible, part loyalty reward, the Groupees Trading Coins will be one of many tradeable virtual goods within Groupees new website scheduled for release in early October.

 

Buyers of the Be Mine 14 bundle will receive these special, one-of-a kind Trading Coins–$5 purchasers will receive the $3 Jonny Antimatter Coin, $1 purchasers will receive the $1 Slugs Plutonium Coin. These particular coins have certain characteristics that are like stock ownership in Groupees and are redeemable for their cash value should Groupees ever be purchased or go public.

 

Like stock, the value of the Coins will increase as Groupees increases in value, and this will be published so holders know their value. The value will never decrease below the $3 and $1 face values. PLEASE NOTE, Coins will be issued and released to bundle buyers in October when the Groupees Trading Exchange is live.

 

Site's been around since 2010 and has put out more than 100 bundles in that time. Interesting move though not much immediate specificity about how the company valuation is measured. From one angle, it sounds very much like a statement of intent to sell the site.

[JonCole]

I have no idea what to make of that. I wonder if it's even legal. Is this just a weird way to valuate the company?

[Bjorn]

I'll just hold out for the Groupon deal to buy Groupee Coins, which I'll buy in bulk thanks to the purchasing power of my Bitcoin Group.

[Dewar]

@Dewar, I don't disagree with those points (particularly not Kickstarters where you can pay to be part of the end product), but I also appreciate why creatives push back against this.  There are a lot of people who've written very eloquently on this subject, with far better perspective and knowledge than I have. 

 

Oh, don't get me wrong, I personally wouldn't contribute to such a contest (though my skillset is more in programming than art,) but I don't think that such contests should be shoutted down so quickly.

[SuperBiasedMan]

My issue with contests like that is that you are getting Kickstarter money to make your game, budget for some damn music. A podcast is rarely run as a for profit system, and is just meant to be a community event which generally makes community participation not an issue. You have a kickstarter where you have raised money for it, and if your budget doesn't include money for all the music because it's all being spent on other stuff then you are outright making the statement that the music doesn't hold the same value. The fact that it's a competition is the worse part really, because that means only the winner gets anything at all for the work they put in.

[Henroid]

It's been really slow for a while, not much in the way of big important news. The PS4 hit 1 million units sold in the UK after 40 weeks (making it the 2nd fastest next to the Wii), and it's expected to have some oomph from Destiny. And I guess the XB1 launched in Japan.

 

But I came here to talk about something else. There was an interview done with Hajime Tabata, the co-director of Final Fantasy 15 and how it could weigh in on the state of RPGs. It was done over at Kotaku, but here's Gamasutra's piece: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224994/More_evidence_of_Final_Fantasys_existential_crisis.php

 

But more importantly than that is a counter-point I read over here: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/counterpoint-japanese-rpg-final-fantasy

 

The short of it is that RPGs in Japan aren't waiting to be rekindled or have their death knell sounded with FF15. It argues that Japan's console game sales have been ever dropping, even when it comes to Final Fantasy games (13 had a low buy rate and a high return rate). If anything, the future for video games in Japan rests on mobile games, which are what's taking off over there. I've had passing glances at sales numbers over the last few years and it makes sense.

 

It's some weird food for thought, but all for a game that doesn't really have a release date yet as far as I know.

[JonCole]

So the WSJ said that Microsoft is angling to buy Mojang for $2 billion. As a person who still hasn't gotten into Minecraft, I can't imagine I'll be caring too much about that from a "oh no what's going to happen to Minecraft!" perspective. Also, millions of dollars in Notch's pocket seems like tons of potential money going to funding of other indies which seems to be good for everyone.

[Denial]

In a sense, the only reason not to sell at that point is because you don't need to. Like, there were rumors of Microsoft buying Valve at various points, but there was never any reason why Gabe Newell - already sufficiently wealthy, first from Microsoft stock and then Valve stock, to be able to do pretty much what he wants for the rest of his life - would want to be an employee at Microsoft again...

 

(Oh, man. What if Notch turns out to be this generation's Peter Molyneux? Maybe not the Molyneux we need, but the Molyneux we deserve...)

[tegan]

I feel like Notch would have an idealistic objection to the idea of Minecraft being owned by Microsoft. It's not like he can't get that money by just continuing to sell Minecraft anyway.

[Ucantalas]

After his reaction to Oculus Rift being purchased by Facebook, I can't see him taking too kindly to the idea of Microsoft buying Mojang... But, on the other hand, I thought Notch wasn't heavily involved in Mojang anymore? Or was it just that he's not much involved in Minecraft anymore?

[JonCole]

Well, he hasn't said anything since the rumors started to fly so that kind of non-answer makes me think it's possible despite his public misgivings for Windows in particular. 

[Merus]

Or he's having a day off or something

[JonCole]

THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE

[neonrev]

As far as I know, Notch is still at Mojang, just no longer it's CEO or president or whatever. While I can't imagine him possibly wanting to do that, I'm also pretty sure he bowed out of the business side of things a while ago since he doesn't have any background or skill in running such a massive enterprise with such unforeseen ramifications. He's definitely no longer the lead creative on Minecraft, and last I heard his main focus now is on using Minecraft funds to support him experimenting and prototyping new games. Which I support.

Minecraft is an unwieldy, legally sticky and difficult to innovate game with a rabid and impossible to please player-base who'll decry every possible decision.
Microsoft is a gigantic black box that can probably shit out updates at fifty times the rate Jens can (even if they do continue the 'updates free forever' thing, which I don't see happening.), has basically infinity lawyers and could not give less of a fuck about either forum rants or stagnation in design.
I think maybe Microsoft and Minecraft are made for each other. 
I also think Minecraft under Microsoft would be the end of the game that the word "Minecraft" means now. 

 

[SecretAsianMan]

According to this Bloomberg article, Notch himself actually initiated the talks with Microsoft to buy Minecraft.

 

The deal came together after Mojang founder Markus Persson reached out to Microsoft a few months ago, based on a positive working relationship on Minecraft for Xbox, said the person familiar with Microsoft.

 

Don't know how accurate that is but it's interesting if true.

[Justin Leego]

Well if that's true, then... well... huge franchise potential, original game badly needs to be rewritten (but already has been for Xbox and PS editions, right?), loads of toy tie-ins already, annual fan convention, buy-out prevents sequels going to Facebook Oculus / PlayStation / other mobile rivals etc.

 

Wonder if Notch would just go into full-on philanthropic beast mode.

[Henroid]

It really goes against Notch's position in the past to do this, but I wonder if he's initiated the talks to demonstrate a point. Or maybe everyone does have a buy-out price. Two billion is a fuckload of money. I hate to sound all console-war-ish, but I wonder if Microsoft is wanting to capitalize on having a chance to cancel the upcoming PS4/Vita ports of Minecraft, a move motivated by them losing to Sony so far in installbase for this console gen.

 

Thing is, setting all that aside, if this thing goes through we could witness another Zynga/OMGPOP situation. For those who don't remember, Zynga bought OMGPOP, and on the day the deal was finalized was the last day that OMGPOP's value was growing. It was at its peak; it then started to free fall and the brand name was picked up with no yield to really show for it. Mojang has one game under their belt with value. If MS tries to push a "Minecraft 2" even, it could be a disaster. Especially since MS will have many demands regarding platform availability and features. They're a big business - it's what they do.

 

So I dunno. Maybe Notch sees an opportunity for a big pay-day, on top of success already had, and is going to start another company (but with WAY more funding, meaning team size). And maybe other employees are planning to bail after the purchase along with him (Bloomberg also reports that Notch is planning to bail when / if the purchase goes through). Minecraft's success can't last forever and this could be a mastermind play to get a corporation Notch doesn't care for to essentially lose money on a deal.

 

I can't help but get tinfoil hat on this shit, because I hate mega-corporations a lot.

 

In other Microsoft business news Japan's release of the XB1 was a flop, as expected. In two days it barely pushed over 20k units sold. The 360 sold 62k on its first day in Japan, by comparison. The Wii U and PS4, current competition, each sold 304k and 322k in their first two days in Japan respectively. As I said, this isn't surprising, because console gaming in Japan is on a downward trend and being replaced by mobile gaming. Pairing that with Japan not being receptive to Microsoft video games in the first place and you get this.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/10/6130445/xbox-one-japan-release

[SecretAsianMan]

It really goes against Notch's position in the past to do this, but I wonder if he's initiated the talks to demonstrate a point. Or maybe everyone does have a buy-out price. Two billion is a fuckload of money. I hate to sound all console-war-ish, but I wonder if Microsoft is wanting to capitalize on having a chance to cancel the upcoming PS4/Vita ports of Minecraft, a move motivated by them losing to Sony so far in installbase for this console gen.

 

I don't remember where I saw it but there have been reports that even if Microsoft did get it, they wouldn't be cancelling other versions of the game.  But I think it's still mostly speculation at this point.

[Justin Leego]

Perhaps it's just coincidence but It's great timing to have this story come out just as Destiny releases. Assuming that Sony is reaping the benefits of being able to associate itself closely with Destiny.