Tales of Monkey Island

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yeah, you're probably right. I'd still like to have seen how he would have done it.

Plus, given that MI1 and MI2 are among the best adventure games ever made (even when you take them as stand-alone games) I'd like to have seen what he'd saved up for the third and final part.

You know you can't forget that MI1 and MI2 (I get the feeling moreso with MI2) were co-written with Tim Schafer and Dave Grossman... and probably lots of other people. I'm sure Ron is great, but Schafer and Grossman have shown themselves to be rather excellent at what they do, too... So it wasn't ALL Gilbert, as convenient as it might be to think that it was.

[Horticulture Tycoon]

Whaaaat? The game clearly states, as canon, that it's a CURSE.

Why, because Elaine said it? That's not the same thing as the game saying it.

Guybrush's parents also said that Guybrush is a little boy who ran away and so they sent his brother Chucky to go and find him. It doesn't make either statement definitively true. Obviously CMI resolved this ambiguity once and for all, but we're not talking about CMI.

If it's all imagination land, then Elaine is imaginary and therefore her statement about a curse is meaningless. If it's a curse, then the parents are imaginary and what they say is meaningless. Either can be true.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Why, because Elaine said it? That's not the same thing as the game saying it.

Guybrush's parents also said that Guybrush is a little boy who ran away and so they sent his brother Chucky to go and find him. It doesn't make either statement definitively true. Obviously CMI resolved this ambiguity once and for all, but we're not talking about CMI.

If it's all imagination land, then Elaine is imaginary and therefore her statement about a curse is meaningless. If it's a curse, then the parents are imaginary and what they say is meaningless. Either can be true.

*Lets loose a feral scream* We're talking about the language of narrative. Pretty basic stuff. If someone suddenly awakens and realises what they've just experienced was a hallucination, then fair enough. But if we THEN see the former baddie in this "new world" look at the camera and let us know that he's still the same baddie... and THEN cut to someone who was supposedly in the original "hallucination", apparently alive and well and NOT made up... Then YES, it IS the game saying that!

[syntheticgerbil]

In a way, a part of me thinks if Ron Gilbert had done MI3, he would have solved it in similar ways CMI did with the Carnival of the Damned. While I bet the cliche of it all being a dream was the Ron Gilbert ending, I doubt a third game by him would elaborate on that.

I don't think there's anyone out there who would love to play a whole Monkey Island game from the perspective of wee little Guybrush having fun in his imaginary world. That's just so... lame.

[Horticulture Tycoon]

Hey, I was at work all day, I had to wait until now to ruin the thread.

Your analogy is interesting though (aww, you edited it out... well I'm not erasing this paragraph, so everyone else will just have to be confused) because while I totally agree that we should assume that your fire engine is headed toward the burning building, it doesn't necessarily make it so. Maybe it's all an elaborate scheme for a group of thieves dressed as firefighters to stage the GREATEST HEIST IN HISTORY! Misdirection is also an essential narrative tool.

I think you're assuming that Elaine's statement has more validity because she has the last word, but I don't see why it couldn't be Guybrush speculating how people in his imaginary world he's created might be reacting to his sudden absence. Same goes for LeChuck/Chucky's eyes. Not that I believe this is true mind you, I just believe that it might be true. If you want to interpret things differently that's fine, but I don't see how you can claim that my take on it is entirely invalid...

Now, if Ron's MI3 would've come out and definitively said that it was all the imagination of a little boy, then I agree that would've been lame. But if he'd left it ambiguous (like I believe MI2 is) so that it might all be the imagination of a little boy? Eh, I'm fine with that.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Now, if Ron's MI3 would've come out and definitively said that it was all the imagination of a little boy, then I agree that would've been lame. But if he'd left it ambiguous (like I believe MI2 is) so that it might all be the imagination of a little boy? Eh, I'm fine with that.

It's bizarre, because they didn't leave it ambiguous at all. It might have been interesting if they did, but they didn't! "Chuckie" looks at the CAMERA. Not to Guybrush. Guybrush doesn't even see it. It's a message to us! Same goes for Elaine. There is no way around this unless you want to start questioning EVERYTHING. Seriously.

Was the ending of Raiders of the Lost Ark "ambiguous"? Maybe Marion and Indy died when they opened the Ark... and the other movies are just dreams? Yeah, I love how they left it "ambiguous".

Was the ending of The Usual Suspects "ambiguous"? Yeah, I love how they left it open so that ANYBODY could have been Keyser Soze. I like to think it was the police detective interviewing Kevin Spacey. Well, the film didn't say it WASN'T him! They left it ambiguous!

Seriously. You can't say something is ambiguous unless you're given a reason to question something... There's NO reason to think that Guybrush is "imagining" Elaine. There's no reason to believe that Guybrush is "imagining" Chuckie turning into LeChuck behind his back. If you decide to question everything you could end up anywhere!

[Noyb]

I don't think there's anyone out there who would love to play a whole Monkey Island game from the perspective of wee little Guybrush having fun in his imaginary world. That's just so... lame.

It might be fun...

3HOMeMKANaQ

[Erkki]

Aye, CMI is the MI that I've returned to the most. What a thoroughly enjoyable game it is.

Same here. Glad I'm not the only one, I was actually thinking everyone besides me preferred MI1 or MI2.

[Karimi]

It's bizarre, because they didn't leave it ambiguous at all. It might have been interesting if they did, but they didn't! "Chuckie" looks at the CAMERA. Not to Guybrush. Guybrush doesn't even see it. It's a message to us! Same goes for Elaine. There is no way around this unless you want to start questioning EVERYTHING. Seriously.

Was the ending of Raiders of the Lost Ark "ambiguous"? Maybe Marion and Indy died when they opened the Ark... and the other movies are just dreams? Yeah, I love how they left it "ambiguous".

Was the ending of The Usual Suspects "ambiguous"? Yeah, I love how they left it open so that ANYBODY could have been Keyser Soze. I like to think it was the police detective interviewing Kevin Spacey. Well, the film didn't say it WASN'T him! They left it ambiguous!

Seriously. You can't say something is ambiguous unless you're given a reason to question something... There's NO reason to think that Guybrush is "imagining" Elaine. There's no reason to believe that Guybrush is "imagining" Chuckie turning into LeChuck behind his back. If you decide to question everything you could end up anywhere!

Thanks for ruining the Usual Suspects, I was planning on watching it this weekend.

[thorn]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4070/back_in_the_water_the_monkey_.php

Interview with Dave Grossman with the famous Chris Remo.

Sidenote: A google phrase search for "the famous chris remo" comes up with a perhaps surprising number of hits.

[Karimi]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4070/back_in_the_water_the_monkey_.php

Interview with Dave Grossman with the famous Chris Remo.

Sidenote: A google phrase search for "the famous chris remo" comes up with a perhaps surprising number of hits.

'

Thats a pretty great interview Chris, asked all the questions I wanted to. Can you do one with Tim schafer soon ?

[lobotomy42]

With regards to the MI2 ending, I'm almost completely with Thrik. When I finally saw the ending to MI2, everything just clicked in my head. The idea of the MI universe being, essentially, a theme park makes a lot of sense. The universe was *always* sort of set up that way. The pirates in MI are basically Disney World "Pirates of the Caribbean" pirates - a collection of stereotypes and archetypes, with any actual "piratey" violence significantly lessened, and a dash of blatant consumerism to boot. In many ways, this makes it easier for the player to accept as a game setting: a "realistic" pirate universe would probably be unrecognizable to most people, since our image of pirates has been so heavily shaped by 30s adventure films and Disney rides.

Even Guybrush's catch phrase - "I'm Guybrush Threepwood, and I want to be a pirate!" - indicates a certain degree of fantasy. There's little reason for most people - either in the Caribbean in 17th Century, or the present day - to want to be an actual pirate. Guybrush's ideal pirate is the adventurous, friendly kind from Disney rides and movies.

I don't think Elaine hanging around by the pit and waiting for Guybrush necessarily negates the "It's a theme park being interpreted by a kid's imagination" scenario, either. It's "all in his head" doesn't mean that the people whom Guybrush has imagined cease to live out their fantasy lives or stop behaving as if the universe is real to them. For Elaine, Guybrush is still stuck in that hole, and she's hoping that an evil spell wasn't cast on him. Guybrush, in the real world, is eagerly waiting for a chance to return to his fantasy world and tell Elaine that LeChuck has been dealt with.

And...yeah, it's tough to see how anyone could have written a third MI game with that premise, and I wouldn't want one. But it's hard for me not to read the first two games this way.

On an unrelated note, anyone know when Tales of Monkey Island is hitting WiiWare?

[Jake]

For what its worth, here are their relative sizes when next to each other:

[ThunderPeel2001]

Jake... where is it???

[Jake]

on its way?

[vimes]

Eheh, ThunderPeel 'Where's my Monkey Island?!!!!'

EuAVgWJ28Hw

[ThunderPeel2001]

Eheh, ThunderPeel 'Where's my Monkey Island?!!!!'

EuAVgWJ28Hw

Lol! And the frustrations of half the planet were released

[Noyb]

Only finished the intro puzzle, but so far the inventory UI is atrocious. Why is there a completely different UI element to combine inventory items? Why can't I just select one item, then the other? Is reordering my inventory so important that it requires the clunky panel? Why does the magnifying glass deselect after looking at an item? Why do I need to click to exit the inventory?

I'm enjoying the game itself, though. The art works a lot better than I expected. I love the trees effect when going to the menu.

[Horticulture Tycoon]

Well I hadn't planned on it, but I ended up finishing it in one sitting. Not because it was short (in fact it was far longer than I'd expected), but because I was enjoying it too much and didn't want to stop. The

Jacques the Monkey

sequence was a real standout... Fantastic puzzle, that. Loved the cliffhanger too, I can't wait to see where things go from here. My only real complaint aside from the inventory annoyances Noyb's talking about is that

the various map puzzles got a little repetative

, but that's a minor quibble.

Weird playing a Monkey Island game

without Stan

though. I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

[Chris]

It's bizarre, because they didn't leave it ambiguous at all. It might have been interesting if they did, but they didn't! "Chuckie" looks at the CAMERA. Not to Guybrush. Guybrush doesn't even see it. It's a message to us! Same goes for Elaine. There is no way around this unless you want to start questioning EVERYTHING. Seriously.

Was the ending of Raiders of the Lost Ark "ambiguous"? Maybe Marion and Indy died when they opened the Ark... and the other movies are just dreams? Yeah, I love how they left it "ambiguous".

Was the ending of The Usual Suspects "ambiguous"? Yeah, I love how they left it open so that ANYBODY could have been Keyser Soze. I like to think it was the police detective interviewing Kevin Spacey. Well, the film didn't say it WASN'T him! They left it ambiguous!

Seriously. You can't say something is ambiguous unless you're given a reason to question something... There's NO reason to think that Guybrush is "imagining" Elaine. There's no reason to believe that Guybrush is "imagining" Chuckie turning into LeChuck behind his back. If you decide to question everything you could end up anywhere!

Those films don't have cues very, very clearly pointing to other possible interpretations. Monkey Island 2 obviously does. If you don't think the ending of that game is ambiguous, I don't know how to discuss this with you. That's without even considering all the anachronistic objects scattered throughout the world, things that would make little sense in the games' ostensible settings.

As for Elaine's statement, that is exactly part of the ambiguity. I fully disagree with your first paragraph in the quoted post. The fact that the characters address the camera makes the situation MORE of a fantasy to me. Those characters are only reliable insofar as their own personal experiences, and if they are a mere fantasy, that is meaningless. Yes, obviously, you could start saying every character in every book or film or game might just be part of a fantasy or dream, but most of those books and films and games don't ever suggest that possibility in the first place.

As far as "canon" goes: Jesus Christ, I couldn't possibly care less. I hate that term and what it represents. I don't care much about "universes," I care about individual works. Monkey Island 1 and 2 are great games, and they are directly connected, sharing much in terms of tone, character, and setting. Monkey Island 3 is also a great game, but very different to Monkey Island 1 and 2 in tone, character, and setting. It is a different take on a pirate adventure game--a good one, just a different one.

I appreciate Monkey 1 and 2, and Monkey 3 for very different reasons, even though I like all of them. It doesn't matter how the people who made Monkey 3 decided to interpret the end of Monkey 2. And don't get me wrong--I'm not talking about which one "real" or "canon" or whatever bullshit. I don't care.

When we're talking about what happens in Monkey Island 2, it's stupid to use in the discussion a game that was made years later by a totally different core staff. Again, that's not an issue of relative quality, it's just logical.

In that vein, the Paul Newman character in the film The Color of Money, Martin Scorsese's sequel to Robert Rossen's film The Hustler, need not be used to inform interpretation of the same Paul Newman character from The Hustler. They're both from the same "universe," they're both released by the same studio, the Scorsese film is probably "canon" (God I hate even typing that word), but that really doesn't matter. They are separate works with separate authorial intent. There are a million examples of this in fiction of all forms, from theatre to literature to film and even in music in some cases.

And I don't care if Gilbert has a big amazing interpretation or not. That is not at all the issue for me. The reason I like Monkey 2's ending is precisely because it is ambiguous and surreal. Even if you accept your interpretation, Monkey 1 and 2 (2 in particular) are littered with anachronisms and red herrings and unlikely inclusions that make little sense if the world is simply taken at face value. The idea that LeChuck just cast a spell, which is announced by one of the main characters--at the end of a duo of games that starts off in the most completely unexplained and arbitrary way imaginable--makes no sense to me either on a tonal level or simply based on the evidence presented in the game itself.

And for that matter, I don't want it all to be explained away. I, basically, want it not to make complete sense. Games (and gamers) are obsessed with plot-driven, super-duper-explained narratives and universes. I love that Monkey Island 2 essentially just ignores that convention. I wish more games would.

[toblix]

I guess you're a Nikon man, then.

[Patters]

I'm really liking the game, It runs quite nicely on my laptop at medium settings, native res. The inventory system could be better though.

[Wurtsi]

Just finished the game, man that was great. Also, I noticed in the credits that Jake was listed under 'Choreography', what's that all about?

[Jayel]

I didn't mind the inventory UI at all. What I minded though is that "return to entrance" button on the lower left corner of the screen. I kept hitting it by mistake thinking it was inventory. After years of playing adventure games where inventory icon is at that exact spot, it became an automatic response for me.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Only finished the intro puzzle, but so far the inventory UI is atrocious. Why is there a completely different UI element to combine inventory items? Why can't I just select one item, then the other? Is reordering my inventory so important that it requires the clunky panel? Why does the magnifying glass deselect after looking at an item? Why do I need to click to exit the inventory?

I'm enjoying the game itself, though. The art works a lot better than I expected. I love the trees effect when going to the menu.

Totally agree with everything you just said!