Tales of Monkey Island

[Udvarnoky]

Correct.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Has Ron Gilbert sold out !?

Nah, Ron's not great in interviews. Has anyone got the one where he confidently predicted the demise CD-ROMs? Even without that, can't a guy change his mind?! It's odd that if you say something in an interview then THAT is what you believe. Period.

I doubt I could hold myself up to such a standard. Heck, I've probably contradicted myself several times just on this forum.

Also, has anyone read anything about Ron's original plans for MI3? Sort of curious as to how he intended to deal with the Big Whoop carnival

I don't know why, but he seems like messing with people regarding the "secret" of Monkey Island, and his supposed plans for MI3. While I don't doubt he'd love to do HIS version, I seriously doubt he has any serious plans.

Also: The whole LeChuck/kiddie/amusement park thing WAS explained in the original game... at least a little bit.

[Karimi]

Yea I remember that. I thought CMI did a pretty good job of making the transition work.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Yeah, they took the whole thing pretty literally in CMI (ie. the Carnival ACTUALLY exists!) but they did a good job alright.

[Thrik]

Nah, I don't think that whole kid thing was really meant to be LeChuck's magic or anything like that. There were too many clues — including in the original game — hinting towards the whole lot being make-believe.

Plus let's not forget that LeChuck used a voodoo spell to make the doll of Guybrush, so that line could be considered completely irrelevant to the whole imagination thing.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Nah, I don't think that whole kid thing was really meant to be LeChuck's magic or anything like that. There were too many clues — including in the original game — hinting towards the whole lot being make-believe.

Plus let's not forget that LeChuck used a voodoo spell to make the doll of Guybrush, so that line could be considered completely irrelevant to the whole imagination thing.

Huh? Are you serious? Or are you fucking with me?

You sound like a crazy fanboi. There's no great conspiracy... The word "spell" is written in capital letters just to make sure you don't miss it... I mean, if it's ALL make believe (which may have been the original intention, to be fair) then grown up Elaine doesn't even exist. I mean why even have that scene if not to explain what you've just seen?! Ah, you are fucking with me, aren't you?

[Thrik]

I think it's a fairly established fact that the first two games were meant to have been the imagination of a kid.

The scene you posted was thrown in at the last minute just to leave things open to question (or a sequel), as it being a genuine LeChuck spell would totally contradict far too much evidence to the contrary. Heck, maybe Elaine is just another kid in on the game and she's wondering where her buddy has gone!

There's no 'may' about it, with quotes in Monkey Island 1 like "Pirate lingo, Guybrush! It's how they all spoke back then!" from a pirate who couldn't have even known Guybrush's name — not to mention the stuff we've all seen in that SCUMM Bar article.

This quote from Bill Tiller both addresses the scene you posted and confirms the whole notion:

Well this is all I know, and I learned it from Larry Ahern and Dave Grossman. [..] The explanation I heard is that Guybrush was lost in the Pirates Ride at Big Whoop Amusement Park the whole time, imagining the whole adventure. Then Chucky, his mean older brother goes and pulls him back to reality. The end. And that magical lightning coming out of Chucky's eyes and Elaine waiting by the hole on Dinky Island (which sounds a lot like Disney Land) was put there just in case there was to be a Monkey Island 3. The secret is that the MI world is not real.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Thrik

[ThunderPeel2001]

You seem to be a bit confused. That may have been their original intention, but that's NOT what they released. The "pirate lingo" thing wasn't a hint at some big conspiracy, it was just breaking the fourth wall for a little joke (and explanation for the younger player).

Your quote from Bill Tiller confirms this, too:

"And that magical lightning coming out of Chucky's eyes and Elaine waiting by the hole on Dinky Island (which sounds a lot like Disney Land) was put there just in case there was to be a Monkey Island 3."

Well we all know that Ron claims to have wanted to do HIS version of MI3, so according to Tiller, Ron put this stuff in so he COULD do an MI3 -- ie. This was his explanation for what was going on: It's a LeChuck curse...

[Thrik]

I don't think I'm confused? I'm fully aware that the whole imagination thing ultimately didn't become series canon, but putting that stuff right at the end of MI2 was borderline retcon at the time IMO.

To clarify what Bill Tiller was saying: they pretty much set up the whole imagination thing and intended it to be the absolute ending, but then put the two things Tiller mentioned in as a get-out clause so the series could potentially be continued. I don't see how you could possibly interpret that any other way.

Ron can claim what he likes nowadays — just like he continues to say there's some amazing secret we don't know (WTF is there to reveal other than the imagination thing?) — but I'm pretty sure the series was never intended to continue after MI2 and I'm almost as sure I've even seen Ron say this in some interview somewhere. Him leaving the damn company kind of bolsters this.

What makes you think it was actually Ron who put those things in, by the way?

[Horticulture Tycoon]

What people say in interviews is irrelevant. All that matters is what is in the body of the game, and in the game it's obviously left to be deliberately ambiguous. Maybe it's all a boy's imagination, maybe it's a spell. To say that either case is demonstrably true would be a very presumptuous in my opinion.

[Karimi]

In literary criticism there is the "Intentional fallacy", which basically says that the author's intentions are largely irrelevant to the analysis of the work at hand . A text should be analyzed based on internal evidence rather than external and contextual evidence. Monkey Island belongs to the public, and I think while Ron's musings are relevant, they are no more important than Tim Schafer's opinion or anyone elses. Once a game is in public domain, everyone's interpretation is valid.A good argument is a good argument, regardless of who makes it and a game is more than one person's vision.

The author is dead.

[Udvarnoky]

For the record, I don't doubt at all that Gilbert had some general idea for a third Monkey Island game which involved/addressed the line between the fantasy world and the real world - I simply refuse to believe that he has/had it all mapped out to the extent that he's suggested, nor do I subscribe to the belief that he originally envisioned it as one neat trilogy that's just waiting to be properly wrapped up. Isn't there some story that the ending of MI2 is how he wanted to end MI1, but Grossman and Schafer basically urged him to reconsider?

The "pirate lingo" thing wasn't a hint at some big conspiracy, it was just breaking the fourth wall for a little joke

It was both, surely. It's pretty much verified that Ron always intended to eventually drop the "it's a kid's imagination" bombshell at some point, so such references can't be considered insignificant. Ron himself was inspired to create Monkey Island by riding the Pirates of the Caribbean ride, with the idea of the game being borne out of wanting to get outside the boat and explore the pirate ships and stuff - the idea of putting that concept into the game could almost be considered autobiographical. Whether or not it was a good idea in the first place is debatable, although I do admit I've always loved the sheer surrealism of MI2's ending.

Obviously, the anachronisms and 4th wall jokes also just work (and I'm quite sure were designed to work) as amusing gags on their own, and of course CMI and EMI continued the tradition of the world being simultaneously in the 17th century and modern day.

[thorn]

nor do I subscribe to the belief that he originally envisioned it as one neat trilogy that's just waiting to be properly wrapped up.

Except that he's repeatedly said that he originally only wanted to make one game but the plot was too large, so he split it in to a trilogy.

I am a member of the tribe that holds that he did have a plan for what MI3 was going to be about AND that the whole 'Guybrush being a kid' thing was a voodoo curse (about which more would have been revealed in MI3), rather than that it was the incredible truth revealed.

I mean, if we assume that he did have a plan for MI3 and that two kids playing in an amusement park would be a stupid idea for an adventure game, we have to assume that it was just a curse and that Guybrush the pirate was reality.

[Roderick]

Correct.

Bullshit. If you actually meant to say that the rabid fans are misinterpreting Gilbert when he's just teasing a little, you shouldn't have said:

People who worship Ron Gilbert's "true vision" just based on the fact that it's Ron Gilbert who came up with it have in fact been encouraged by Ron's incessant flaunting of such ideas as the "real secret" and "the real third game." [...] Frankly, Ron himself is to blame for these lunatics. I love the guy, but I hate the way he fuels the fire whenever the topic is brought up during interviews. He gets to add to his image the spurned genius who had that amazing discontinued vision, which he conveniently will never have to show anything for.

This is an unmistakable claim that Ron himself is the mastermind behind this behaviour. Don't try to laugh it away when someone calls your BS, be a man and stand behind your words, sir.

(If it seems I'm hammering on this: I am )

[Ben X]

http://www.worldofmi.com/features/interview/gilbert.php

Has Ron Gilbert sold out !?

Ron is talking about a Special Edition style re-release with new graphics and voices, not a ToMI style sequel. So he hasn't sold out by consulting on ToMI, but he has changed his mind about the idea of a Special Edition.

On the subject of MI2's ending, I suspect Ron was planning to make a third game, and so put the lightning/spell stuff in as a cliffhanger and to give himself somewhere to go. I think he wanted to have his 'imagination twist' cake and eat it. What I would be interested to see, if we ever got The Real Monkey Island 3 from Ron, would be how he decided to balance the imagination twist, which he had been setting up throughout the two games, vs the 'this is real' Caribbean stuff.

[Thrik]

I suppose what makes the whole situation so tricky is that the game was totally set up to culminate in this reveal, and it was altered right at the last minute in a pretty cheap way. The fact that this happened isn't even up for dispute.

I completely subscribe to MI2 having being ended in a way that allows the series to continue in the same piratey way as before — as Tiller said, the eyes and Elaine quote were a get-out clause for Ron (or whoever) should they decide to use it. Heck, maybe they had to include it as per LucasArts management's will.

But come on, the maintenance tunnel that looks exactly like the Disney World tunnels? The Disney E ticket? The lift that goes up to Melee Island? The broken grog machine from Melee Island down there in a storage room? The character suits hung up on the wall? The lost/found room? And the endless little anachronisms throughout the game, albeit mostly a lot more subtle?

Yeah, it can all be explained away by the 'voodoo curse'. But come on. MI2 left it ambiguous but clearly slanted towards the imagination thing, and then CMI took that cue and solidified the 'it was a spell' thing as canon. As long you're not denying the imagination thing was totally intentional for much/all of MI1/MI2's development I've no argument here.

[ThunderPeel2001]

What people say in interviews is irrelevant. All that matters is what is in the body of the game, and in the game it's obviously left to be deliberately ambiguous. Maybe it's all a boy's imagination, maybe it's a spell. To say that either case is demonstrably true would be a very presumptuous in my opinion.

Whaaaat? The game clearly states, as canon, that it's a CURSE. Sure, it might have been a cheap "get out" clause so that they could have their "imagination ending" without killing any sequels, but it's still clearly canon. Damn, I wish Ron or Dave or Tim would just clear this up for once and for all... it's been a LONG time.

I suppose what makes the whole situation so tricky is that the game was totally set up to culminate in this reveal, and it was altered right at the last minute in a pretty cheap way. The fact that this happened isn't even up for dispute.

I have to say, for all the game's surreal elements (the bone song, etc.), I can't agree that the game was "clearly set up to culminate in this reveal". Anachronisms are easy comedy fodder, so I don't take them as "evidence". I mean SOMI, CMI and EMI all contain anachronisms, but that doesn't mean everyone playing those games is suddenly thinking... "wait, is this all fake?!". They sit nicely within the game world.

I'm sure there must be other evidence, though. What else is there?

Edited July 6, 2009 by ThunderPeel2001

[thorn]

Yeah, it can all be explained away by the 'voodoo curse'. But come on. MI2 left it ambiguous but clearly slanted towards the imagination thing, and then CMI took that cue and solidified the 'it was a spell' thing as canon. As long you're not denying the imagination thing was totally intentional for much/all of MI1/MI2's development I've no argument here.

No-one's suggesting that the imagination thing wasn't an intentional setup. I'm just suggesting that the imagination thing is only a plot twist. Not the final plot twist. I believe that Ron was going somewhere but didn't get a chance to show us where.

[Thrik]

I was mostly referring to the whole ending sequence when I said culminate, which is where the little anachronisms and such went from being a quirky touch to full-on weirdness.

As I said though, I'm not trying to say this is how the series' story should be taken or anything — as far as I'm concerned what was in the later games is fine, giant monkey robots and all. It's just really obvious they were going with the theme park imagination thing in the first two IMO, and I'm not sure whether or not you're disagreeing with that?

But yeah thorn, maybe... but what really is there to reveal? I can't for the life of me think of anything he could have done after that ending to wrap it all together neatly, at least not any better than CMI did. Seems like it'd be the ultimate hype-and-disappointment to me.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I was mostly referring to the whole ending sequence when I said culminate, which is where the little anachronisms and such went from being a quirky touch to full-on weirdness.

But as soon as Guybrush falls Big Whoop is opened and the Curse begins... Anything after that moment is part of that curse. Besides, you said "the game" was culminating towards that sequence. What else is there?

But yeah thorn, maybe... but what really is there to reveal? I can't for the life of me think of anything he could have done after that ending to wrap it all together neatly, at least not any better than CMI did. Seems like it'd be the ultimate hype-and-disappointment to me.

Yeah, I have to agree here. Unless Ron was planning on trying some sort of clever "is it real?, is it fantasy?" struggle for Guybrush, but really we'd end up back in CMI at some point.

[thorn]

Yeah, I have to agree here. Unless Ron was planning on trying some sort of clever "is it real?, is it fantasy?" struggle for Guybrush, but really we'd end up back in CMI at some point.

Yeah, you're probably right. I'd still like to have seen how he would have done it.

Plus, given that MI1 and MI2 are among the best adventure games ever made (even when you take them as stand-alone games) I'd like to have seen what he'd saved up for the third and final part.

[Udvarnoky]

This is an unmistakable claim that Ron himself is the mastermind behind this behaviour.

You're crazy. I think the way Gilbert handles the situation is irresponsible, not malicious. However innocuous his intent, "Ron is God" forum trolls are nevertheless the direct result. He is fueling that kind of behavior. As far as me seeing him as some mastermind who does it for kicks or to stroke his ego, that's just you imagining things I never said.

[DanJW]

When I first played MI2 I got the impression that both worlds existed - the pirate world and the fairground world. Each is real when you are in it, and the nature of the other is subjective.

But yeah having the pirate world be not real is only a step away from "it was a all a dream" and kinda devalues the whole thing. I'm pretty sure any hypothetical third game would have had to find some way to return to the pirate world as status quo.

[Thyroid]

Here's something everyone will agree on: I think it really demonstrates how powerful Monkey Island's hold is when you're still discussing it passionately almost twenty years on. Isn't that the point of all great art?

[ThunderPeel2001]

Here's something everyone will agree on: I think it really demonstrates how powerful Monkey Island's hold is when you're still discussing it passionately almost twenty years on. Isn't that the point of all great art?

I disagree!

(Just kidding)