anime

[Twig]

So what we're saying here is that all anime should be Mushishi

yeppers!

 

 

I've never watched a single episode of Dragon Ball.... Is this something I should try to fix? Or with something do labyrinth plot wise am I better off staying well clear.

Haha no probably not, unless you're into the archetypal shounen. The plot is definitely not even remotely labyrinthine. The first part (i.e., Dragon Ball proper, before the Z) is a good mix of comedy and action, but the plot is essentially: fight dudes, fight stronger dudes, fight even stronger dudes. The second part (i.e., Z), is more on the side of action, and the plot is essentially: the same. There's also a lot of it. 

 

Honestly if you were interested, I'd probably recommend just reading the Dragon Ball manga until you're bored, rather than watching the anime. Less filler, etc.

 

All that said, I fuckin' love it and I ain't ashamed y'all can eat it!

 

Also, I have been playing a good deal of Dragon Ball Xenoverse, the newest DB game where you get to create your own character (choosing from five available DB races!!!) and travel through time righting the wrongs that some other evil-doing time travelers have created in an attempt to fuck up the timeline. That's right. It's GREAT.

[Gormongous]

I feel like the comedy equivalent of Potato-kun is the voice of reason guy. Again I didn't watch enough of Haruhi Suzumiya no Yuutsu to make this claim universally (this is becoming a trend. I just don't have enough time to watch anime I feel like I wouldn't like), but the main character is reacting to the crazy antics of haruhi and co. in a way that seems to be what the audience should be thinking, and for some reason he's always present no matter what to conveniently provide tsukkomi in a way that makes it seem like he has the only legitimate, reliable perception among a mostly female cast, who each have some kind of personality infliction. He (invariably he) is always present, no matter how much he complains, to act as a floating perspective point. This is also what I found appalling about Chuunibyou (the first two or three episodes have exactly that plot).

 

This isn't haruhi but...

 

 

It's probably a symptom of the bigger trope of "the only rational guy in the room" but that's been done in a way that isn't gendered, like in Arakawa Under the Bridge.

 

Well, with The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Kyon's presentation as the only rational guy is heavily compromised by his position as the viewpoint character. They have less facility in keeping it up during the second season and the movie, but especially in the first Kyon's definitely lying through omission and misdirection to obscure information about himself and about Haruhi.

 

And then KyoAni went and applied that formula to a dozen other shows, with equal commercial if not critical success, proving that the effectiveness of it in Haruhi is not its thematic depth but just the simple dynamic of a rational dude dealing with irrational women. I think that's a lot of what we've been talking about today, good tropes that are digested by the furious hunger of the anime industry into the bare minimum of what works and then repeated over and over like they're printing money. I certainly got off of the KyoAni wagon after Chuunibyou, because it was such a cynical formula that couldn't even claim to be fun, but I'm sure there are plenty other shows employing different "formulas" that I haven't reached saturation yet.

 

That clip is terrible. Is all of Nyaruko that terrible? Generic character designs, a funny joke papered over with lore, animation that tries to tell you the emotion of a given moment...

[BobbyBesar]

Hmm.

 

I'm watching the first episode of Kill La Kill. I had no idea what it was at all going into it.

 

The Netflix edition is mercifully subtitled. Yay!

 

It's always interesting to me the extent to which they filter different kinds of stories through the lens of high school politics. Obviously high school has its own grip on American popular culture, and for various cultural reasons, I could postulate why the effect would be more pronounced, but it's interesting to note regardless.

 

Close-reading is always hazardous, but the power of sexuality bestowed in the form of a sailor suit is...interesting.

 

It's also interesting to see how Trigger has maintained a lot of what I would consider the Gainax "house style", as they're former Gainax employees.

[Blambo]

Well, with The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Kyon's presentation as the only rational guy is heavily compromised by his position as the viewpoint character. They have less facility in keeping it up during the second season and the movie, but especially in the first Kyon's definitely lying through omission and misdirection to obscure information about himself and about Haruhi.

And then KyoAni went and applied that formula to a dozen other shows, with equal commercial if not critical success, proving that the effectiveness of it in Haruhi is not its thematic depth but just the simple dynamic of a rational dude dealing with irrational women. I think that's a lot of what we've been talking about today, good tropes that are digested by the furious hunger of the anime industry into the bare minimum of what works and then repeated over and over like they're printing money. I certainly got off of the KyoAni wagon after Chuunibyou, because it was such a cynical formula that couldn't even claim to be fun, but I'm sure there are plenty other shows employing different "formulas" that I haven't reached saturation yet.

That clip is terrible. Is all of Nyaruko that terrible? Generic character designs, a funny joke papered over with lore, animation that tries to tell you the emotion of a given moment...

I wouldn't be able to tell you if nyaruko gets better or worse because I couldn't get past the first two episodes. The inane formula seems to work though, since during the time I was giving it a shot I kept listening to the theme song after I stopped watching and glancing furtively at the OP animation in guilty, self-conscious moe indulgence. It's fucking catchy. And if I remember correctly Norio Wakamoto sang it in some video and it was funny.

And yeah, I do guess all of this is perpetuated by the wheels of capitalism crushing art into fine, adorable bonedust. I'm sincerely sorry to just be using these two pages to rag on moe as a stereotype (and also anime in general). It's probably just that I haven't been exposed to moe being used in a context that isn't either perfunctory, pointless, lazy, socially questionable, or exploitative, (other than like, nichijou or azumanga daioh) but that's probably a function of my having no patience with it. I'm not sure what iteration of the KyoAni moe machine Chuunibyou is in, but when it's made explicit like this:

Yuuta...it huuurts...

I can't help but project that pretty unambiguous intent to minimize a character everywhere I see big eyes and little mouths.

[Gormongous]

Chuunibyou is so bad, though. I don't know anyone who actually enjoys it, rather than tolerating it out of some duty to watch all the "big" shows in a given season. I watched the first two seasons on the strength of my misguided loyalty to KyoAni, but there's almost nothing redeeming there. Even the thing that initially drew me to the show, Rikka's character design, is almost certainly ripped off of Another, which is an anime that actually uses its moe trappings to draw the audience into the horror story it's telling. Checking... yep! The manga adaptation of Another began in May 2010, the light novels for Chuunibyou started in June 2011. I'm going to go ahead and call shenanigans.

 

I think we can probably both agree that moe elements exist in a lot of non-moe anime and we don't really notice because they generally work. It's shows that lead with (or are defined by) moe that have an uphill battle to fight with viewers like you, who aren't accustomed to taking on faith (and perhaps rightly so) that the moe's doing something important and not just being titillation. I realize that there are only a handful of shows (Girls und Panzer, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, K-On!, A Certain Scientific Railgun, WataMote, C3-Bu, parts of Penguindrum, parts of Bakemonogatari, I'm already running out of steam here!) for which moe serves a purpose like that, and that the majority are like Chuunibyou, Nyaruko, Non Non Biyori (also looks awful), and Tamako Market (I got bored of thinking up shows for this list almost immediately, so I just pulled one out of a hat and gave up) that are just using anime for its currency among otaku and its proven earning potential. I don't think I could ask anyone to wade through the latter to find the former, especially if they don't like the aesthetic itself.

 

Speaking of, I'm glad that you weren't turned off by KILL la KILL, CL! As I've reflected over the past year or so, I've come to think that maybe I like that show a lot and that my problems with it would be invisible on a binge-watching schedule. Do report back after watching more!

[Blambo]

Ah I saw Watamote. I felt less protective of Tomoko and more...pity and embarrassment, which I guess I can see how having a sort of cute character wracked by social anxiety helps bring home how debilitating it is. It kind of reminds me of the manga Oyasumi Punpun where the main characters are deliberately cute to produce a dissonance with the horrible events of the story, as well as to let the audience project onto punpun. In this though the author leans hard on the dissonance, where he depicts the world in a kind of supremely ugly realism that reflects punpun's constant disenchantment. I guess manga can take greater risks than anime can, though Punpun wasn't exactly something slated for a franchise or anything.

K-On has a point? My friend keeps telling me that it's all (really really well made) fluffy happy fun without any emotional or aesthetic takeaway. I see it as the logical endpoint of the moe train.

Non Non Biyori actually initiated the original conversation I had with my friend. I could've been great if it weren't for the needlessly flashy, generic character design and flat, shitty personalities. It's billed as a slow, atmospheric story about a girl adjusting to country life, but it's just not that. Because the whole tone of the show was so mellow and sleepy, all that was left was pure distilled moe and the theater of shallow stereotypes, and so the conclusion I came to was that the reason why people watch this show is precisely because of this watching porcelain dolls act out perfect little lives with tiny adorable flaws and quirks, and it just reeked of a fantasy that only a dude would have. If its goal was actually to show the quirks and life in the countryside, it definitely didn't hit it. Barakamon hit it 1000% better.

I've been meaning to watch Kill la Kill since everyone seems to like it. It seems out of control, and Ive always liked weird stuff.

[Gormongous]

K-On has a point? My friend keeps telling me that it's all (really really well made) fluffy happy fun without any emotional or aesthetic takeaway. I see it as the logical endpoint of the moe train.

 

Yeah, you're right. K-On! does moe really well, and most of its expressions of it aren't derivative, but it doesn't really have a point beyond cultivating a certain aesthetic. I just like it a lot anyway and lost track of why I was making the list.

 

I've just realized the irony of having this conversation while my user title is "Unbreakable Machine Doll," which I just have because I like the cadence of the words but is one of those "enjoy perfect little girls living perfect little lives" anime that Blambo's criticizing. I'll have to change it back to "All-Purpose Cultural Cat Girl Nuku Nuku" sooner or later, anyway.

[Gaizokubanou]

Kill La Kill is life.  I'm still salty that Twig hated it.

[Twig]

Kill La Kill is life.  I'm still salty that Twig hated it.

???

 

I uh don't hate Kill la Kill?

[BadHat]

I just started watching Kill la Kill and WOW does the animation take a nosedive in episode four or WHAT.

 

I really love the style of this show about 90% of the time but it seems like they rely on some cheap techniques here and there, presumably to save their budget for the really big stuff. I nearly barfed when it switched into cel-shaded 3D for a bit because oh my god I hate this in anime now. Like I get that studios can't afford to hand-draw every little thing, so it doesn't bother me if it's just background details, but every time it's used to animate a prominent foreground object I just... 

[Twig]

Episode four was when I decided I loved Kill la Kill. ):

[BobbyBesar]

Holy shit. Episode 7 of Kill la Kill. (The Fight Club episode.)

 

I actually very nearly turned it off halfway through episode 1, because I was thinking "ok, school club rumble, yeah, that's something I've never seen before *fartnoise*". I sort of just left it on because it was late and I didn't want to start a movie. Also, the visuals were exuberant and varied enough that it was at least not boring to look at.

 

But man, once it gets going, the social commentary is just layers and layers..

 

Obviously I'm liking it enough that I'm still watching it.

[Codicier]

So what we're saying here is that all anime should be Tatami Galaxy and every anime studio must be given a Murakami book.

 

I'm not a big fan of Tatami Galaxy, and i've never read a Murakami book so sadly i can't really comment there. 

 

We probably agree, so long as your argument isn't that getting rid of moe is what'll shock anime back to life. There's a lot of lazy writing and art in the world of anime, relying on iteration, franchise, and shortcuts to sustain itself. With publishers becoming increasingly risk-adverse, it probably can't last forever.

 

My issue is that anime has become increasingly insular and risk averse, just at the time where it need to be becoming bolder and trying to broaden its market. That as it audience grows older it doesn't offer them stories that reflect their life as adults but instead continues to smothers everything in the soft comforting embrace of Moe.

It's like someone carrying a safety blanket around with them and not realise why it make everyone else look strangely at them.

 

I'm actually encouraged that people like Netflix have picked up things like Kill La Kill because really anime companies need to be reaching out and getting more viewers from a wider demographic not selling single Blue Rays for more than the average western TV boxset.

 

speaking of which

 

 

I just started watching Kill la Kill and WOW does the animation take a nosedive in episode four or WHAT.

 

I really love the style of this show about 90% of the time but it seems like they rely on some cheap techniques here and there, presumably to save their budget for the really big stuff. I nearly barfed when it switched into cel-shaded 3D for a bit because oh my god I hate this in anime now. Like I get that studios can't afford to hand-draw every little thing, so it doesn't bother me if it's just background details, but every time it's used to animate a prominent foreground object I just...  

 

I'm almost unsure if we are watching the same thing, Episode 4 of KLK was full of moments where animation short-cuts are used for comic effect but i don't remember any cell shaded 3d & the whole "STREPOWER!" sequence & the "fake academy" moments  in particular were great.

 

In fact thank you for the excuse to watching it & laugh myself silly again

 

Edit: I ended up enjoying it so much I just watched another episode, & i'm about to start another I don't think this is ending till I'm done with a full rewatch

[Twig]

also http://www.buzzfeed.com/danmeth/this-american-is-one-of-the-only-non-japanese-working-in-ani#.gsyEqbYZW

[N1njaSquirrel]

I just started watching Kill la Kill and WOW does the animation take a nosedive in episode four or WHAT.

 

I agree with twig, ep 4 was when I fell in love with it too.

 

 

I really love the style of this show about 90% of the time but it seems like they rely on some cheap techniques here and there, presumably to save their budget for the really big stuff. I nearly barfed when it switched into cel-shaded 3D for a bit because oh my god I hate this in anime now. Like I get that studios can't afford to hand-draw every little thing, so it doesn't bother me if it's just background details, but every time it's used to animate a prominent foreground object I just... 

 

It's a double-edged sword. Not having CG will make your show static, which will disinterest the viewer. CG makes action easier and faster, as well as more dynamic, so you can do more things. Sometimes CG can be so good it's hardly noticeable, like in the EVA films and i remember that fujiko anime having really inconspicuous CG.

 

Personally I don't mind the CG, but I could have just gotten used to it.

[tegan]

Brad Bird just needs to set up some kind of Speedtree type deal where he sells whatever tech made The Iron Giant have deliberately imperfect linework, because that shit still looks good. That and more studios should consider resisting the urge to run their CG at the full available 24fps and instead force it to run at 8-12fps like their hand animation.

[BadHat]

Well fine, I hereby retract my opinion on episode 4. 

 

Sometimes CG can be so good it's hardly noticeable, like in the EVA films

 

I think we have differing definitions of "hardly noticeable."

 

That and more studios should consider resisting the urge to run their CG at the full available 24fps and instead force it to run at 8-12fps like their hand animation.

 

They just need to make a feature film that uses the same animation technique as Guilty Gear Xrd.

[Gaizokubanou]

???

 

I uh don't hate Kill la Kill?

 

What?  Hmm I thought it was you, maybe I just completely mixed you up with someone else (someone with drunk looking BubbleBubble dino as avatar)

[Twig]

that'd be synthetic gerbil i think i've never had that avatar

[Gaizokubanou]

that'd be synthetic gerbil i think i've never had that avatar

 

Oh yeah.  Oops

 

They just need to make a feature film that uses the same animation technique as Guilty Gear Xrd.

 

Everytime I watch footage of Xrd, I think it's just combination of really good cel-shading and having highly controlled & relatively 'stiff' animations (opposite would be 'floaty', like say poor quality flash animation or any cheap 2d sprite animation based on bones)  to make it look more old school than it is.  Like some motions look stiffer than say, 3rd Strike and that has to be intentional because getting 'floaty' motion (often what really kills poor 3d animation) is really easy to achieve if you try to make things look smooth.

[Twig]

Okay I marathoned Chihayafuru 2 the past few days and it continued to be good. Shame about lack of new episodes but it actually ended better than a lot of things do these days, so it's not too bad. Hurray!

 

Not sure what i'm gonna move on to next... Maybe I'll take a break from the ol' anime train. Well, besides currently-airing junk.

[BobbyBesar]

So, I ended up watching all of Kill La Kill today. It's pretty good.

 

It does a lot of very smart things. Even the way it evolved from the first episode to the last episode is well handled. I actually considered giving up on it the first time it jumps the shark (I think around the Naturals Election), but I'm happy I didn't. I sometimes have a problem with that kind of plot / power level escalation (and I think its' actually exacerbated by binge-watching?), and this came very close to triggering it. Knowing it was a very limited series helped me decide to stick with it. It's kind of amazing how much they managed to pack into individual episodes, several times at the end of the episode I looked back at what happened in the previous episode and was amazed at how far it managed to come in 22 minutes.

 

It does a very good job of hitting cliches, lamp-shading them, and subverting them in equal measure all while without ever becoming annoying about it. This is probably the case for almost all interesting anime these days, but I feel like you need a pretty good sense of the medium going in in order to really make any sense of it. It would be really hard to use to introduce somebody to anime (although I guess it gets dismissed as just weirdness for that kind of audience).

 

I laughed out loud a good number of times throughout the series, which isn't that common for me, and the show was very very good at "Fuck yeah!" moments. The music was also pretty well handled, outside of the first opening and closing themes which were about as generic "anime theme" as I can imagine.

 

There are several things about it that made me think of Bayonetta. I don't really have a point there though.

 

I didn't really have a problem with varying animation quality between episodes, or even really notice it. It's something I sort of accept as part of the medium, and in something like this, with fairly varied visuals to begin with, I usually chalk it up to an artistic decision rather than a financial one.

 

I have a private joke that eventually any comic / manga / anime that goes on long enough ends up in space, and I'm entertained that this barely made it in under the wire.

 

Also, I think there was some speculation upthread about Makoi's sexuality? I'd probably need a very close reading of Mako's last speech to interpret how it was meant to have an opinion.

[Twig]

ore like STUDIO triggering it

[BobbyBesar]

ore like STUDIO triggering it

I did some edits to my previous post while you were reading it probably?

 

In any case, I don't get what you're referring to...

[Twig]

this came very close to triggering it

more like STUDIO triggering it

 

i suppose my typo didn't help...