Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

[lethalenforcer]

Hot damn, I forgot about that moment. Good catch.

[purps]

5 minutes ago, pyide said:

 

 

That is sort of what it felt like, the brunt of episode 18 not having much in relation to the previous parts and threads aside from the opening scene with the Fireman, which we don't even know when takes place in relation to the other events. Probably doesn't even matter when and where, seemed out of space and time when we first saw it, being so visually different from all previous Twin Peaks up to that point.

 

Even if there's not another full series that continues from there, it would be nice to get a follow up movie that goes deeper into and perhaps out of that nightmare alongside New Coop / Richard and Cassie / Laura. Although I have to imagine Lynch and Frost would be mostly content leaving Twin Peaks on that moment forever.

The ending feels specifically designed to work as both a cliffhanger in the case that they get to do more, and a ending if they don't. 

[anoldtoilet]

On 9/6/2017 at 8:16 AM, pabosher said:

 

Nor do I, really, but my girlfriend noted straight away when ‘Coop’ left the room into Glastonbury grove that he seemed different. What if it was a different Coop? What if his promise to Janey-E and Sonny Jim was honest, when he said he’d come home to them?

I think this has something to do with the sex magic angle from The Secret History. From wikipedia, describing Choronzon from Aleister Crowley's sex magic ritual:

Choronzon /ˌkoʊˌroʊnˈzoʊn/ is a demon or devil that originated in writing with the 16th-century occultists Edward Kelley and John Dee within the latter's occult system of Enochian magic. In the 20th century he became an important element within the mystical system of Thelema, founded by Aleister Crowley, where he is the "dweller in the abyss",^[1][2] believed to be the last great obstacle between the adept and enlightenment. Thelemites believe that if he is met with proper preparation, then his function is to destroy the ego, which allows the adept to move beyond the abyss of occult cosmology.

Seems like they fucked, which destroyed their egos (perhaps Diane's unsuccessfully or in an incomplete manner, which is why she left and fell into the abyss of the manufactured judy world), allowing Coop to move beyond the abyss.

[Persistence of 3]

14 minutes ago, pyide said:

 

 

That is sort of what it felt like, the brunt of episode 18 not having much in relation to the previous parts and threads aside from the opening scene with the Fireman, which we don't even know when takes place in relation to the other events. Probably doesn't even matter when and where, seemed out of space and time when we first saw it, being so visually different from all previous Twin Peaks up to that point.

 

Even if there's not another full series that continues from there, it would be nice to get a follow up movie that goes deeper into and perhaps out of that nightmare alongside New Coop / Richard and Cassie / Laura. Although I have to imagine Lynch and Frost would be mostly content leaving Twin Peaks on that moment forever.

 

Both season 1 and 2 ended with a card that read 'TO BE CONTINUED'. Season 3 did not. Plus, the aforementioned absence of electrical sound over the final Lunch/Frost logo suggests to me that its done.

[lethalenforcer]

4 minutes ago, Persistence of 3 said:

 

Both season 1 and 2 ended with a card that read 'TO BE CONTINUED'. Season 3 did not. Plus, the aforementioned absence of electrical sound over the final Lunch/Frost logo suggests to me that its done.

 

The persistence of Frost's upcoming book being labeled as his "final take" on TP also leads me to believe it's over, but perhaps they just mean via his self-written book format. I'd absolutely love to see one more thing - whether it's a shortened season or movie. I just don't see it happening.

 

That being said, Lynch clearly loves that world so I wouldn't be surprised to see him want to jump back in again.

[Frohike]

1 hour ago, SkullKid said:

I laid out my theory above, but basically I feel the opening scene with the Giant takes place in the moment where time stops and the Cooper face overlay happens. All of the Giant's clues deal with the events that directly follow that moment. 

 

I had a simpler reading of that moment. The overlay happens when all of the Fireman's clues are about to come together and really can't until Cooper has this first epiphany that effectively unhinges him from the reality of the scene. He's present but also has a larger awareness, seemingly out of time, of what is occurring.  Are the Fireman's hints happening at precisely that point in time? I... don't see why not, but I'm not sure that piece of temporal continuity is particularly important in the context of the registers of time & reality that Cooper begins to understand at that moment.

[BonusWavePilot]

13 hours ago, Ford said:

Here's a quick theory on the end of episodes 17-18. In episode 17 when Cooper's face superimposes against the screen it represents a split in time. We are allowed to see one of these splits play out with Cooper going back to the lodge with the purpose of fulfilling his plan to save Laura and find Judy (two birds-one stone). Going into the lodge he remembers the Fireman's clues (430, Richard and Linda, Two birds one stone). He eventually travels (as Cooper) the 430 miles to some rip in time. When he enters the rip in time, he and Diane split. This is evidenced by Diane seeing another image of herself and the fact that at the hotel Cooper says things could change. In the hotel, we no longer are seeing Cooper - it is Richard. Richard doesn't remember the things the Giant told him, this is why he is so baffled by the note left in the morning. He only has a vague memory of himself, and some conditioned objective to find "Laura Palmer". We see Richard's personality change in the hotel, because he is a different person. Eventually they wind up at Laura's house and the ending. What we don't see, is that "Richard", conditioned to find Judy, and having already found Laura, will continue to lose his identity as Cooper and end up being Mr. C who will go back into the lodge and become Mr. C. Mr. C who has a conditioned need to find Judy for some unknown reason, which is a remnant of Cooper's original plan.

 

Hmmm, I like this theory except for the Mr C stuff...  I think Coop is acting differently from the moment he emerges from the lodge: it is most obvious after he and Diane 'pass through', but even his interaction with her immediately upon emerging is quite un-Coop-like.  The kiss before they cross for example already seems strange and uncomfortable... 

That said, it is definitely the sex scene with Diane that most drives it home - Coop's blank face and near-immobile participation are a hell of a counterpoint to Dougie and Janey-e's scene with Dougie's equally passive, but considerably more joyful interaction.  Actually, in a way, the scene with Diane is what I was afraid the scene with Janey was going to be (sans the silly floppy arms) until the camera showed Dougie's face.

[ThatThomas]

9 hours ago, Persistence of 3 said:

 

Both season 1 and 2 ended with a card that read 'TO BE CONTINUED'. Season 3 did not. Plus, the aforementioned absence of electrical sound over the final Lunch/Frost logo suggests to me that its done.

 

You're saying at the time? Because the bluray versions don't end with TO BE CONTINUED as far as I can tell?

[mikemariano]

47 minutes ago, ThatThomas said:

 

You're saying at the time? Because the bluray versions don't end with TO BE CONTINUED as far as I can tell?

 

Whoa.

 

[Nordelnob]

21 hours ago, Ford said:

Here's a quick theory on the end of episodes 17-18. In episode 17 when Cooper's face superimposes against the screen it represents a split in time. We are allowed to see one of these splits play out with Cooper going back to the lodge with the purpose of fulfilling his plan to save Laura and find Judy (two birds-one stone). Going into the lodge he remembers the Fireman's clues (430, Richard and Linda, Two birds one stone). He eventually travels (as Cooper) the 430 miles to some rip in time. When he enters the rip in time, he and Diane split. This is evidenced by Diane seeing another image of herself and the fact that at the hotel Cooper says things could change. In the hotel, we no longer are seeing Cooper - it is Richard. Richard doesn't remember the things the Giant told him, this is why he is so baffled by the note left in the morning. He only has a vague memory of himself, and some conditioned objective to find "Laura Palmer". We see Richard's personality change in the hotel, because he is a different person. Eventually they wind up at Laura's house and the ending. What we don't see, is that "Richard", conditioned to find Judy, and having already found Laura, will continue to lose his identity as Cooper and end up being Mr. C who will go back into the lodge and become Mr. C. Mr. C who has a conditioned need to find Judy for some unknown reason, which is a remnant of Cooper's original plan.

Oh god damn it. I kind of love this.

I always thought the dopples were just some inherent shadow form that everyone has though. I guess that could be wrong though.

[Nordelnob]

12 hours ago, anoldtoilet said:

Here's a neat scene where Mrs. Tremond appears to Donna and Coop as someone completely different, as in episode 18, and then hands them the missing page from Laura's diary.

Yeah, I was also reminded of this scene in the ending of 18. Watching it now, it feels REALLY similar. 

[SkullKid]

That Donna clip also does a good job of showing that Cooper wasn't always chipper and quirky. He was sometimes grave, serious, like the one we see in Odessa in part 18. 

[MechE]

Of all the theories around the ending I've read, this one seems be the most compelling. It's not without it's flaws but pretty consistent with the finer details of episode 18 and provides a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the TP story.

 

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

[Gamebeast23456]

I really don't emotionally like the idea that Cooper isn't directly Cooper. I feel like it would be Lynch utterly wasting our time if the finale was about anyone other than the spirits of Cooper, Diane, and Laura. I think Richard is Cooper, Linda is Diane, etc. I think it is important that Lynch is retelling Cooper's hero's journey one last time, and obliterating, without a shadow of a doubt, the idea of his brand of heroism. It just doesn't work in the world of Twin Peaks. We love Dale, we want him to finally succeed, but it seems vitally important for us to understand that he just can't. How could you defeat the profiteers of pain and suffering? 

 

That's what I adore in the final scene of episode 18. The final realization for Dale Cooper's soul of what he's done, of what his singleminded pursuit of justice or 'goodness' has cost him. It feels like a very cathartic moment, even though it also hurts and is disorienting and scary. That moment of realization where Cooper's perfect posture just crumples  and all he can ask is "what year is it" is perfect to me, and only matters if this is Dale Cooper.  

 

David Lynch didn't go soft where it counts. 

[Guts]

3 hours ago, MechE said:

Of all the theories around the ending I've read, this one seems be the most compelling. It's not without it's flaws but pretty consistent with the finer details of episode 18 and provides a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the TP story.

 

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

 

Pretty interesting, I prefer the idea that it is a prison created by Judy instead of a trap created by the fireman. Mostly because of the way Laura was removed from coopers grasp with the scream. But either way, I think there are some good points.

 

.. another thought, the headlights that passed them on the highway, Judy figures out where they are headed rushes ahead to set up a false front, but can't help using the same fake names.

[purps]

3 hours ago, MechE said:

Of all the theories around the ending I've read, this one seems be the most compelling. It's not without it's flaws but pretty consistent with the finer details of episode 18 and provides a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the TP story.

 

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

There are a lot of interesting ideas in there. One thing that stuck out to me was drawing a line between the two teens sex scene in the box room and Cooper/Diane's sex scene. Interesting t think about.  And I totally see Sarah and Judy being linked in some way. 

 

But I just can't see the ending as a victory. Emotionally it just doesn't match, it feels so bleak. Like something has gone horribly wrong. The final image of Laura whispering in Cooper's ear and his reaction being horrified at what he is hearing. Doesn't track that the actual secret meaning of that is "we destroyed the ultimate evil!"

 

I also don't see this alternate world we end up in as a place of the white lodge/fireman or whatever you want to call it. Everything we see in it is linked to evil. The diner named Judy's and the horrible violent people inside it. The white horse, which always seems to appear before something terrible happens (Laura being raped, Maddie's death etc.). Chalfont/Tremonds etc.

[Uschi]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 5:40 PM, DIANESAYSFUCKYOU said:

Agreed. I've lurked on this forum since somewhere ~ middle of second season of Chris and Jake's rewatch. Their and this dialogue has contributed tremendously to unpackaging this show for my first time. Thanks for putting it out there.

I think you mean let's rock

I just got around to finishing the finale (my apologies for being such a latecomer) but I second all of the above! This forum has significantly contributed to my enjoyment/understanding/guesstimating/theorizing/etc!!!

[pabosher]

1 hour ago, Guts said:

 

Pretty interesting, I prefer the idea that it is a prison created by Judy instead of a trap created by the fireman. Mostly because of the way Laura was removed from coopers grasp with the scream. But either way, I think there are some good points.

 

.. another thought, the headlights that passed them on the highway, Judy figures out where they are headed rushes ahead to set up a false front, but can't help using the same fake names.

 

I agree with the first part here, yeah: if it was a part of the Fireman's plan, he would have let Cooper take him into the red room (I guess that's where they were going, back to Glastonbury Grove?)

 

And that second part, I don't think is correct: I think that is literally just Lynch playing with expectations and creating tension.

[plasticflesh]

Doing a rewatch of season 3 after finishing the first watch, I can't help but see bad cooper as literally Richard looping back around into the story. Richard goes off to find Judy at the end of season 3... and then Mr C picks up right where he leaves off at the start of season 3, neck deep in his search for Judy.

[pabosher]

Just now, plasticflesh said:

Doing a rewatch of season 3 after finishing the first watch, I can't help but see bad cooper as literally Richard looping back around into the story. Richard goes off to find Judy at the end of season 3... and then Mr C picks up right where he leaves off at the start of season 3, neck deep in his search for Judy.

 

I kinda see where this is coming from, except we don't see any suggestion of BOB in Richard, but he's definitely there in BadCoop.

[plasticflesh]

Just now, pabosher said:

kinda see where this is coming from, except we don't see any suggestion of BOB in Richard, but he's definitely there in BadCoop.

I agree it's not an air tight read in that form. But if I extrapolate.... it could be that Richard goes through the Judy world and ends up in the red room and Dale Coopers doppelganger at the end of season 2, merging with Bob there. 

[plasticflesh]

So now to respond to the podcast's take on "evil" and "good" coop not being truly an evil or good coop. There is the Jungian psychology concept of "the shadow self" which is not good or evil, but is the aspects of a self or identity that an individual's ego does not accept or does not see utility in. So it shoves those aspects into "the shadow".

 

This I feel is legit read because episode two ends with a song that relies heavily on lyrics about "my shadow," this is also the episode that hammers home the Doppleganger existence.

[pabosher]

@Jake, I also believed that when Cole talks about his secret task force with Coop and Briggs, he was talking (unknowingly) about BadCoop. That then makes sense as to why BadCoop is chasing after Judy.

[plasticflesh]

https://medium.com/@onantiad/episodes-17-18-of-twin-peaks-the-return-are-meant-to-be-watched-in-sync-81352ce38e8

 

this is nuts ^

[pabosher]

WHAT IF BOB is the evil that men do....

 

 

 

anf Judy is the evil that women do????

 

🤔🤔🤔🤔

 

 

(my brain cannot stop thinking about that finale and occasionally spits out dumb shit like the above but I laughed at my own stupidity so thought y’all might too)