Twin Peaks Rewatch 52/53: The Return, Parts 17 and 18

[Guts]

3 hours ago, MechE said:

Of all the theories around the ending I've read, this one seems be the most compelling. It's not without it's flaws but pretty consistent with the finer details of episode 18 and provides a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the TP story.

 

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

 

Pretty interesting, I prefer the idea that it is a prison created by Judy instead of a trap created by the fireman. Mostly because of the way Laura was removed from coopers grasp with the scream. But either way, I think there are some good points.

 

.. another thought, the headlights that passed them on the highway, Judy figures out where they are headed rushes ahead to set up a false front, but can't help using the same fake names.

[purps]

3 hours ago, MechE said:

Of all the theories around the ending I've read, this one seems be the most compelling. It's not without it's flaws but pretty consistent with the finer details of episode 18 and provides a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the TP story.

 

http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

There are a lot of interesting ideas in there. One thing that stuck out to me was drawing a line between the two teens sex scene in the box room and Cooper/Diane's sex scene. Interesting t think about.  And I totally see Sarah and Judy being linked in some way. 

 

But I just can't see the ending as a victory. Emotionally it just doesn't match, it feels so bleak. Like something has gone horribly wrong. The final image of Laura whispering in Cooper's ear and his reaction being horrified at what he is hearing. Doesn't track that the actual secret meaning of that is "we destroyed the ultimate evil!"

 

I also don't see this alternate world we end up in as a place of the white lodge/fireman or whatever you want to call it. Everything we see in it is linked to evil. The diner named Judy's and the horrible violent people inside it. The white horse, which always seems to appear before something terrible happens (Laura being raped, Maddie's death etc.). Chalfont/Tremonds etc.

[Uschi]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 5:40 PM, DIANESAYSFUCKYOU said:

Agreed. I've lurked on this forum since somewhere ~ middle of second season of Chris and Jake's rewatch. Their and this dialogue has contributed tremendously to unpackaging this show for my first time. Thanks for putting it out there.

I think you mean let's rock

I just got around to finishing the finale (my apologies for being such a latecomer) but I second all of the above! This forum has significantly contributed to my enjoyment/understanding/guesstimating/theorizing/etc!!!

[pabosher]

1 hour ago, Guts said:

 

Pretty interesting, I prefer the idea that it is a prison created by Judy instead of a trap created by the fireman. Mostly because of the way Laura was removed from coopers grasp with the scream. But either way, I think there are some good points.

 

.. another thought, the headlights that passed them on the highway, Judy figures out where they are headed rushes ahead to set up a false front, but can't help using the same fake names.

 

I agree with the first part here, yeah: if it was a part of the Fireman's plan, he would have let Cooper take him into the red room (I guess that's where they were going, back to Glastonbury Grove?)

 

And that second part, I don't think is correct: I think that is literally just Lynch playing with expectations and creating tension.

[plasticflesh]

Doing a rewatch of season 3 after finishing the first watch, I can't help but see bad cooper as literally Richard looping back around into the story. Richard goes off to find Judy at the end of season 3... and then Mr C picks up right where he leaves off at the start of season 3, neck deep in his search for Judy.

[pabosher]

Just now, plasticflesh said:

Doing a rewatch of season 3 after finishing the first watch, I can't help but see bad cooper as literally Richard looping back around into the story. Richard goes off to find Judy at the end of season 3... and then Mr C picks up right where he leaves off at the start of season 3, neck deep in his search for Judy.

 

I kinda see where this is coming from, except we don't see any suggestion of BOB in Richard, but he's definitely there in BadCoop.

[plasticflesh]

Just now, pabosher said:

kinda see where this is coming from, except we don't see any suggestion of BOB in Richard, but he's definitely there in BadCoop.

I agree it's not an air tight read in that form. But if I extrapolate.... it could be that Richard goes through the Judy world and ends up in the red room and Dale Coopers doppelganger at the end of season 2, merging with Bob there. 

[plasticflesh]

So now to respond to the podcast's take on "evil" and "good" coop not being truly an evil or good coop. There is the Jungian psychology concept of "the shadow self" which is not good or evil, but is the aspects of a self or identity that an individual's ego does not accept or does not see utility in. So it shoves those aspects into "the shadow".

 

This I feel is legit read because episode two ends with a song that relies heavily on lyrics about "my shadow," this is also the episode that hammers home the Doppleganger existence.

[pabosher]

@Jake, I also believed that when Cole talks about his secret task force with Coop and Briggs, he was talking (unknowingly) about BadCoop. That then makes sense as to why BadCoop is chasing after Judy.

[plasticflesh]

https://medium.com/@onantiad/episodes-17-18-of-twin-peaks-the-return-are-meant-to-be-watched-in-sync-81352ce38e8

 

this is nuts ^

[pabosher]

WHAT IF BOB is the evil that men do....

 

 

 

anf Judy is the evil that women do????

 

🤔🤔🤔🤔

 

 

(my brain cannot stop thinking about that finale and occasionally spits out dumb shit like the above but I laughed at my own stupidity so thought y’all might too)

[Jake]

24 minutes ago, pabosher said:

WHAT IF BOB is the evil that men do....

 

 

 

anf Judy is the evil that women do????

 

🤔🤔🤔🤔

 

 

(my brain cannot stop thinking about that finale and occasionally spits out dumb shit like the above but I laughed at my own stupidity so thought y’all might too)

Hahaha get out of here with this. 

 

But maybe... 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

[The Great Went]

1 hour ago, Jake said:

Hahaha get out of here with this. 

 

But maybe... 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

 

Garmonbozia For Her. 

[brownbathrobe]

@Jake - The "weird furry beast tree hair puff" thing in the cage is just the back of Mr. C's head. He turns around (or is turned around) as he approaches the screen and is deposited with his back to the audience. We even get a zoom in on his ponytail holder before he turns around and sees the sheriff's station.

[brownbathrobe]

4 hours ago, plasticflesh said:

https://medium.com/@onantiad/episodes-17-18-of-twin-peaks-the-return-are-meant-to-be-watched-in-sync-81352ce38e8

 

this is nuts ^

Ohhhhhh boy... Guess I know what I'll be doing tonight!

[Rich lord]

There's so many echos of the rest of the show in part 18. But they are in such different contexts. There's Judy's diner, which is the ultimate evil in the other world. There's the homeowners, the Tremont's and Chalfont's, which are lodge spirits in the other world. There's Laura/Carrie, who only seems to relate visually. Cooper/Richard/Diane and Linda. There's things that aren't mentioned too, like the worlds largest Jackrabbit that's in Odessa. (I found this on another Twin Peaks forum). https://www.google.com/search?q=odessa+jackrabbits&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS757US757&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_qpzT15bWAhVW2GMKHURADY8Q_AUICigB&biw=1455&bih=863

 

The show doesn't really make any connections between these things, apart from them being named the same things. It really feels like that thing where something has a totally different context in a dream. Its hard to believe that the Judy's, Chalfont's, or the Jackrabbits, relate in any meaningful way with their doubles on the other side of the barrier. 

 

This feels somewhat backed up by the Wizard of Oz,  where the symbols from Dorothy's real life are re-interpreted into characters and places in Oz. It happens a bunch in the kinda sequel Return To Oz also. The weird thing with the end of Twin Peaks is that Cooper/Richard seems to encounter these symbols after he has waken up.

 

I always want to find meaning behind this obsessive doubling of things in Lynch's stuff. But I always come up short. I often think he just likes changing the symbology of things, and ramming it into a different context. It gives everything an incredibly mysterious feeling. Its like the other stuff he does. Its more textural than actually meaningful in any plot scene.

 

..........maybe?

 

Something I don't think I've seen pointed out. Remember those weird metal things that we first see(I think) in the bit where Naido throws the switch and is thrown up into the air? The Fireman also has one, and I think Jeffries is supposed to be inside one. There's a shot in Part 17, as the Fireman sends Evil Coop to the sheriffs station, where you see loads of these all jammed into a room. What are they! I can't help but see them as some kind of traffic control stations for all the electricity flying around, and I somewhat hate that. Anyone have any ideas on what they are? They seem important.

 

 

[The Great Went]

4 minutes ago, Rich lord said:

 

Something I don't think I've seen pointed out. Remember those weird metal things that we first see(I think) in the bit where Naido throws the switch and is thrown up into the air? The Fireman also has one, and I think Jeffries is supposed to be inside one. There's a shot in Part 17, as the Fireman sends Evil Coop to the sheriffs station, where you see loads of these all jammed into a room. What are they! I can't help but see them as some kind of traffic control stations for all the electricity flying around, and I somewhat hate that. Anyone have any ideas on what they are? They seem important.

 

 

 

I've seen a theory that they're this Nazi Bell thing that was supposed to channel another dimension or something, but pictures of the nazi thing don't really look like these things imo. Jeffries, to me, is definitely in a tea or coffee kettle of some kind, albeit one whose shape evokes the shape of those white lodge bell things. 

[marblize]

1 hour ago, Rich lord said:

There's a shot in Part 17, as the Fireman sends Evil Coop to the sheriffs station, where you see loads of these all jammed into a room. What are they!

 

There's a theory that the universe is shaped like this 

 

[pyide]

The year coming from the Odessa population sign, I don't know if those signs are updated that frequently. At least they weren't in the area I grew up in, far from Texas. It looked old and busted, too. So while it may have been accurate to the 2010 census,  it could have still been standing there when they filmed some years later. Unless someone from that area set the record straight?

I wouldn't put it past this production to be that meticulous and make their own sign. 

 

And perhaps my crummy town was just lazy or forgot to update the population and sign. It's a small detail in the episode that was a brief talking point on your podcast but it stands out to me, because we'd drive by our own population sign often, on the side of a main road. And as the years went by the traffic would be worse and new developments were going up everywhere, but the sign still showed the same old numbers. I think it was over a decade before they changed it (correlating with the new census every 10 years or so?) 

 

I know people want to figure out the year after hearing Cooper's line, but I don't know if a sign like that could pin it down precisely. Still might have been a reason for showing it instead of some other establishment of that specific location. 

[Jake]

2 minutes ago, pyide said:

The year coming from the Odessa population sign, I don't know if those signs are updated that frequently. At least they weren't in the area I grew up in, far from Texas. It looked old and busted, too. So while it may have been accurate to the 2010 census,  it could have still been standing there when they filmed some years later. Unless someone from that area set the record straight?

I wouldn't put it past this production to be that meticulous and make their own sign. 

 

And perhaps my crummy town was just lazy or forgot to update the population and sign. It's a small detail in the episode that was a brief talking point on your podcast but it stands out to me, because we'd drive by it frequently.   And as the years went by the traffic would be worse and new developments were going up everywhere, but the sign still showed the same old numbers. I think it was over a decade before they changed it (correlating with the new census every 10 years or so?) 

 

I know people want to figure out the year after hearing Cooper's line, but I don't know if a sign like that could pin it down precisely. Still might have been a reason for showing it instead of some other establishment of that specific location. 

 

Yep this is accurate as far as I can tell. I Google Street Viewed some city limits boundaries of Odessa Texas, and the number on the latest street view sign is the same as the 2010 population count.

 

It was a fun theory all the same

 

[pyide]

Good work, gumshoe!

 

Also wanted to say that I really enjoyed the podcast(s). I had been trying to avoid outside interpretations and explanations for a time after seeing the last two parts, but I've been more and more curious now that I've had some time to digest it on my own. It was great to hear what you guys thought as well, and refreshing that you weren't trying to connect all the dots with every single thing that happened like a lot of folks out there.

 

[Jake]

42 minutes ago, pyide said:

Good work, gumshoe!

 

Also wanted to say that I really enjoyed the podcast(s). I had been trying to avoid outside interpretations and explanations for a time after seeing the last two parts, but I've been more and more curious now that I've had some time to digest it on my own. It was great to hear what you guys thought as well, and refreshing that you weren't trying to connect all the dots with every single thing that happened like a lot of folks out there.

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

I just read this theory that DOES attempt to connect every single thing together. It doesn't ring emotionally true to me, to what I got out of the season, but it was still an interesting read: http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

(as I said at the end of the part 18 episode, it is rad and refreshing to have a television show on that can generate this much different thought, interpretation, writing. I love it.)

[pyide]

49 minutes ago, Jake said:

I just read this theory that DOES attempt to connect every single thing together. It doesn't ring emotionally true to me, to what I got out of the season, but it was still an interesting read: http://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/

 

(as I said at the end of the part 18 episode, it is rad and refreshing to have a television show on that can generate this much different thought, interpretation, writing. I love it.)

 

Yeah, it's great how open it is.

 

As for that one specifically, there's some interesting stuff in there but also a big discrepancy right away for me. He says Sarah smashes the picture of Laura after she screams and disappears in the forest, but that scene of Sarah is actually in between Cooper meeting her and leading her by the hand through the forest and her ultimate disappearance, not after. The editing and order of events seemed extremely deliberate.

 

I'm more inclined to believe it was Judy within Sarah sensing something was amiss as when Cooper initially intercepts Laura, as she no longer dies in that past the moment he literally takes her by the hand away from the meeting up with Ronette, Jacques, and Leo. And then in her extreme frustration at this (witnessed by all the horrific moaning leading up to, and then the photo smashing) for whatever reason, she tries to sabotage their plans by snatching Laura away herself to that alternate existence. With the supporting evidence being the scratchy noise before Laura disappears (it's in our house now) and the bloodcurdling scream. That was not really a sign of her being shepherded in by the white lodge lords to me.

 

And then of course you see Carrie had been working at Judy's, the classic #6 electrical pole near her house, and of course the Chalfonts and Tremonds inhabiting the Palmer house. All on the nose, but eh. A keep your friends close and enemies closer type situation? But then I'm left wondering why she even takes her away instead of killing her again if Laura is her ultimate potential downfall. Unless Judy can't kill her, at least not directly, for whatever reason. With Laura being the glowing orb of goodness or what have you, but she could probably influence her in some way or another. Carrie obviously had demons of her own in that world, and a dead guy on her sofa.

 

BOB / Leland kills Laura in FWWM when she puts on the ring which apparently denies the potential transference or possession. Can't begin to imagine the Judy / Sarah to Laura specifics. I liked Twin Peaks a little better when Sarah didn't have that weird throat gnashing ultimate evil monster in there. Here come the headaches again.

 

The thing is, the Fireman seemed to know all this this would happen as he gave Cooper some tips on where to cross over to this other place where Laura was taken. It's starting to feel like Windom Earle's grand game of chess now, good grief. But then again, we only know he was given that info at some point before Coop and Diane's road trip. Maybe it was even after Laura was taken, we only witness it out of time and space in the show as one of the very first scenes.

 

It's all a mess to me, and I really don't like trying to puzzle it out in this much detail, although I do like reading interpretations like that one in the link now that some time has passed. Just thought that one in particular got off on the wrong foot, but obviously no one is correct here, it's as valid as anything. And that's okay by me.

[Jake]

25 minutes ago, pyide said:

It's starting to feel like Windom Earle's grand game of chess now, good grief. But then again, we only know he was given that info at some point before Coop and Diane's road trip. Maybe it was even after Laura was taken, we only witness it out of time and space in the show as one of the very first scenes.

 

It's all a mess to me, and I really don't like trying to puzzle it out in this much detail, although I do like reading interpretations like that one in the link now that some time has passed. Just thought that one in particular got off on the wrong foot, but obviously no one is correct here, it's as valid as anything. And that's okay by me.

I feel the same way - I don't really find a lot of value in attempting to find a perfect puzzle, but I enjoy reading other peoples attempts because even if I don't fully prescribe to their theories it opens up new doors in my thinking about the show.

 

And yeah Windom Earle's ghost was all over season 3. I really think that in some ways Bad Coop was a second bite at the apple of Windom Earle. Earle was intended to be a foil/mirror/dark Cooper, he was just also stupid. The black and white chess pieces, etc etc etc. When Bad Coop busted out that Earle-esque briefcase computer it I was pretty destroyed. I liked the way all of the lore and insane plot machinations were handled with Bad Coop so much more than Earle, though; it's night and day when that stuff is filtered through David Lynch behind the camera (and when he and Frost are writing it instead of a rotating writers room).

[lethalenforcer]

9 hours ago, plasticflesh said:

https://medium.com/@onantiad/episodes-17-18-of-twin-peaks-the-return-are-meant-to-be-watched-in-sync-81352ce38e8

 

this is nuts ^

 

This and the Waggish article have given me far too much to chew on. Items in both seem to be stretches for the sake of making their theories work (and they admit as such at times) but there's quite a lot that seems plausible. Pretty incredible, really.

 

I've read myself in circles about the finale episodes since Sunday and am eager to do a full rewatch of the season, maybe timed so I can finish it right when The Final Dossier hits. Also, the Medium article's references to the Jack Parsons connections made me realize I need to dive deeper into The Secret History. For Frost to write two entire books that cap the start and finish of this season leads me to believe that they'll both be pivotal in understanding a lot of what we saw. Even though Dossier has been described as a simple look into the lives of TP residents during the last 25 years I'm figuring there will be some really important stuff tucked into there.

 

Assuming that post-Dossier we never get official TP material again, I can't even imagine how much the fanbase will dissect and build upon theories and ideas in the coming years. Gah, The Return was just incredible.