Fashion

[SuperBiasedMan]

Dude's absolutely do, because society in general judges everyone on fashion. But the option exists for white dudes to not care in a way it doesn't for other races and genders because white dudes are privileged with less judgement on average even though we still receive judgement.

 

I admit to being too cavalier about pressure on white dudes because I feel no pressure at all as a white dude personally. I'm detached from having much of a self image, also privileged to have an office full of accepting people and a girlfriend who may be disappointed with my lack of fashion but isn't actively pushing against it. But I feel like it's a big difference. I don't know personal circumstances for anyone obviously but I think you're focusing too personally Twig and not seeing the bigger picture that no matter how bad it may harm you it's on a whole nother level for others.

 

Because, to be honest, your response thus far has read as the equivalent of "sexism hurts men too". And the entire response to that is, "Yes, that's true. We can discuss that too but it doesn't invalidate the other ideas we're discussing here."

[Coods]

@Coods I agree! The elitism certainly exists (I would say this also parallels with the game industry...) and I'm sure plenty of people have the same insecurity about it. But that doesn't mean you should accept the elitist definition of fashion when there's a much broader and better way to define it. We should change fashion to be a better, more inclusive and positive idea.

 

I'm not even sure if I could fully denounce that definition though. If my mother wants to communicate love and loyalty by buying my family a bunch of brandname shoes when we go visit them in China, it seems like an ok idea. The way fashion scales with money and status is problematic in a lot of ways but also is deeply related to how fashion (in this sense, having the ability and luxury to decide) in general is a statement of privilege, which I think someone else might have mentioned.

[Twig]

I think you're focusing too personally Twig and not seeing the bigger picture that no matter how bad it may harm you it's on a whole nother level for others.

I appreciate that you think that, but since I've stated multiple times that it's worse for other groups, I can unequivocally state that you're wrong in thinking that.

 

And yes you are being dismissive about pressure on white dudes.

 

If a white dude walked into the office tomorrow wearing a do-rag, even if he grew up in an environment where people accepted that white people sometimes wear do-rags, he'd still be judged poorly, and, yes, that's an extension of racism (and probably classism) and the judgment there is mostly "why is he trying to act like he's not white (or act like he's 'poor')", rather than, "why is he wearing a do-rag". 

 

My point is not that "sexism [and racism] hurts everyone", although it's cool that you acknowledge that, but rather that it doesn't serve any fucking purpose whatsoever to mock a bunch of white dudes for dressing similarly. It's just mean. "haha he's so boring and maybe even sloppy with his jeans and a button-down shirt ha ha ha ha ha"

 

I'd actually argue that YOU'RE focusing too much on the personal aspect of things. I dress like I dress because society has dictated that this is the way I should dress. And there's no way I'm alone in this.

[Zeusthecat]

I get that read on it Zeus, and obviously there are some people who have literally no capacity to take part in choosing clothing in any way. But I was trying to make the Point that even if you shop at a second hand store you can take part if you want to, just by choosing clothes to match and fit and work together. That's what my girlfriend did when we had basically no money. Fashion isn't just a narrow band of expensive branded clothing where the level of fashion correlates to the pricetag. Again, even thinking about this is certainly an effort that maybe you're not in any position to be in, or maybe you literally have to just buy as cheaply as possible and don't have freedom of choice, but I think the possiblity exists on a broader range than you think.

 

I just have a hard time agreeing with the notion that fashion should be considered "important". Within certain groups or industries, yes it is important and it sucks that that's how it is. But I think we should be fighting against the notion that fashion is important, not embracing it. Whether you can't afford fashionable clothes or you belong to a religion that imposes crazy restrictions on what is appropriate to wear or you don't have a choice because you have to wear whatever your parents buy for you or you just don't care, you shouldn't have to worry about how other people are going to judge you based on your clothing choices. 

[Twig]

Whether you can't afford fashionable clothes or you belong to a religion that imposes crazy restrictions on what is appropriate to wear or you don't have a choice because you have to wear whatever your parents buy for you or you just don't care, you shouldn't have to worry about how other people are going to judge you based on your clothing choices. 

Basically all of this.

 

It's just counterproductive to mock people for the way they dress, just because they're able to get away with more. All it does is give the message that everyone should further restrict their fashion options so nobody gets mocked. I dunno, that seems pretty fucked up to me!

[osmosisch]

I feel like dressing well and fashion (as in the collective decision that certain styles of thing are 'in') are being confused/conflated a lot in this thread.

I think it behooves anyone to at least try to wear things that look good on them. The vagaries of fashion however leave me cold at best and actively irritate me at worst, especially when the stuff I like is 'out' and therefore really hard to find.

[clyde]

There's a lot I want to respond to in this thread, but responding to all of it is a bit overwhelming so I'll just touch some of the perspectives that have been displayed.

 

Fashion can be exciting. It's true that by law, we have to wear clothes and so we all participate to some degree. It's also true that financial status is going to create some limits on how much freedom an individual has. Body-type is also going to create limits. That's part of the excitement! Fashion isn't a blank canvas like painting or hobbyist computer-games, there are real world limitations and social contexts that create obstacles and substances that (what is in my opinion) the more impressive fashions take into consideration and work with. You might be poor and you might not have legs, the fashion that I personally like would be aware of those physical realities and use them to the wearer's advantage. There seems to be a lot of loss-aversion in this thread that speaks of fear of being judged by appearance. In any place or situation where someone can see you, you are going to be judged by how you appear. If someone hears you speak, you will be judged by how your voice sounds. If you want any amount of influence over how you are judged, I recommend being realistic about how people operate, realize your current limitations, and consider your personal strengths. You have to actually interact with folks in order to know who they are in any significant way. That opportunity is much more rare than seeing someone pass by at a conference. Fashion is often going to be one of the first things someone is judged upon, but not necessarly the last, nor the most significant metric.

Also, remember that homogeniety is a style, if you want to not stick out, then that is your choice (and "yes", it does have social and  political implications even if you don't want it to). 

 

I haven't read a lot about fashion, but I have some opinions. One of those opinions is that it is perfectly fine to have opinions about how people dress. It's fine to have an opinion about what people talk about and it's fine to have an opinion about how they go about gaining knowledge. Stating your opinion is a form of enforcement and I can easily understand how that could piss some people off, but in the case of an public presentation at the level of E3, I think it is perfectly fair-game for published fashion-criticism (especially because it has such an extreme, public/professional/media context). 

 

Here is a big part of my perspective on fashion: to simplify things for this moment, let's forget physical materials like available fabrics and money and body-type. I want to point out something more basically sociological. I see most fashion decisions in the terms of a balance between the assimilation of the perceived norm of the group with whom the individual identifies, and the opposition of the individual against that norm. One of the benefits of this form of fashion criticism is that it can get us further away from the concerns that we are judging the worth of a person based on what they are wearing. Instead, we can judge their proximity to the perceived norm. Let's do that:

Let's suppose you are at the Country Music Awards and you see this Guy. On a scale of 1-to-10,

-1 being sticking out like an obnoxious, narcissitic sore-thumb that doesn't seem aware or respectful of his surroundings in any way

-10 being complete assimilation into the crowd like  a worker in Metropolis or a shaven soldier in boot-camp, 

How would you rate this Guy?

 

[Twig]

Also listen I apologize for bein' all ridico-harsh and whatnots. Apparently, unbeknownst to even me prior to the topic coming up, this is something I get worked up about?!

 

I can't explain it. But anyway sorry.

[Twig]

Fashion can be exciting.

I don't find this exciting, even a little, although I do think that guy wears that outfit quite well.

[Zeusthecat]

I haven't read a lot about fashion, but I have some opinions. One of those opinions is that it is perfectly fine to have opinions about how people dress. It's fine to have an opinion about what people talk about and it's fine to have an opinion about how they go about gaining knowledge. Stating your opinion is a form of enforcement and I can easily understand how that could piss some people off, but in the case of an public presentation at the level of E3, I think it is perfectly fair-game for published fashion-criticism (especially because it has such an extreme, public/professional/media context).

 

I disagree with this part. While it might be fair game, I think those who choose to publish a piece criticizing someone's fashion choices in a public venue are assholes, especially when that public venue has absolutely nothing to do with the world of fashion/fashion criticism. Calling someone out publicly and making fun of them for not conforming to some societal norm is an asshole thing to do.

 

Otherwise you make some fair points.

[Reyturner]

Fashion can be exciting.

"Exciting" is an interesting choice of words. It implies a visceral reaction that I guess I just don't get. He looks great and clearly isn't built like a super model. A lot of care and attention was clearly spent too create that look. That's the sticking point for me. The cost, and I don't mean money. If I got that thrill that I can only assume you do I'd be more interested. But I don't.

Maybe if I was a foot shorter and could buy clothes in stores, especially thrift stores, I might be more into it. Unfortunately, all I can see is a huge pain in my ass.

[BusbyBerkeley]

Aw, I thought this would be a thread for fashion advice and shit, not a continuation of the discussion from the feminism thread. I need some new sporty/casual shoes, but I generally hate the look of sneakers.

[jennegatron]

Aw, I thought this would be a thread for fashion advice and shit, not a continuation of the discussion from the feminism thread. I need some new sporty/casual shoes, but I generally hate the look of sneakers.

 

Have you tried deck shoes? I think they're a great casual shoe on fellas. You have to be conscious what you pair them with though, as you (probably) want to avoid looking fratty

[Mangela Lansbury]

Aw, I thought this would be a thread for fashion advice and shit, not a continuation of the discussion from the feminism thread. I need some new sporty/casual shoes, but I generally hate the look of sneakers.

Have you considered cowboy boots?

But really, there's your Tom's type shoes, deck shoes (Sperry's have some good non-douchey options), Merrell, or low end dress shoe options. What kind of profile are you looking for?

[BusbyBerkeley]

Really, I just want a cheapish plain athletic sneaker. Something maybe I could run in? I like low profile shoes like vans and chucks just fine, but most running shoes I see are ugly as fuck. Might just bite the bullet and get designated "workout shoes" so I can play tennis and jog with the SO.

[Mangela Lansbury]

If you have a Nordstrom Rack near you, see if you can pick up some Onitsuka Tiger or something along those lines cheap. I picked a pair up for like $25 a few years ago, wear them a lot, and they're holding up great.

[Bjorn]

Fashion can be exciting.

 

Man, that looks gooood.  I wish I was more adventurous in the clothes I wear.  I always think about wearing something really bold, but inevitably just default to very simple colors and fabrics.

[Griddlelol]

I wrote a long reply then closed my browser. The gist was fuck people who make fun or judge others on what they wear. People who care about what others wear are lame. I have privilege in that I can wear what I want, but that should be extended to everyone, not taken away from everyone. That'd be a step backwards.

 

Also sweat pants are the best.

[Merus]

This thread is a trainwreck.

[clyde]

This thread is a trainwreck.

We just have some pain that we can work through together, over time.

What kind of profile are you looking for?

What is a "profile"? Is that just the shape of the shoe's siloutte?

[Griddlelol]

This thread is a trainwreck.

 

But a fashionable one.

[Merus]

We just have some pain that we can work through together, over time.

 

This thread reminds me of a mainstream news site comment thread talking about domestic violence. That's how bad this thread is. There are a couple of people who are trying, but the majority of the participants are completely ill-equipped to have this kind of conversation, have no interest in developing those skills, and are willing to say it loudly and with hostility to everyone else.

[dibs]

Well, i got complimented on my ghost busters t-shirt today. Woo.

[Badfinger]

Fashion can be exciting.

 

Love the pocket square, hate the boots, very indifferent on wearing a zip up sweater as the layer between the coat and the shirt, wish I could pull off some tweed-ass looking suit jackets. To answer your spoiler, Guy Fieri is a douche no matter what he wears, but his clothing choices accentuate it dramatically.

 

I know some people in the thread are really dismissive of "fashion" and would be perfectly happy in formless sacks for everyone, but it's worth repeating that aesthetics and physical appearance are important to human beings on an instinctive level. I am way not into haute couture, but clothing absolutely matters to people.

[Twig]

I know some people in the thread are really dismissive of "fashion" and would be perfectly happy in formless sacks for everyone, but it's worth repeating that aesthetics and physical appearance are important to human beings on an instinctive level. I am way not into haute couture, but clothing absolutely matters to people.

Yeah, and that's the problem.