Idle Thumbs 183: The Anonymouses

[CollegeBaby]

I don't think that's right. Before the mp3 came along there was a lot of advertising and marketing for high end stereo equipment. That market lost out and is now just a niche thing.

 

The issue though isn't whether the audio equipment industry got it right VS the Blu Ray industry. It's whether or not an improved format will create an interest from people in a particular song or movie or whatever where previously there was no interest? And I think regardless of the differences between the audio equipment industry and the Blu Ray industry, the answer to that is still no. It's not as if film restoration is a new thing. You sometimes see restored films appear in theater. There usually isn't a huge wave of interest in these things though. People appreciate better quality things, but it isn't what drives interest largely.

 

OK I see how I might have diverged from what was being talked about on the podcast. What I wanted to say though - without having explained effectively - is that I might agree that most people probably don't truly care about visual quality, I do believe that marketing has manipulated a lot of people to want to upgrade their televisions and media formats to get higher video quality, such that they will want to do so even if they can't actually tell a spot of difference.

 

As time goes on though there are always going to be more people interested in older films/television shows who have never been into them before just for the fact that more people are always being born, even if overall it becomes a more niche thing. Since we are spoiled when it comes to modern media these days I do think a lot of people my age (gen Y) look back with skepticism on older media because sometimes it doesn't hold up as well. It's not always a simple fix - Batman is still going to be cheap 60s camp that some will never like - but I think remasters are an effective way to firstly advertise the product again, and also to put something out on the market that better meets current expectations so people will pick it up for the first time.

[Problem Machine]

I think the topic of how worthwhile Rebirth is has been adequately tackled here, but I think it's a huge game. I've played 7 hours and I still encounter completely new enemy types and new kinds of rooms, plus making all of the items interact properly is huge.

 

Regarding the limitations of Flash, a big part of that is that they didn't just make it in Flash, but in Actionscript 2, the version of Flash's scripting language which was deprecated starting with Flash 10 in 2007. You can make a game run at any framerate you want and if you code it competently you shouldn't have any problem getting a stable 60 out of a game like Isaac, but being tied to an antiquated version of Flash made it impossible. It frustrates me a bit, as someone who's worked professionally as an Actionscript 3 programmer, to hear Flash as a platform get dumped on because of someone using a 5 year old version of it.

 

I'm going to have to strenuously disagree with everyone saying L4D2 has better gameplay than L4D. The new weapons are redundant, the ammo packs are pointless, the new scoring system is awful. The new SI are okay, but only the Charger is actually well-designed: All of the original SI were carefully developed to play uniquely (as Nick mentioned) and to fulfill several roles. Spitter feels very generic to play in comparison, and Jockey serves no role that the Smoker didn't already fill. And, regarding corner camping, the Spitter is useless for stopping that beyond forcing them to pick a spot with counters or railings to stand on: In reality, she acts as damage amplifier, while it's the job of the hunter and charger to break up the group. Even in L4D, corner camping could be risky against a decent team, since if one hunter pounce gets through the entire team will be stumbled.

 

I really loved L4D and put in like 2000 hours between the two games, but was extremely disappointed by the lackadaisical approach Valve took to L4D2, with sloppy animations and careless "wouldn't it be cool" additions. The tonal problems are just symptomatic of the greater flaws in their approach. Given the choice of the two, I'd play L4D every time. Unfortunately it's a fairly small player base nowadays.

[TurboPubx-16]

Are you serious when you say you have 2000 hours in L4D? Please take screen shot of your Steam .

[Problem Machine]

[elmuerte]

How?

[Problem Machine]

I played it a lot. Mostly vs. 2-4 hours a day adds up pretty fast. There's really no other game like it: A round can hinge on an instant of unspoken cooperation between you and your teammate.

I also got depressed and spent a bunch of time watching demos, but I don't think that's a significant contribution to the total.

[Badfinger]

I liked L4D2 a lot. Steam says I have 178 hours in it (it also says I have 35 hours in L4D which is woefully incorrect). I probably got fatigued from it faster than I did L4D just because I never really quit playing the original. That's my biggest criticism, honestly - not "oh $60 for a refresh the next year" but rather they kind of mush together for me rather than standing on their own. I think of them as essentially the same quality.

[Twig]

I loved L4D2 and would have played it as much if not more than L4D1 if my L4D group hadn't fatigued on it because they never quit and played it all the way up until L4D2 came out. (EDIT: Basically what Badfinger said.) I'd still go back and play either of them any time, though. Love those games. D:

[malkav11]

I'm going to have to strenuously disagree with everyone saying L4D2 has better gameplay than L4D. The new weapons are redundant, the ammo packs are pointless, the new scoring system is awful. The new SI are okay, but only the Charger is actually well-designed: All of the original SI were carefully developed to play uniquely (as Nick mentioned) and to fulfill several roles. Spitter feels very generic to play in comparison, and Jockey serves no role that the Smoker didn't already fill. And, regarding corner camping, the Spitter is useless for stopping that beyond forcing them to pick a spot with counters or railings to stand on: In reality, she acts as damage amplifier, while it's the job of the hunter and charger to break up the group. Even in L4D, corner camping could be risky against a decent team, since if one hunter pounce gets through the entire team will be stumbled.

 

I really loved L4D and put in like 2000 hours between the two games, but was extremely disappointed by the lackadaisical approach Valve took to L4D2, with sloppy animations and careless "wouldn't it be cool" additions. The tonal problems are just symptomatic of the greater flaws in their approach. Given the choice of the two, I'd play L4D every time. Unfortunately it's a fairly small player base nowadays.

 

It sounds to me like you're coming from the perspective of Versus play. Is that the case? I for one am only interested in cooperative multiplayer, so Versus wouldn't even enter into my analysis of which game played better.

[Problem Machine]

Absolutely, yeah. I barely ever touched campaign, and mostly found it kind of boring since you can get away with so much and only get to play the survivors which, IMO, are pretty milquetoast compared to the variety of SI.

[malkav11]

Absolutely, yeah. I barely ever touched campaign, and mostly found it kind of boring since you can get away with so much and only get to play the survivors which, IMO, are pretty milquetoast compared to the variety of SI.

 

And that's the thing. I could see Versus in L4D1 being better since it seems like a lot of people tend to prefer their competitive experiences to be as stripped down as possible to focus entirely on the core elements that make it work, and L4D2 is definitely more of everything. But it makes for a pretty dull solo or cooperative experience, in my opinion. 

[Twig]

As someone who played about half and half (around L4D2's launch) I'll just say that I looooooved the addition of the Jockey. It was my favorite thing to play as.

 

edition/addition/whatever fml

[sclpls]

Yeah the jockey is seriously the most fun special infected to play as.

 

Also, as if to prove my point about the worthlessness of music and how indifferent the public is to how they consume entertainment, the new Usher song is available in Honey Nut Cheerios boxes sold at Walmart.

 

http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-juice/6312254/new-usher-song-honey-nut-cheerios-walmart

[SecretAsianMan]

As someone who played about half and half (around L4D2's launch) I'll just say that I looooooved the edition of the Jockey. It was my favorite thing to play as.

 

 

Yeah the jockey is seriously the most fun special infected to play as.

 

You are both the thing that I hate .  While I think it was a smart addition, that doesn't prevent me from hating it.  I enjoy being the spitter, especially when you can get all four of the survivors at once.  It's even better if they're covered in boomer bile and can't see anything.

[Twig]

I also like the spitter but I prefer boomer for wreaking havoc. Plus boomer makes fun gross noises.

[Problem Machine]

Jockey is okay but pretty redundant with the smoker, which I actually think is more fun since you can be a little trickier, pulling down from ledges and across gaps. Spitter relies more on teammates than any other SI: Most of them can do SOMETHING by themselves, but even if you land a spit on all 4 it's completely worthless if your team isn't there to keep them from instantly running out of it. I find her pretty hit-and-miss, and feel like she could have been designed more elegantly to fill a more nuanced role, as with the boomer. Boomer you can also be a lot trickier with, spawning behind cars and vomiting over them, jumping off roofs and spawning in at the moment just before you'd become visible, etc.

[Twig]

Yeah you said that before... There is some overlap in their function, but they can result in very different things. The jockey is more versatile, but much easier to spot and stop. The smoker is less versatile, but can be much more sneaky. The jockey can take advantage of chaos to ruin one survivor's life. The smoker can cause chaos by taking advantage of one survivor's slight misstep.

 

I completely disagree that the joker is redundant.

 

As for spitter, well, I like that it relies on teamwork. I'd also say they all rely on teamwork. Any single SI going up against an experienced team isn't going to get shit done, except maybe a boomer falling from the sky or something, who even then is completely ineffective if other SI don't follow up. You NEED to work together. I'll concede that spitter is definitely more reliant on teamwork than the rest, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

[SecretAsianMan]

Looking at any of the SI alone is pointless because the game is designed around teamwork and every one of them requires it to do anything (except for possibly the tank but that's a special case).  The thing I like about the spitter is that it was designed to specifically counter a common tactic (ie getting into a corner and endlessly melee) but the real strength of the class is in area denial.  I like doing stuff like spitting on a downed survivor to prevent them from being picked up by their team or blocking off a narrow passage with acid and forcing them to wait it out or take a different route.  I like the subtle tactics whose effects are harder to see than a straight up attack.

[Twig]

I called the jockey the joker in my one-line summary. 

 

WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY TYPING ABILITIES TODAY!

 

Anyway I agree with SAM.

 

SAM we should play L4D/2 alongside Payday 2. )':

[SecretAsianMan]

I called the jockey the joker in my one-line summary. 

 

WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY TYPING ABILITIES TODAY!

 

Anyway I agree with SAM.

 

SAM we should play L4D/2 alongside Payday 2. )':

 

I agree with your agreement.  I also agree we should play.  Didn't L4D used to be a regular thing round here?

[Problem Machine]

I wanna get in for sure if there's gonna be l4d1/2 vs at any point. Just let me know a while ahead of time since I need to reinstall it (limited disk space )

And yeah, they're all reliant on teamwork, but spitter is completely useless without her team. Any pinner has the possibility of basically instantly killing a survivor anywhere there's a one-way drop, boomer can sacrifice to delay the team, but spitter can do nothing at all if she's the last one up. She doesn't actually do a very good job of solving the problem she was added to solve. I don't mean to get down on either of them too much, because I think in practice they both work okay, but they really feel half-baked compared to the nuanced and thought-out roles of the original three.

[sclpls]

You can think about the type of roles heroes play in a LoMa, and basically a lot of the same principles apply to the SI in L4D. So the spitter is more of a team fight character than a roaming support. I don't think that makes the role(s) less well thought out.

[SecretAsianMan]

And yeah, they're all reliant on teamwork, but spitter is completely useless without her team. Any pinner has the possibility of basically instantly killing a survivor anywhere there's a one-way drop, boomer can sacrifice to delay the team, but spitter can do nothing at all if she's the last one up. She doesn't actually do a very good job of solving the problem she was added to solve. I don't mean to get down on either of them too much, because I think in practice they both work okay, but they really feel half-baked compared to the nuanced and thought-out roles of the original three.

 

I disagree with that.  I already outlined two scenarios where the spitter is quite useful.  Yes, both of those are delaying tactics but so is the boomer.  And I feel like the pipe bombs act as a counter to the boomer.  Plus the spitter is the most capable of hit and run tactics since you never lose control of the character like the other classes (besides the boomer and the jockey to a degree).  Personally I find the charger to be the least nuanced.  Its like a combination of the hunter and smoker, a role I'm not entirely sure needed to be filled.  I do admit it's fun to charge a survivor off a high ledge but that's a fairly rare occurrence.

[Twig]

I like the charger as an initiator in that regard. You get all the focus on him, and since he's quite a bit beefier than the rest, he gives the other SI more time to jump in.

[SecretAsianMan]

I like the charger as an initiator in that regard. You get all the focus on him, and since he's quite a bit beefier than the rest, he gives the other SI more time to jump in.

 

The charger does make a good opener, I'll give you that.