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"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

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Horatio Magellan is his real name????

 

Oh wow I was not prepared for this.

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Sorry everyone interested in GG, ethics & journalism, this is now the Cap'n Crunch thread, where we exclusively talk about Horatio Magellan & his never ending quest to find a way to relax.

thank god

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Horatio Magellan is his real name????

 

Oh wow I was not prepared for this.

 

 

That was straight off the dome & I did not need to refer to the wiki page for that deep cut. I'm an asset to any pub trivia team for this reason. If you're ever in need of someone who can name all 7 dwarves from Snow White & tell you the capital of Somalia, I'm your gal. (This is applicable to anyone else in Davis or Sacramento. Pub trivia is my #1 jam.)

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The only Wiki edit I've ever made is to remove the word "feminist" from the description of the Femme Fatale/Strong Female Character anthology that GRRM came up with literally called Femme Fatale. I should have been a huge shitbutt and just put "citation needed." 

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Instead of focusing on the constant sexualisation of female characters in CDP's The Witcher 3, the discussion has veered into the direction of racism. Now, I don't really see a necessity for representation in fantasy settings if conflicts of race are already strongly mirrored in the presented fictional races (but, yeah, I could not be any whiter). However, when critics ask "...and why not?", gamergate supplies few answers – all very hollow.

 

http://www.polygon.com/2015/6/3/8719389/colorblind-on-witcher-3-rust-and-gamings-race-problem

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2015/06/04/witcher-3-and-diversity/

 

"Cyberpunk 2077" will probably offer a far better solution – as gamergate's counter arguments do not even apply. Still, I'd even prefer they didn't let you customize the main character and just went with someone of color (and preset personality).

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This is kind of chillingly accurate:

 

And then we see panic and anger when white gamers may be asked to play as people of color in Rust. The double standard is rarely addressed. Being white is apolitical, being a person of color, even simply by existing, is threatening to some players.

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Instead of focusing on the constant sexualisation of female characters in CDP's The Witcher 3, the discussion has veered into the direction of racism. Now, I don't really see a necessity for representation in fantasy settings if conflicts of race are already strongly mirrored in the presented fictional races (but, yeah, I could not be any whiter). However, when critics ask "...and why not?", gamergate supplies few answers – all very hollow.

 

Depressingly, all I see in gamers' disproportionately hostile reactions to the occasional presence of people of color in neo-medieval settings is the importance of those settings in unconscious fantasies of white supremacy. There's a genuine nostalgia for the supposed days when it was clear who the enemy was and that was because he (or she) wasn't white (even if, in reality, medieval people paid minimal attention to skin color and made no correlation between it and the signifiers of difference that were actually important to them, namely Latin/Frankish culture and Christian religion, until the discovery of the Americas complicated the traditional definition of "heathen"). If even one person of color exists in the otherwise whitewashed world of this game, without playing some kind of villain, it's useless as part of the cultural history arguing that the current system of bigotry and oppression has always existed and always will exist. The Witcher 3 is not to blame directly, but because it focuses on pseudo-Poland's relationship with the pseudo-Holy Roman Empire instead of with pseudo-Huns, pseudo-Mongols, or pseudo-Turks, it becomes another work that reinforces the "historical accuracy" of an all-white pre-modern Europe for assholes on the internet.

 

A charter that I was translating just two weeks ago was about Guglielmo il Moro, marquis of Parodi. It's a stunningly common nickname, especially in the eleventh-century Mediterranean. For centuries, scholars have argued that "dark" epithets were indications of "heathen" behavior, like excessive murdering and pillaging, but now that we're all not tight-necked British noblemen doing history from our solars, it's abundantly clear that they were often self-applied and almost certainly just referred to dark-skinned individuals, possibly from mothers of color whom history didn't note. Of course, the identity crisis from a dark-skinned lord ruling in northwest Italy is just too much for some...

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Now, I don't really see a necessity for representation in fantasy settings if conflicts of race are already strongly mirrored in the presented fictional races (but, yeah, I could not be any whiter).

It's actual dehumanization. The writers are literally saying "White people are people, but every other race is something else." That's a problem.

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Witcher 3 is so determinedly Polish, though. It's not full of a bunch of generic "white people", it's full of specifically Polish people (or at least that's how it seems to me). I mean, it's a Polish studio making games based on a Polish book series that is itself based on Polish mythology, for what was (at least at first) a primarily Polish audience. If it's OK to "write about what you know" surely it is also OK to make a game about what you know?

 

And it's not like Polish people have had such an easy and privileged time of it both in their home country and in the United States. Both the Nazis and the Soviets committed genocides against the Poles, and Polish people in the United States were also subject to serious racism. I feel like treating this game as "too many white people" is a gross oversimplification. It would be just as unfair to ask to be able to play a Polish person in Never Alone, a game based on Inuit mythology that features an Inuit protagonist. 

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There pretty much are only Polish people in Poland. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Poland

 

Likewise, I have played a fair number of Japanese games that feature only Japanese people and it's never struck me as something I should be concerned by. There pretty much are only Japanese people in Japan, so I don't really expect Japanese artists to represent people of other ethnicity in their games. 

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There pretty much are only Polish people in Poland. 

Who cares? This isn't Poland. This is a fantasy world with Scottish dwarves. There are pretty much no Scottish people in Poland.

 

Oh wait there aren't any dwarves in Poland either, because they don't exist in real life.

 

brb writing to gamergate central about the scottish sjw conspiracy

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Depressingly, all I see in gamers' disproportionately hostile reactions to the occasional presence of people of color in neo-medieval settings is the importance of those settings in unconscious fantasies of white supremacy. There's a genuine nostalgia for the supposed days when it was clear who the enemy was and that was because he (or she) wasn't white (even if, in reality, medieval people paid minimal attention to skin color and made no correlation between it and the signifiers of difference that were actually important to them, namely Latin/Frankish culture and Christian religion, until the discovery of the Americas complicated the traditional definition of "heathen"). If even one person of color exists in the otherwise whitewashed world of this game, without playing some kind of villain, it's useless as part of the cultural history arguing that the current system of bigotry and oppression has always existed and always will exist. The Witcher 3 is not to blame directly, but because it focuses on pseudo-Poland's relationship with the pseudo-Holy Roman Empire instead of with pseudo-Huns, pseudo-Mongols, or pseudo-Turks, it becomes another work that reinforces the "historical accuracy" of an all-white pre-modern Europe for assholes on the internet.

 

There could be racist agenda attached to it like you said, but I would like to offer a counterpoint from my view which is of Korean who immigrated to USA in early teen.

 

It is this medieval (pre age of sails?) setting.  When I think of european medieval (that's what most tolkien inspired fantasy settings are, I think?), I think of white people and expect white people.  This isn't because I'm thinking only white human beings existed in medieval good old days... it's because the setting is western medieval.  I would expect majority chinese cast for something based on medieval china, or korean cast for something korean, etc.  I see tolkien based fantasy setting as something inherently foreign, so I'm ok with it being foreign to me.  Granted I've shown my ultra high tolerence for status quo in this forum so maybe it is more along the line of that but maybe not perhaps?

 

Then there is what I Saw Dasein said about this game being product of Poland.  Let's just replace Poland with Korea.  There is Korean book based on Korean mythology, and Korean devs make a game based on that book with exclusively Korean cast... stuff like that is generated in korea quite frequently (and judging by how often Japan becomes center of the world in few japanese fictions I read, similar with china, USA, etc, I gather this is bit of a norm) so Witcher 3 just doesn't feel like the best example of this white washing problem (which I think is both real but kinda mis-evaluated at the same time) because of its very specific national/cultural identity.

 

 

Who cares? This isn't Poland. This is a fantasy world with Scottish dwarves. There are pretty much no Scottish people in Poland.

 

Oh wait there aren't any dwarves in Poland either, because they don't exist in real life.

 

You are absolutely right that there is no reason AGAINST inclusion of non-whites in Witcher 3.  But that's not necessarily same as necessity to include, which is what I think is lacking cause of its polish context. I see it more as missed opportunity with Witcher 3, not a wrongdoing.

 

So when people say "I wish there were non-whites in Witcher 3", think that's totally cool and fine etc.  But when they say Witcher 3 is racist eehh not so sure, maybe but I would need more convincing then the 2 articles linked.

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I Saw Dasein, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:39, said:

Likewise, I have played a fair number of Japanese games that feature only Japanese people and it's never struck me as something I should be concerned by. There pretty much are only Japanese people in Japan, so I don't really expect Japanese artists to represent people of other ethnicity in their games.

You mean the Japanese games that generally feature a lot of people with generically white characteristics?

Uh-huh.

EDIT: Also, the Polish word for black people (that's kind of taken on a racist turn in recent times!) has the same root as the English word moor and dates back to... the 1300s? Which means it was in common use before that. Soooooooooooooo

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Who cares? This isn't Poland. This is a fantasy world with Scottish dwarves. There are pretty much no Scottish people in Poland.

 

Oh wait there aren't any dwarves in Poland either, because they don't exist in real life.

 

brb writing to gamergate central about the scottish sjw conspiracy

 

I am basically pretty comfortable with people in other countries making art that is reflective of that country, but not reflective of the United States. I don't feel entitled to tell artists living in another society that their art should conform to my day-to-day experience. Accordingly, I am fine with Japanese people making art that is reflective of Japanese society, Inuit people making art that is reflective of Inuit society, and Polish people making art that is reflective of Polish society. 

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Witcher 3 is so determinedly Polish, though. It's not full of a bunch of generic "white people", it's full of specifically Polish people (or at least that's how it seems to me). I mean, it's a Polish studio making games based on a Polish book series that is itself based on Polish mythology, for what was (at least at first) a primarily Polish audience. If it's OK to "write about what you know" surely it is also OK to make a game about what you know?

 

And seeing as how the game was so dedicated to it's Polish origins, that's why the game is full of untranslated Polish language, right?

 

Or, just maybe, the developers made concessions to bring their game to a wider audience.  Concessions which could have easily included adding some diversity in there, because in a story that involves magic and dragons, anyone who's pointing to people of color and saying "That doesn't belong here!" is a fucking loon.

 

EDIT: This was a little too harsh and pointed.  My apologies.  That said, while I could have made my point in a much less antagonistic way, my point remains.  I would replace this instead of leaving this sorry note, but I do have to leave for a while. 

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You mean the Japanese games that generally feature a lot of people with generically white characteristics?

 

Well, let me give you an example. There are no black people (to my recollection) in the movie Princess Monoke, a film feature a lot of magic and fantasy creatures and so on. To my knowledge, that movie has never been criticized for its lack of diversity. So what is the difference between that and the Witcher 3?

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And seeing as how the game was so dedicated to it's Polish origins, that's why the game is full of untranslated Polish language, right?

 

Or, just maybe, the developers made concessions to bring their game to a wider audience.  Concessions which could have easily included adding some diversity in there, because in a story that involves magic and dragons, anyone who's pointing to people of color and saying "That doesn't belong here!" is a fucking loon.

 

Hey now, let's dial it back a bit.  I don't think neither me or I Saw Dasein is arguing that absence of non-white is a commendable choice made by CD Projekt Red... just that it is excusable.  At least that's the vibe I'm getting from reading his/her post.  I'm not getting "That doesn't belong here!" message at all.

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Or, just maybe, the developers made concessions to bring their game to a wider audience.  Concessions which could have easily included adding some diversity in there, because in a story that involves magic and dragons, anyone who's pointing to people of color and saying "That doesn't belong here!" is a fucking loon.

I definitely agree that there could have easily been a more diverse cast of character, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't have included people of other racial background. I just find it very peculiar that this game in particular is being so criticized for it, when this game is a rare example of a really successful game from a historically marginalized culture and country.

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Well, let me give you an example. There are no black people (to my recollection) in the movie Princess Monoke, a film feature a lot of magic and fantasy creatures and so on. To my knowledge, that movie has never been criticized for its lack of diversity. So what is the difference between that and the Witcher 3?

 

For the last couple hundred years, the Japanese haven't really practiced cultural imperialism. They had a brief foray into imperialism (as a political motive, since they still have an emperor) in the 40s, but it was quashed.

 

Also, Princess Mononoke was generally respectful of the Ainu, a marginalized racial group in Japan.

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For the last couple hundred years, the Japanese haven't really practiced cultural imperialism. They had a brief foray into imperialism (as a political motive, since they still have an emperor) in the 40s, but it was quashed.

 

Also, Princess Mononoke was generally respectful of the Ainu, a marginalized racial group in Japan.

 

Well, to my knowledge Poland hasn't practiced imperialism, cultural or otherwise, at any time in the recent past either. To the contrary, Poland has repeatedly been the victim of imperialism.

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