Dragon's Crown: Gaze past the giant witch tits

[Sno]

Just out of curiousity, how much of the game did you play? I'm normally fine with reviewers not playing an entire game, but Nier is a special case for me where the game gets so much better when you get into New Game Plus, particularly in how much more you learn about Kaine.

 

...I have kind of a soft spot for Nier and still feel that it was done a tremendous disservice when that Joystiq reviewer called it terrible due to his failure to understand the game.

I don't think i've ever felt as conflicted about a game as i was with Nier. There's a lot of really tremendous stuff about that game, things both innovative and daring. I'm definitely on the side of the argument that says it's well worth playing. (Twice, in fact, so you can see the things that change in NG+.)

Still, a lot of it also just doesn't work at all. For me, it was mostly mechanical, just the way it handles its overworld and its towns and quests, it feels like it's all just there out of obligation for being an RPG. (On the other hand, I think the combat and odd bullet hell-inspired bosses are actually both pretty fantastic, and i nearly lost it when i saw one of the dungeons shift to a true isometric perspective.)

One of my favorite Video game soundtracks too.

Apparently some of the Cavia guys are reuniting to make Drakengard 3.

 

As for Dragon's Crown, i don't know. Exaggerated and gross, maybe, but it does not seem to me like the kind of crass, pandering sexism that is prevalent in many other japanese games. I think the outcry around it has had a pretty juvenile and embarrassing tone.

[Tanukitsune]

I don't think i've ever felt as conflicted about a game as i was with Nier. There's a lot of really tremendous stuff about that game, things both innovative and daring. I'm definitely on the side of the argument that says it's well worth playing. (Twice, in fact, so you can see the things that change in NG+.)

Still, a lot of it also just doesn't work at all. For me, it was mostly mechanical, just the way it handles its overworld and its towns and quests, it feels like it's all just there out of obligation for being an RPG. (On the other hand, I think the combat and odd bullet hell-inspired bosses are actually both pretty fantastic, and i nearly lost it when i saw one of the dungeons shift to a true isometric perspective.)

One of my favorite Video game soundtracks too.

Apparently some of the Cavia guys are reuniting to make Drakengard 3.

 

As for Dragon's Crown, i don't know. Exaggerated and gross, maybe, but it does not seem to me like the kind of crass, pandering sexism that is prevalent in many other japanese games. I think the outcry around it has had a pretty juvenile and embarrassing tone.

 

Exactly, people are acting like this is one of "those" games that has a collector's edition with a special "pillow case", this isn't Ikki Tousen or Seran Kagura, guys. :|

[youmeyou]

Man, I can't believe this is turning around into people being offended that I'm offended by a plainly eroticised and objectified playable character. Should she end up serving as biting satire to play against my cynical assumptions, that would be super. But I'm not seeing that yet and until that happens, I don't consider this to be an unfounded stance to take.

[Sno]

I don't like this immediate assumption that since i'm taking up an opposing position, that i'm ridiculing you specifically.

I was speaking generally, but i was talking mostly about the Kotaku pieces that were trying to drum up controversy around this, they were juvenile and stupid and devolved into insults being traded back and forth.

I do not think the things that this game is doing are worth being offended by.

[Zeusthecat]

Man, I can't believe this is turning around into people being offended that I'm offended by a plainly eroticised and objectified playable character. Should she end up serving as biting satire to play against my cynical assumptions, that would be super. But I'm not seeing that yet and until that happens, I don't consider this to be an unfounded stance to take.

 

Hey, I'm right there with you. Too often in games this style is used for obvious reasons and it is generally demeaning to women imo. Borderlands 2 was the first time in recent memory that I remember seeing an overweight woman in a game (and she was fucking hilarious). If it wasn't the prevalent mindset in games to have women with impossible proportions I think this style might be clever in some way but it's not exactly in a vacuum.

[Zeusthecat]

I do not think the things that this game is doing are worth being offended by.

 

Maybe true, but I think it is reasonable to be turned off by it.

[Twig]

I just... I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again.

 

It's so incredibly cartoonish. Not in the typical anime-ish way, where everything is still basically human-shaped except fro the giant eyeballs, but just everything is so exaggerated. How the fuck is anyone turned on by it? Or turned off because they're turned on by it (because how the fuck is anyone turned on by it?)? LOOK at it. Yeesh.

[youmeyou]

I don't like this immediate assumption that since i'm taking up an opposing position, that i'm ridiculing you specifically.

I was speaking generally, but i was talking mostly about the Kotaku pieces that were trying to drum up controversy around this, they were juvenile and stupid and devolved into insults being traded back and forth.

I do not think the things that this game is doing are worth being offended by.

 

While that's a totally fair opinion to have, you basically grouped everyone who doesn't like the character design along with the one immature Kotaku response. So that's why it seemed like a weird statement to make. I think specificity is required here.

 

Twig, exaggerated physical features are a staple of cartoon pornography (in both Japan and elsewhere). That you don't find it attractive does not mean that was not the intent.

[Twig]

a) That's not what I said and "Not in the typical anime-ish way" mmm and c) How can you not just look at it and laugh at how absurd it is

 

jesus

[Zeusthecat]

I just... I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again.

 

It's so incredibly cartoonish. Not in the typical anime-ish way, where everything is still basically human-shaped except fro the giant eyeballs, but just everything is so exaggerated. How the fuck is anyone turned on by it? Or turned off because they're turned on by it (because how the fuck is anyone turned on by it?)? LOOK at it. Yeesh.

 

That's cool, I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong way to feel about it. I just personally see this style and shake my head because its been done over and over. Yeah, its over the top and ridiculous and possibly innocent at first but I've "been there, seen that" enough already.

[Sno]

While that's a totally fair opinion to have, you basically grouped everyone who doesn't like the character design along with the one immature Kotaku response. So that's why it seemed like a weird statement to make. I think specificity is required here.

Fair enough, i should have specified.

In general though, my feeling is that these character designs are probably going to end up being a very small part of a very big game, if you look at Vanillaware's history. Whether you're offended by it or not, or even into it, it's probably not worth being riled up about.

[Twig]

That's cool, I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong way to feel about it. I just personally see this style and shake my head because its been done over and over. Yeah, its over the top and ridiculous and possibly innocent at first but I've "been there, seen that" enough already.

That's fair. Disliking the style for the style is a completely valid complaint. And, so is disliking it for "promoting sexism" or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I understand that. I just can't even begin to see how that conclusion can be reached, given the package as a whole. Sure, look at mage lady in a vacuum and it's tits all day err day, but she's not in a vacuum!

 

So, I have a question for everyone who's bothered by this!

 

The goal was pretty obviously (to me, anyway) to exaggerate into cartoon-levels of absurdity. If you were to design characters with that goal in mind, how would you design some female lady girls? I'm curious! This is a sincere question!

 

I also like how the mage dude is very clearly packing some sick abs 'neath those robes, despite being a wizard man. It's a more subtle exaggeration than HUGE TITS, for sure, and maybe that's t he problem? Either way... Damn. Take it off, bro.

 

The only character I find boring is the knight dude, although his slow-but-deliberate pace helps a bit. Actually, petite elf girl is kinda boring, too.

 

The two barbarians are far and away my favorites.

[I Saw Dasein]

I don't understand your question. Are you asking whether it's possible to draw an exaggerated cartoon character without huge exposed cans? 

 

I don't really have an opinion about this game, but it seems like it would not be difficult to make hilarious cartoon characters without giant boobs. 

[Zeusthecat]

How would I exaggerate it? Tiny a-cup boobs, a gigantic dimply ass that is highly rendered to show the cellulite, a hunchback, and everyone would have Helen Hunt's face. Now THAT is a game I would play. Point being that it would also be funny and absurd but also not totally cliche.

[Argobot]

So, I have a question for everyone who's bothered by this!

 

The goal was pretty obviously (to me, anyway) to exaggerate into cartoon-levels of absurdity. If you were to design characters with that goal in mind, how would you design some female lady girls? I'm curious! This is a sincere question!

 

That right there is why I'm bothered by this design. The fact that someone thought "how do I a draw a cartoonish woman? BOOBS." It's reductive and objectifying and gross. And the fact that this stuff is every where does not mean that we should just roll our eyes at how dumb it is and move on. 

[Twig]

SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD THAT WAS THE QUESTION ARGOBOT

 

I mean how do you exaggerate a body without exaggerating the body?

 

Super fat?

 

Super tall and lanky? (Like Waluigi! That'd be awesome!)

 

Super short and squat? (Like an Oompa Loompa!)

 

These are all valid options, for sure. They're not really female-specific options, though. Maybe that's the problem, but that's what they did. I feel like they exaggerated pretty gender-specifically (muscles/lack-of-muscles in all the right/wrong places) for all six characters. Well, except for the lack of a small dude. Small dudes exist, and they don't have one here.

 

 

How would I exaggerate it? Tiny a-cup boobs, a gigantic dimply ass that is highly rendered to show the cellulite, a hunchback, and everyone would have Helen Hunt's face. Now THAT is a game I would play. Point being that it would also be funny and absurd but also not totally cliche.

Yesssss. That's what I'm talkin' about!

[osmosisch]

The exaggerated parts of the women are the sexual characteristics, so people complaining about creepy sexism is hardly unwarranted.

 

I just... I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again.

 

It's so incredibly cartoonish. Not in the typical anime-ish way, where everything is still basically human-shaped except fro the giant eyeballs, but just everything is so exaggerated. How the fuck is anyone turned on by it? Or turned off because they're turned on by it (because how the fuck is anyone turned on by it?)? LOOK at it. Yeesh.

[feelthedarkness]

It might be the most absurd version, but it's the most absurd version of the most typical alienating thing.

 

is giant sexy tits n ass even outlandish anymore? it's the default setting. 

[Twig]

On one out of six characters is that actually true.

 

It doesn't apply to the barbarian lady. I mean c'mon, for real here, c'mon.

[Argobot]

SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD THAT WAS THE QUESTION ARGOBOT

 

I mean how do you exaggerate a body without exaggerating the body?

 

Super fat?

 

Super tall and lanky? (Like Waluigi! That'd be awesome!)

 

Super short and squat? (Like an Oompa Loompa!)

 

These are all valid options, for sure. They're not really female-specific options, though. Maybe that's the problem, but that's what they did. I feel like they exaggerated pretty gender-specifically (muscles/lack-of-muscles in all the right/wrong places) for all six characters. Well, except for the lack of a small dude. Small dudes exist, and they don't have one here.

 

I think all the suggestions you came up with are pretty good alternatives, if they whole point of the design is exaggeration of the human body. But, the idea that gender-specific characteristics for men is muscles and for women it's breasts is kind of the whole reason I'm bothered by this design.

 

(Not trying to say that designing a character with big breasts automatically makes you wrong or a sexist. I just really feel uncomfortable with this specific design in this specific instance.)

[Twig]

Mhm, mhm, for sure, I understand!

 

If I'm honest, I'm disappointed that barbarian lady isn't more obviously muscular, but you can still tell she is. Also, at the very least, she is not, by any definition from popular culture, "sexy", which undoubtedly contributes to why she's tied for my favorite. (She'd probably be in first place if hammer dude's beard/mane didn't exist.)

[Zeusthecat]

I think a super clever thing would also be to make all of the women very manly and overly muscular with six packs and everything and make all of the guys have 2 inch waists and f-cup breasts and weigh 45 pounds.

[osmosisch]

On one out of six characters is that actually true.

 

It doesn't apply to the barbarian lady. I mean c'mon, for real here, c'mon.

Are you for real? Those T&A seem normal to you?

[tegan]

If I'm honest, I'm disappointed that barbarian lady isn't more obviously muscular, but you can still tell she is. Also, at the very least, she is not, by any definition from popular culture, "sexy", which undoubtedly contributes to why she's tied for my favorite. (She'd probably be in first place if hammer dude's beard/mane didn't exist.)

Well, except for the lack of a small dude. Small dudes exist, and they don't have one here.

 

I don't really feel ready to form a definite opinion on the matter yet, but I feel it's worth noting that Muramasa had Raijin and her romantic partner Fujin.

 

[Twig]

Oh man that's fantastic. I've always meant to play Muramasa, but never got around to it.

 

Are you for real? Those T&A seem normal to you?

I'm fairly certain I didn't say that.