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If you're honest about wanting to understand the issue, then you should try and just listen and not come up with excuses for why something doesn't count or how this one example invalidates the entire argument.

Ignoring any of the analysis, comments, or opinions that Sarkeesian expressed in the video, I hope we all at least agree with her statement that there are clearly a lot of female characters written as damsels and that it is part of a larger problem of how women are represented in media.

Yes. EOT for me.

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What in the actual fuck? That seems completely insane to me; I've never been told not to get raped, literally or metaphorically.

 

The message isn't literally "don't get raped", it's "don't put yourself in a position where you might get raped". I'm sure you've seen that message many times ("safety in numbers", etc. etc.). If you think that people were only telling you, a woman, to do that to prevent yourself from being robbed, I'm afraid I think you missed the subtext. Men are actually more likely to get robbed/beaten than women -- but we don't get that message drilled into us.

 

So why is the message, "women -- stay safe!", instead of "men -- don't rape!". At worst, both messages should be put out there -- but they're not.

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I can't speak for Jake here or anyone else, just myself, but the reason I find this thread so incredibly frustrating and therefore kind of terrible is the fact that virtually no one has denied that female representation in games is a problem--I think we all agree on that--but a lot of people seem to have a hard time accepting the objective facts in this video (leaving off the 'regressive crap' comment, I think the video factually demonstrates that there are a lot of women who are written as damsels in video games) for kind of nitpick-y reasons like 'well x character in y game wasn't a damsel this one time, etc...' If you're honest about wanting to understand the issue, then you should try and just listen and not come up with excuses for why something doesn't count or how this one example invalidates the entire argument.

 

Ignoring any of the analysis, comments, or opinions that Sarkeesian expressed in the video, I hope we all at least agree with her statement that there are clearly a lot of female characters written as damsels and that it is part of a larger problem of how women are represented in media.

 

I certainly agree with that, and I think the video did a fine job of conclusively illustrating that point.

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It's amazing how much people basically "learn how to have sex" from porn at this point. By which I mean, learn what you're "supposed to do," not how it works medically or practically. I wonder what the percentage of kids who saw porn online before they had their first sex ed class is at this point? The number has to be high, and it's weird. There are many distressing reddit threads with examples too small and dumb to be made up for karma. We live in a messed up time. The end.

 

I've been saying for about 10 years now that there should be porn FOR teenagers. I.e. Normal, every day, healthy porn -- showing sex as it's enjoyed by most people, most of the time, especially those new to it -- and not "I'm going slap you in the face, and call you a whore while shoving my dick up your ass" porn.

 

Instead of trying to hide porn from them, we should have porn made especially for them: Want to watch porn? Here, you're allowed to watch THIS.

 

I think Europe does a much better job at dealing with these sorts of things that we (the UK) and the US do -- Their teen magazines have full page photos of naked readers (in their teens) talking about their bodies in frank and honest terms. That seems a lot healthier to me than being ashamed of it -- but the whole explosion of the internet has only complicated things.

 

I can only hope that teens today just see crazy porn on the net, and don't let it affect them. Unfortunately a friend of mine told me how he stumbled across his older brother's porn collection -- really messed up porn collection -- (this was pre-internet) and how he felt it had messed him up as an adult. *sigh*

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So why is the message, "women -- stay safe!", instead of "men -- don't rape!". At worst, both messages should be put out there -- but they're not.

I don't really see how it's different than "people -- stay safe" in general. It's not bad advice to avoid shitty situations, whether we're talking about rape or muggings or whatever. I have warned people and been warned by people to avoid certain areas of this or that city, and I'm not sure why that's bad.

 

I also don't feel like there's a lack of education in regards to telling people to Be Good, even in entertainment. When has a rapist ever been portrayed as a good guy? When has rape ever been portrayed as something that didn't completely devastate the victim? I mean, I'm sure it's happened, but it can't be that common, as I've never seen it - or at least, don't remember seeing it. Sure, no one has ever explicitly told me, "Don't rape!", but I would never even dream of doing it. I guess my parents raised me as a human being, and that's why? I don't know.

 

On the other side of the coin, I have seen people change after being informed of their assholery (myself included), so there's that. But I feel like those people are inherently "good" (MYSELF INCLUDED!!!), and would never murder or rape or whatever, anyway. Telling a shitty human being to stop being shitty... has that ever really worked? Not sayin' it's not worth trying, but well.

 

Don't hate me.

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It's amazing how much people basically "learn how to have sex" from porn at this point. By which I mean, learn what you're "supposed to do," not how it works medically or practically. I wonder what the percentage of kids who saw porn online before they had their first sex ed class is at this point? The number has to be high, and it's weird. There are many distressing reddit threads with examples too small and dumb to be made up for karma. We live in a messed up time. The end.

 

With that in mind though, I think it would be a cop out to claim that in the future birth rates will be declining as men believe they are meant to ejaculate on their partners face at the end of sex.

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Meta-awareness of something being sexist, doesn't somehow make it not sexist. You can try to excuse Double Dragon Neon for reusing that intro by saying that they know it's stupid, but that doesn't make it OK; in fact, I think it actually makes it worse, since they knew that the intro is stupid and sexist, but they still used it anyway.

 

Maybe this kind of 'wink, wink we know sexism is bad, we're just using it ironically/humorlessly' attitude wouldn't be so problematic, if unironic sexism wasn't still a very real issue. But since it is, this retro, jokey sexism comes off as exceedingly tone-deaf and juvenile. 

 

I was thinking about what you said, but then I see you already sort of answered it in the same message and I had forgotten the second paragraph. It doesn't sound like you are saying this automatically means the creators or anyone who laughs at the "ironic sexist" humor as inherently sexist, but if they are not, they are enacting poor judgement, right?

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I guess? My problem with this kind of meta-sexism, or whatever you want to call, is that it's a very terrible 'have their cake and eat it too' situation, where creators are still able to use regressive, worn out gender ideas, while having a built in buffer against criticism. Anyone who criticizes it 'just doesn't get the joke,' and then stupid stuff like the DDN intro is allowed to continue.

 

I mean, isn't it a little weird that we live in a society where seeing a woman get punched in the stomach and then carted away with her panties showing can be seen as an ironic joke? Does that automatically make anyone who laughs at that joke sexist? Maybe not, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that DDN and other examples like it are so common and unquestioned in society.

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Yeah, I admit I really don't understand the culture of enjoying bad, cheap, or dumb things ironically, but it definitely exists and has influence.

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I guess? My problem with this kind of meta-sexism, or whatever you want to call, is that it's a very terrible 'have their cake and eat it too' situation, where creators are still able to use regressive, worn out gender ideas, while having a built in buffer against criticism. Anyone who criticizes it 'just doesn't get the joke,' and then stupid stuff like the DDN intro is allowed to continue.

 

So do we get rid of all this kind of "meta-humor"? People like Barry Humphries have made an entire career out of it and it's really a bit of a disservice to say that it shouldn't be acceptable because some people won't get the joke.

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This is the best, most nuanced discussion of these issues I've seen on the internet. You folks should be proud of yourselves. And I'm proud to be an Idle Thumber, even more, now!

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Humor is a really hard topic to discuss because it's obviously subjective and difficult to argue. Plus, not all sexist jokes are created equal (for instance, I generally enjoy Louis CK's stuff and never really have a problem when he uses gender to make a joke, but kind of an unfair comparison because CK is leagues beyond anything DDN could come up with, so anyway).

 

So no, I'm not calling for a ban on all Duke Nukem games or anyone who dares to use gender as a punchline, that would be dumb. I'm just asking that people pay more attention to what the intent of jokes like that are (is the comedian/creator trying to make an actual point, or are they just using the joke as a cover for something stupid), and not get immediately defensive when someone else says they find the joke problematic or offensive.

 

(But in this very specific case of DDN punching a woman in the stomach and then carting her off lack a sack of potatoes, I'm having a really hard problem seeing what the joke is and why anyone would really want to defend it.)

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Yeah, I've been pretty pleased with how it's played out. The last half-dozen pages have so very little ad hominem or outright silencing, which feels like a dream, to be honest. Although...

 

Reading your posts is like someone shitting in my ears. Good news is, I won't be anymore! (I can also miss out on your trollbait title targeted at me as well, classy!)

 

Blocking me because a post I apologized for right after is unpleasant to read and because you think my title is directed at anyone but me? I'm sorry to hear that. It wasn't my intention.

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Humour is weird. I personally have no problem with gender being a part of a joke, but start to take offence when the gender is the butt of the joke. For example, the scene at the beginning of Machete where the woman pulls a cell phone out of her vagina to contact the crime lord was very funny to me. In retrospect, if you were a naked woman trying to hide a phone, where else would you keep it? The shock of it caught me off guard though, and I thought it was really funny as a result. It was something that required the character doing it to be female, but it wasn't really saying anything negative about women either. It was a trashy, sexualized joke, but it wasn't mean spirited or negative about women in general. Just silly and shocking. Some people would probably be tempted to call that a sexist thing though. Conversely, pretty much anything Family Guy has ever had to say about women skeeves me the hell out. Like Argobot said earlier, Louis C.K. is another great example of this. He manages to find a way to say the most horrible things in a weirdly progressive way, and I really respect that.

 

Also, relating to an earlier thing, I was one of those kids who learned about sex from internet porn when I was around 12. I'm now 25 and well-adjusted (I think, anyway), but that adjustment took some work. It took a lot to overcome what I'd accidentally taught myself about the way two human bodies are supposed to interact, and I still find myself from time to time catching my brain thinking something about sex that makes me feel like a gross dude. I really like the idea floated earlier of a subgenre that actually gives those who are looking at it underage ('cause there's no way that's ever going to stop, and curiosity is normal anyway) about how things actually work. It would have helped a lot, as what started as legitimate curiosity for me at 12 had turned into something that I am now pretty ashamed of by the time I was 15.

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Wow, this thread is insane. Up to page 12 or so, I was thinking, "Am I still on the Idle Thumbs forums?" and then it turned into a normal/interesting discussion.

 

For what it's worth, I think the video probably did its job, though I know almost nothing about the kickstarter. At least I hadn't actually considered how many of the most popular game series have the damsel in distress motif -- but then I have played almost no Mario games and only a two Zeldas, one of which didn't have any Zelda in it as far as I remember.

 

Also the "regressive crap" comment seemed to be about resurrecting the sexism in that game over and over, not that the whole game is regressive crap, so I didn't mind it.

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I would like to see heroins explored in future videos. Specifically the sort of female characters commonly permitted to express agency in games. Zelda's empowered alter egos are tentatively presented as positive alternatives to the damsel archetype. These Zelda characters are deliberately androgynous, even masculine. Empowerment via the minimisation of femininity or the reappropriation of typically male characteristics is an interesting area of discussion.

I personally find this difficult to resolve as I'm caught between my belief that there are no fundamental differences between men and women and my recognition that adopting typically male characteristics serves a utilitarian function within the context of a sexist society.

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Humour is weird. I personally have no problem with gender being a part of a joke, but start to take offence when the gender is the butt of the joke. For example, the scene at the beginning of Machete where the woman pulls a cell phone out of her vagina to contact the crime lord was very funny to me. In retrospect, if you were a naked woman trying to hide a phone, where else would you keep it? The shock of it caught me off guard though, and I thought it was really funny as a result. It was something that required the character doing it to be female, but it wasn't really saying anything negative about women either. It was a trashy, sexualized joke, but it wasn't mean spirited or negative about women in general. Just silly and shocking. Some people would probably be tempted to call that a sexist thing though. Conversely, pretty much anything Family Guy has ever had to say about women skeeves me the hell out. Like Argobot said earlier, Louis C.K. is another great example of this. He manages to find a way to say the most horrible things in a weirdly progressive way, and I really respect that.

It comes down to the power / privilege relationship. The underdog or the peer can say anything, where as the one on top comes off a bully.

I think that's why a lot of brodudes hate being opinionated in a way that is different from me; they are never the underdog. They treat the people lower down on the privilege ladder like they treat their peers but they don't consider the power relationship. It's also why they fall back on "get a sense of humor".

Louis CK is one of the most talented and hard working comedians working today, but he presents himself as a lucky shlub. When he tells people the secret of success is to work hard and to not be an asshole it comes off a lot less gross than if Donald Trump says the exact same thing.

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I personally find this difficult to resolve as I'm caught between my belief that there are no fundamental differences between men and women and my recognition that adopting typically male characteristics serves a utilitarian function within the context of a sexist society.

 

In what context? There are huge fundamental differences between men and women, especially in terms of physical power. This isn't cultural, it's evolutionary. 

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Oh god this thread is big!

 

I watched this video a couple days ago. If she wanted to just describe what some classic woman tropes are, then OK, ya done that... wasn't very thought-provoking or insightful though, it's kind of just like reading a wikipedia page out loud.

I mean none of it was anything to do with Video games really, except for some examples, but you could make the same video about books or movies without changing much. MAYBE that's just cos it's episode 1, but she didn't mention much about game design for the next two episodes.

 

If you would've talked about beating characters up and dying a hundred times, and more of the things the game's demanding of you as a player, then made that about gender roles: maybe that'd be more interesting.

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Fuck me I am the worst. There was a post here a second ago and I accidentally hit "delete" instead of "quote" on my phone, and without any confirmation, the mobile site just wiped the post from the face of the earth. I'm really sorry about that. Fuck all things. I meant to reply instead. Worst.

The post was:

One thing that really bothers me about the video is the claim that the "trope" is so problematic for female representation because not only does it take away power from female characters, but also empowers male characters. The segment goes on to show female characters imprisoned and male characters finding their way out based on their skill and wit, Metal Gear Solid is used as an example. Snake finds himself in a cell twice in MGS, in one instance he gets out of the cell with Otacons assistance, in the other he is released from the cell by Meryl, who has escaped from the cell beside him without anybody's assistance. 

 

Her representation of this "issue" is just an outright lie, and this is supposedly one of the most damaging features of the "trope" for the way it empowers the male lead.

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One thing that really bothers me about the video is the claim that the "trope" is so problematic for female representation because not only does it take away power from female characters, but also empowers male characters. The segment goes on to show female characters imprisoned and male characters finding their way out based on their skill and wit, Metal Gear Solid is used as an example. Snake finds himself in a cell twice in MGS, in one instance he gets out of the cell with Otacons assistance, in the other he is released from the cell by Meryl, who has escaped from the cell beside him without anybody's assistance. 

 

Her representation of this "issue" is just an outright lie, and this is supposedly one of the most damaging features of the "trope" for the way it empowers the male lead.

I'm not sure it's an "outright lie" for a single one of her examples to involve less than complete self-sufficiency on the part of the dude. Surely you don't want to bring up the Meryl thing as an example of a portrayal of a strong female character who comes to Snake's aid - that entire scene is about how much more amazing Solid Snake is than Meryl, to the point where he doesn't give a shit that she's pointing a gun straight at him because he knows that she's too much of a sissy to shoot him. And surely you don't want to claim that there's no difference between games where women are prizes taken away to prisons where they do nothing except await the heroic arrival of the male protagonist and games where the male protagonist gets locked up and immediately starts trying to figure out how to solve the situation because even in prison he is large and in charge.

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