Minecraft

[ThunderPeel2001]

I have zero sympathy for notch. The guy made a program that people wanted to buy. They did. Now he has angry customers. That's how business works.

Any and all complaints he gets are par for the territory. Just because he's one man doesn't excuse him from getting ripped the same way people rip into Microsoft.

Also, $10? I paid $20, like most people. I didn't spend that money to play the game that existed, I did it because the developer asked for support to continue his game. In return he promised me a finished copy when it was done. Lots of people did this, as good will from the internet gaming community. He was lucky enough to experience an explosion of money, but that explosion has not been reflected in the development... almost laughably so.

What does he expect?

[baconian]

Notch can get away with that because his whole operation is sort of based on looking like "just a dude makin' a game," but I certainly don't think it's something for the rest of the industry to aspire to.

Hmm, well, I think it is ... Valve had a model which suddenly allowed them to deploy updates much easier, and connect with their customers far more directly, it seems to have worked for them. The general idea is entirely beneficial to both devs and gamers.

The problem arrives when you get envy and misunderstanding that these highly successful models are nothing to do with success, and that it's all based on 'luck'.

He was lucky enough to experience an explosion of money, but that explosion has not been reflected in the development... almost laughably so.

It has, since I bought during alpha there's a shedload of new features. Game dev is hard and takes time; again, it's misunderstanding and feeling of entitlement of users that all of their requests should be noticed, accepted, and immediately implemented that's the problem.

This seems to be the inevitable side effect of choosing to connect with your players so directly. Valve gets the same shit.

[tabacco]

Have you noticed how quickly this guy gets releases out after an update. 1.7 went from 1.7.1 to 1.7.2 to 1.7.3 in a couple of hours based on twitter feedback, and 1.7.3 is a stable release. This is NOT bad software engineering, it is basically agile dev taken to its MOST effective extreme.

Two things:

1. 1.7.3 isn't stable, there's still a pretty bad crash bug with Pistons. Try causing the server to load the chunk where Thompson was building and you'll find that out (don't actually do this).

2. Pushing bugfixes quickly is great. What's not great is pushing updates right before you, say, get on a plane from Sweden to San Francisco. On-the-fly updates are great, but you have to be at least a little disciplined about it. As an engineer on a popular cloud service, I can tell you the number one rule is don't push code when nobody's around to support it if something breaks. And Mojang aren't great about that.

[baconian]

I thought they fixed that in 1.7.3.

Ok, fine I'm not saying that mojang are the model of sound engineering practices, but the approach to QA they have is superior to having one or two dedicated testers. It seems to be far more productive so long as you can deal with the backlash of users who aren't prepared to deal with glitches.

I think I'm only defending it because in my job I don't get the luxury of being able to bypass QA like Mojang do, it's a grass is greener thing I guess.

[ThunderPeel2001]

It has, since I bought during alpha there's a shedload of new features. Game dev is hard and takes time; again, it's misunderstanding and feeling of entitlement of users that all of their requests should be noticed, accepted, and immediately implemented that's the problem.

This seems to be the inevitable side effect of choosing to connect with your players so directly. Valve gets the same shit.

I personally don't have a list of desired features (well, a higher "ceiling" might be nice...). The only thing I want is a finished, polished game that's well balanced, enjoyable to play and bug free. (I'd also like it if it reflected the millions that's been donated to it -- or at least part of it, through Valve-levels of polish.) Even though I don't have a list of features I want, and am not counting the clock, or closely following development, I do understand those who feel frustrated.

notch has made a deliberate decision to continue developing Minecraft the way he started developing it. He's said so many times, and I can understand his reasoning: It's what made the game so popular in the first place, so don't mess with the formula. But I can also understand people who want what they were promised, and don't feel as though notch is doing all he can with their money to ensure he delivers.

They've kept their part of the bargain: Buying a game in its alpha state in order to support the development and completion of a finished game, but notch is apparently miles behind schedule. If it wasn't widely known he'd received more than $60,000,000 USD, then I'm sure people would be more forgiving, but that's not the case. He has 70 days to deliver a fully finished game, before he breaks his part of the bargain.

I wonder what will happen when 11/11/11 hits? :-/

Edited September 2, 2011 by ThunderPeel2001

[Wubbles]

What indicates Notch isn't working hard on the game?

[elmuerte]

his facebook stream of party pics

[tabacco]

his facebook stream of party pics

Are partying and working mutually exclusive now? I believe they traditionally happen at different times of the day.

[ThunderPeel2001]

What indicates Notch isn't working hard on the game?

Was that directed at me? I never said he wasn't working hard on the game.

[Wubbles]

Yes, but only because I thought you were trying to extrapolate on what a purple future said about Notch's work ethic. If you weren't, then ignore what I said.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Wubbles

[ThunderPeel2001]

No, I presume he's doing the best he can. I was just saying that I can understand people's frustration that the 60 million that's been given to the company making the game doesn't seem to be visible in terms of development.

[Wubbles]

Right. See, the problem is that I just bought this hammer and I'm really itching to try it out.

[Erkki]

I don't think any complaints about speed of development are justified. I've only noticed them on this forum as I'm not really participating in Minecraft community. Minecraft has given me more hours of fun for $10 (or whatever the price was exactly) than most other games. With $20 it would still be so.

I really don't get where this entitlement is coming from. It smells a bit like envy.

My original comment was more along the lines of how it seems like dude works maybe 4 hours a day. I could be wrong!

And what if he does (not expressing any opinion about whether he does or doesn't)? That would be great. I would love to work 4 hours a day. If someone manages to do that and be successful, I think that's great. Programmers working 8h are usually not really productive for more than 6 hours a day anyway.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Erkki

[a purple future]

and my original comment was really just a crack on that. i'm glad he gets to do what he does. but it would be a very different story if he wasn't self-employed. that's really all i was getting at.

I still don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the state the game is at now as of 1.7 probably could have been achieved, easily, 6 months ago at this point. but i'm obviously an outsider here and couldn't know for sure.

so uh... that new lighting looks pretty awesome, right guys?

[ThunderPeel2001]

I don't think any complaints about speed of development are justified. I've only noticed them on this forum as I'm not really participating in Minecraft community. Minecraft has given me more hours of fun for $10 (or whatever the price was exactly) than most other games. With $20 it would still be so.

I really don't get where this entitlement is coming from. It smells a bit like envy.

Well nobody can say they're not envious of having $60 million in the bank :-/

Either way, having customers who REALLY want your product is a good problem for a company.

Edit: Minecraft beta does cost $20+, not $10.

Edited September 4, 2011 by ThunderPeel2001

[ThunderPeel2001]

All this talk of Minecraft made me want to load it up again... Sadly the game "can't connect to Minecraft.com" and so I can't play it. *grumble grumble*

[elmuerte]

I think he shouldn't have branched out so much in such a short time. Sure, the xbox and iphone ports are outsourced (right?). But then there's also scrolls and the minecraft convention in Vegas.

[Erkki]

I think he shouldn't have branched out so much in such a short time. Sure, the xbox and iphone ports are outsourced (right?). But then there's also scrolls and the minecraft convention in Vegas.

Yeah, but timing might be important in these cases.

I think anger at not getting the product you wanted sooner would be justified if there were some explicit promises (including dates) made before/during purchase (like, on the website). I don't remember if that was the case.

But I kind of understand the disappointment. It's getting close to a year since the single player Minecraft got a major update, I think?

[a purple future]

Do you mean the nether? if you can consider that a major update, anyway. Personally I'd say the last major SP update was survival mode and that was over a year ago. I'm glad he focused on SMP though, but it will be nice to have more substance that doesn't require installing 50 mods.

[Orv]

Edit: Minecraft beta does cost $20+, not $10.

Alpha was a cool 13 dollars before he gouged the prices for his own use!?!?@*&$(+!

While I admit to feeling envious of a guy who created a game by himself to start with, and the proceeded to become a multi-millionaire as a result, I think my issue with the "he doesn't work at all" statements are that they usually come from the entitled fuckwits that seem to inhabit the MC community.

You guys of course aren't, but the number of times I've seen someone on the internet mouth off about "I gave him my money which means e=mC I own his ass" has bothered me a lot.

Which again, isn't what you guys are saying, but it happens more often than I'd like.

[Wubbles]

By the way, Notch (or someone else in Mojang) said 1.8 should be out sometime next week.

[elmuerte]

I thought it was scheduled for 2011-11-11 11:11:11.111 UTC+11

[Wubbles]

Minecraft Facebook account says: "The date for 1.8 is expected to be released this week. I saw jeb_ scratching his head to make this happen. So it must be a good thing :)"

[Afterward]

I can't decide... I almost want to say I'd prefer that 1.8 be delayed so they can fit in more of what the "Adventure Update" is supposed to be, since pushing ahead for a release this week probably means more features will end up in 1.9/1.8.1.

On the other hand I always want a Minecraft update, all the time.

[a purple future]

jeb said he's shooting for the 8th