GDC 2010! The Idle Thumbs Conf Grenade 2010: Phaedrus 2010

[Garple]

I usually, weirdly, nowadays listen to podcasts while I'm deconstructing my Lego?

I like how that sentence ends with a question mark, as though even you didn't know what to make of it.

[OssK]

Concerning game schools -- Steve and I were talking about this yesterday a little bit and we both agreed that programs that teach you tools in lieu of design philosophy are sort of worthless. Being able to think about things in an interesting way, understand what motivates not just a player but a person, and being able to deconstruct things into its parts make you a good designer. There are some programs where design philosophy IS the focus, and I definitely commend those (USC's Interactive Media comes to mind). Learning a level builder or some sort of off the shelf engine (unless you go and use that to make something incredible, but if you're capable of making an amazing game in your free time, why are you spending money on school??) really aren't valuable. I had few technical skills before coming to Telltale but now I've learned how to wire up logic and build things in the tool. We can teach you the tools but we can't teach you how to think.

Well, as Chris said, what has been working for a few billion years might be valuable, but that would be learning the history of boardgames and child's games, divination games and also History of civilization (don't know if you've been to R.A. Salvatore telling his life to everybody with real bits of wisdom in it but it was also about that) over "what have the last decades of gaming brought to the table".

In fact, tools can be useful to get into the industry, not really to stay there. Moreover, the tools themselves vary quite considerably from one company to the next, and, might I add, Game Design is a not really a tool-oriented profession. Whereas it would be hard to come to a company saying "I'm an awesome programmer but don't know any language" or "I'm a killer modeler but don't know any 3D program" because you would lose a lot of efficiency coming with no baggage at all, I feel you could make a very good game designer with a pen.

Coming to design philosophies, what do you mean by that ? I can't really coin the meaning of the term ^.^

[Nachimir]

Concerning game schools -- Steve and I were talking about this yesterday a little bit and we both agreed that programs that teach you tools in lieu of design philosophy are sort of worthless.

Developers that think like that are rare, but increasing. Video games are deeply odd when it comes to education, at least here in the UK. University level education ("Higher education", often abbreviated to HE) is not really supposed to be biased toward vocational training, i.e. tools.

FE (further education) is usually vocational training delivered after compulsory schooling, from 18 - 20. Often, those courses aren't deep enough or long enough to teach people up to the standard required to work in a studio, so the buck gets passed to universities. In turn, developers moan about graduates not being fully formed game developers, to which HE institutes sometimes offer a wary "Fuck you, we're not worker drone production lines".

A lot of crap media courses from the 90s over here rebranded as "game design" to increase enrollment (which worked for them), and thousands of graduates from those programmes cannot get jobs in the industry. They generally realise this during their final year, because their education is giving them no practical game development skills. Noone hires on the basis of "What do you do?" "I have ideas".

The best programmes seem to be a compromise, with elements of game design, but graduates who know C++ or an art package or two, and have perhaps experimented a bit with engines. Would Telltale really hire people with no development experience or training?

[Patters]

Developers that think like that are rare, but increasing. Video games are deeply odd when it comes to education, at least here in the UK. University level education ("Higher education", often abbreviated to HE) is not really supposed to be biased toward vocational training, i.e. tools.

FE (further education) is usually vocational training delivered after compulsory schooling, from 18 - 20. Often, those courses aren't deep enough or long enough to teach people up to the standard required to work in a studio, so the buck gets passed to universities. In turn, developers moan about graduates not being fully formed game developers, to which HE institutes sometimes offer a wary "Fuck you, we're not worker drone production lines".

A lot of crap media courses from the 90s over here rebranded as "game design" to increase enrollment (which worked for them), and thousands of graduates from those programmes cannot get jobs in the industry. They generally realise this during their final year, because their education is giving them no practical game development skills. Noone hires on the basis of "What do you do?" "I have ideas".

The best programmes seem to be a compromise, with elements of game design, but graduates who know C++ or an art package or two, and have perhaps experimented a bit with engines. Would Telltale really hire people with no development experience or training?

As a few of you know, I want to work in the games industry once I have finished Uni. Currently I am in my second year of my Maths degree, and I am planning to teach myself C++ over summer and then likely take Scientific computing in my 3rd or 4th year. Am I on the ideal degree for my possible career path; probably not. Though I have not got the A levels for a CS Degree, as my 6th form didn't offer Computing as an A Level. Also from what I have heard maths is incredibly important in the field I am the most interested in: AI. I am doing logic courses which also seems to be quite appropriate also.

[OssK]

As a few of you know, I want to work in the games industry once I have finished Uni. Currently I am in my second year of my Maths degree, and I am planning to teach myself C++ over summer and then likely take Scientific computing in my 3rd or 4th year. Am I on the ideal degree for my possible career path; probably not. Though I have not got the A levels for a CS Degree, as my 6th form didn't offer Computing as an A Level. Also from what I have heard maths is incredibly important in the field I am the most interested in: AI. I am doing logic courses which also seems to be quite appropriate also.

Hmmmm…*What position would you like to have then ? Because as far as I saw, AI engineers have a diploma in "doing nothing but code for 3 years of my life" and eventually mastered in mathematics or robotics or something but "taught myself C++ this summer" seems not pro enough to get a job I fear…

Sorry I missread the post, best of luck in your search, with that diploma you should get one straight away. Oh and that was a-propos

Edited March 23, 2010 by OssK

[Patters]

Hmmmm…*What position would you like to have then ? Because as far as I saw, AI engineers have a diploma in "doing nothing but code for 3 years of my life" and eventually mastered in mathematics or robotics or something but "taught myself C++ this summer" seems not pro enough to get a job I fear…

Well yeah, I will have hopefully done Scientific Computing which involves C++, as linked in my previous post. Obviously I don't intend to enter, or even think it's possible to start in AI. I still have over 2 years of my degree left, as far as I have seen both graduate programs and intern programs are fairly typical of Lionhead's. I haven't put all my eggs in one basket though, I just don't want to be a banker or an accountant.

EDIT: My main reason for wanting to do AI eventually is from a Bungie podcast, which is absolutely fascinating to me, which specified that a strong comprehension of maths is required.

[OssK]

EDIT: My main reason for wanting to do AI eventually is from a Bungie podcast, which is absolutely fascinating to me, which specified that a strong comprehension of maths is required.

In my experience that is as necessary as having a brain able to contain and perceive hugely complex mathematical models that cross, intersect and possibly add up to something different as the AI guys I worked with had

-Yeah, but remember, when he detects that and this he's supposed to do that !

-Well, what about in that situation ? Then what ?

-Eeeerm… Well, you find out *at this point I runaway in my office to cry*

[Sleepdance]

The newest internet scandal(try to watch it with Thumbs in mind):

ryH2WemACIM

Man, I never knew Jake was idictive, violent and is one of the main reasons we will have violent future.....

[James]

Though I have not got the A levels for a CS Degree, as my 6th form didn't offer Computing as an A Level.

Does CS require specific A-levels? I would have thought most places would accept you on the basis of good overall grades and at least one maths-or-science subject. I don't remember the exact requirements when I applied, but it didn't seem super-strict (depending on the university, of course).

[Marek]

I think when seen from the perspective of a student, the best thing to get out of an education is an understanding of the processes, approaches, thinking etc. that goes into whatever you want to do in the games industry.

For a game designer, you can probably self-teach a lot of design-technical things such as creating mechanics (e.g. rock/paper/scissors), tweaking/balancing, the basics of level construction, GDD writing, etc. If you read a lot, experiment, etc. you can get a feel for these practical things over time. But much harder to achieve without a full education is the fundamental insight into conceptual processes / design thinking, iterative development, user testing, brainstorming techniques, etc. These are best learnt within groups and in an experimental school setting with guidance from teachers, as these are kind of intuitive and not so easy to get from a book.

I don't know as much about programming but it might be similar there -- I imagine after a while you can self-teach a lot of languages and specific tricks and techniques, but what's much harder to learn on your own are the right general problem-solving skills, the underlying logic of certain approaches, the usefulness of certain standards/best practices etc.

Unfortunately, from an industry perspective, what you'd probably want is just more dudes who can model a thing or script a sequence. You're probably not really going to hire people fresh out of school who have the right insight and vision but do not have great practical skills that you can immediately slot into a team at the most junior level.

Still, I think if your ambition is to make games, seeking out one of the more 'design philosophical' slanted courses is probably the way to go. You might have a tougher start in the industry than those who were taught a lot more immediate practical skills, but you'll have core fundamental insights to build on for the rest of your career, and with that insight you can probably learn all the needed practical skills on your own over time, or mod/indie/whatever your way into the industry and get a start somewhere somehow.

That's what I've seen from my experience anyway. Results may vary, I am a doctor not a lawyer, etc. etc.

[Patters]

Does CS require specific A-levels? I would have thought most places would accept you on the basis of good overall grades and at least one maths-or-science subject. I don't remember the exact requirements when I applied, but it didn't seem super-strict (depending on the university, of course).

Apparently not, I just checked my uni's site. Though when applying to uni and until about half way through 1st year I wanted to work in finance. I had no idea how to get into computer science as my school were pretty bad at pushing us to University, in a way I think I was pushed by them to do a maths degree, which is all good, instead of something I am more interested in, the School itself seems more concerned with grades (particularly in mathematics), admittedly the A level Maths and Further Maths we did gave fantastic results. Though I don't know if the CS school here would accept me either way, I got AACC for my A levels and the standard requirement is AAB.

Done complaining.

[Nachimir]

As a few of you know, I want to work in the games industry once I have finished Uni. Currently I am in my second year of my Maths degree, and I am planning to teach myself C++ over summer and then likely take Scientific computing in my 3rd or 4th year. Am I on the ideal degree for my possible career path; probably not. Though I have not got the A levels for a CS Degree, as my 6th form didn't offer Computing as an A Level. Also from what I have heard maths is incredibly important in the field I am the most interested in: AI. I am doing logic courses which also seems to be quite appropriate also.

Solid maths skill is a massive plus, though not without the ability to program. It *is* something you can self teach, though difficult. Also, bear in mind that academic AI bears only some relation to game AI. Simulating a mind is nothing like the kind of role-specific performances you'd be creating within the budgets and aims of a game.

[Roswell47]

The newest internet scandal(try to watch it with Thumbs in mind):

ryH2WemACIM

Man, I never knew Jake was idictive, violent and is one of the main reasons we will have violent future.....

omfg I raged so hard on that (excuse my french) bitch!

[eljay]

I don't know as much about programming but it might be similar there -- I imagine after a while you can self-teach a lot of languages and specific tricks and techniques, but what's much harder to learn on your own are the right general problem-solving skills, the underlying logic of certain approaches, the usefulness of certain standards/best practices etc.

As a programmer in the industry I can say this is definitely the case. I learned java at Uni and have since taught myself C# followed by C++ (also have had to learn SQL, php and some Python). Understanding how to approach solutions to problems and how to structure a program are very transferable skills.

Unfortunately, from an industry perspective, what you'd probably want is just more dudes who can model a thing or script a sequence .... You might have a tougher start in the industry than those who were taught a lot more immediate practical skills

This is less true for a programmer, every studio I've interacted with prefer maths or CS degrees as they'll give you a much broader problem solving base to draw from.

[Murdoc]

Man, would it EVER!

I once dreamed of going to Digipen when I first read about it in an issue of Nintendo Power as a kid...

Me too! I still have that Nintendo power, unfortantly by the time I graduated highschool diginpen moved out of Vancouver.

So by the time I went to school it was not as good and it was in the 3d era, I really would have still liked to have gone back during the Snes days though, man that would have been amazing.

I hope by the time I'm 40 they have a camp for middle aged men like that.

[Coods]

Also, Stalker is far cry 2 2010. I await many episodes of talking about stalker.

I await many episodes of awkward silence, then saying video games, then saying some variation of "yes", then Jake coming to a wild realization and announcing "STALKER!"

..That kind of already happens. But still.

:tup:

[Sean]

I started playing Far Cry 2 this weekend (on my PS3 -- which I should say is a shoddy port) and Chris and Steve came over. Chris walked in and made a "crowd goes wild" "ahhhh!" noise with some hand waving for a solid 20 seconds. Apparently those dudes are big fans of that game.

[Sombre]

I started playing Far Cry 2 this weekend (on my PS3 -- which I should say is a shoddy port) and Chris and Steve came over. Chris walked in and made a "crowd goes wild" "ahhhh!" noise with some hand waving for a solid 20 seconds. Apparently those dudes are big fans of that game.

Fans of Farcry 2? Tell me more

[Sully907]

I started playing Far Cry 2 this weekend (on my PS3 -- which I should say is a shoddy port) and Chris and Steve came over. Chris walked in and made a "crowd goes wild" "ahhhh!" noise with some hand waving for a solid 20 seconds. Apparently those dudes are big fans of that game.

PS3 version is a bad port? I played it on PS3 and I thought it looked fantastic, are you saying in comparison to the 360 or the PC version?

[Sean]

PS3 version is a bad port? I played it on PS3 and I thought it looked fantastic, are you saying in comparison to the 360 or the PC version?

Apparently. Chris and Steve weren't impressed -- I don't have a version to compare it to.

[Garple]

Well I guess if anyone would know enough about Far Cry 2 to make the comparison it would be Chris Remo, Steve Gaynor or Nick Breckon. They are serious about some Far Cry 2.

[Brannigan]

I await many episodes of awkward silence, then saying video games, then saying some variation of "yes", then Jake coming to a wild realization and announcing "STALKER!"

..That kind of already happens. But still.

:tup:

Amusingly stalker has become my far cry 2. I keep jabbering on to friends about it and trying to get them to play it. Oddly enough I had a tough time getting into far cry 2, but this game totally made me it's bitch.

[Erkki]

Amusingly stalker has become my far cry 2. I keep jabbering on to friends about it and trying to get them to play it. Oddly enough I had a tough time getting into far cry 2, but this game totally made me it's bitch.

I'm suffering from Stalker withdrawal. I thought the game (COP) had perfect length but now I wish it hadn't ended so soon. I think I might play Clear Sky, I only played a couple of hours of it when it came out. Or maybe some Fallout 3 DLC.

[Brannigan]

I'm suffering from Stalker withdrawal. I thought the game (COP) had perfect length but now I wish it hadn't ended so soon. I think I might play Clear Sky, I only played a couple of hours of it when it came out. Or maybe some Fallout 3 DLC.

I'm actually pacing myself so I don't burn through it. Might finish it up over spring break if art projects don't consume my life. Or other games.

[Joflar]

I'm not sure I quoted Soren Johnson too accurately during the cast, but in reference to evolution and WoW, Soren specifically used the example of build trees. He started with a base Paladin and showed that over time, choices are made to become increasingly more specialized, where you've got upwards of eight different combined specs, from healer to tank and everywhere in between. He compared these specs to Darwin's finches and to then argue that WoW, in some ways, was more ABOUT evolution than Spore, despite Spore's theme (or "creative wrapper). I agreed with him at the time, and I think I still do. You guys have made the (intelligent) point that evolution is about natural selection, whereas your WoW spec is a conscious choice. I think it *could* (and that's a big could) be argued that perhaps a Paladin (or Druid or Hunter or whoever) makes the choices they do in WoW based on what will help them thrive moment to moment in the game. While some players certainly set out with the idea "I'm going to become a resto druid," it's not difficult to imagine the player who, based on the fact that they solo or that all of their friends are mages, start to make less conscious choices about their specialization and simply evolve into whatever makes the most sense for the types of situations they generally find themselves in during the game.

Of course, you still have to click the little box to say "yeah, one point in feral please." So there's that. It's a loose connection, but I think if you look past the fine details, Soren makes a good point. It should also be said that this was about 90 seconds of a 60 minute talk, the whole of which is well worth tracking down on the GDC Vault if you're into such things.

Sorry to resuscitate a dead topic but I recently read the article Sean was talking about: http://www.designer-notes.com/?p=237

As I understand it, the conscious choice of designing a spec is heavily dependent on min/maxing according to the game rules. Game Patches cause some traits to lose desirability and others to gain desirability. Whereas in Spore, you can get the raptor claws or a jelly tentacle and the game environment doesn't encourage you into a certain route.