castorp Posted August 21, 2009 Thanks for the link, Nevsky. Very good read. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erkki Posted August 21, 2009 Man, now I've played about 9 hours and still haven't beaten it. Not as short as I thought. But I'm poking around the place a lot instead of following the blue path most of the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted August 21, 2009 erh... wth... People are hypocrites, and entitled to their opinion. Boycotting Shadow Complex because an associated person has views you don't agree with sounds weird to me. Maybe if the person had a prominent role in the development... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHoatzin Posted August 21, 2009 erh... wth...People are hypocrites, and entitled to their opinion. Boycotting Shadow Complex because an associated person has views you don't agree with sounds weird to me. Maybe if the person had a prominent role in the development... Sometimes I kindof can't help it. Will Wright's politics took the shine off of my enjoyment of Spore and all the Maxis games. I don't think I'll feel free to enjoy John Lasseter's movies as care-freely as I have. I haven't been able to enjoy Ren and Stimpy since John Kricfalusi started a blog and showed himself to be an artistically incestuous creepy old man.It is nigh impossible for me to separate creative work from its makers. Having been minced through half a decade of art school and come out on the other side, I know for a fact that there is nothing inherently magical to the creative process, that who I am and what I think about day to day is inseparable from my work—ditto for others. If I find something I like, I want to know more about the maker, so that I can find more of his/her stuff and have a sort of one-way conversation. If they turn out to be a turd of a person, I am a bit saddened and I have to reevaluate the conversation we've had. In this particular case, I can't be forced to care all that much. What is appealing to me about the game is the atmosphere and gameplay, and Orson Scott Card had shit to do with that. He just provided the storymaking equivalent of middleware for the project. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
syntheticgerbil Posted August 21, 2009 I haven't been able to enjoy Ren and Stimpy since John Kricfalusi started a blog and showed himself to be an artistically incestuous creepy old man. Oh man, I'm incredibly familiar with this feeling. I almost wish the guy just would have shut up and stayed in hiding forever. Now I have a love/hate relationship with a guy who was somewhat my animation hero beforehand. Similar experience with Doug TenNapel... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elmuerte Posted August 21, 2009 ... ... ignorance is bliss? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vimes Posted August 21, 2009 showed himself to be an artistically incestuous creepy old man. Mmm, what does that mean ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHoatzin Posted August 21, 2009 Mmm, what does that mean ? Back when I used to have his blog on my rss feed, the only kind of older work he would post was work that inspired his sensibilities, from which you could draw a direct line to Ren & Stimpy, and the only kind of work by new kids he would link to was stuff that unabashedly ripped off his own style. I am talking in the past tense because I don't know if this is still the case. At some point he ran out of fresh stuff to post and I stopped reading. Edit: and as for the "creepy old man" bit, he had this protégé, a girl half his age, who fell squarely into the "unabashedly ripping off his style" camp. Her style was nothing more than a competent ripoff of Ren and Stimpy, and he was constantly gushing over her work, to the point where it became creepy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
syntheticgerbil Posted August 21, 2009 I still read his blog everyday and he mostly only has good things to say about color theory and appeal but tends to repeat himself each time. He seems to spend more time hitting on female wannabe animators younger than half his age, making weird long posts about how rap music is not really music, and posting pictures of his creepy decades old Hanna Barbara toys that he still has hanging around. I can't wrap my head around that stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brkl Posted August 21, 2009 He just provided the storymaking equivalent of middleware for the project. I like this. Re: the other stuff... Just block your ears, close your eyes and chant: Happy, happy, joy, joy Happy, happy, joy, joy... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erkki Posted August 22, 2009 I tend to agree with this quote from a comment on Gamasutra regarding the possible boycott of this game. If people are really just boycotting this game to "get at" or demonstrate against Orson Scott Card, they're also hurting a lot of people who just wanted to make a good action/exploration game (and, in my opinion, succeeded magnificently in doing so). Is it OK to dismiss all the--for all intents and purposes--apolitical developers at Chair as collateral damage because of some personal vendetta against someone else entirely? Seriously, these people made a great game, of which story is the weakest part and can safely be ignored, and Card didn't have much to do with it anyway as far as I can tell (he is credited in Very Special Thanks or something like that). Still, why did they even have to associate this with OSC and some existing IP when it's so generic -- I have no idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted August 22, 2009 Am I the first one here to do everything in Shadow Complex except the ridicuoulsy hard challenges like beating the game under 2 hours with 100% items? So ONE of the people involved in Shadow Complex is against gay rights... If you're going to boycott this game for ONE person, they you should boycott ALL games that have a bigot in them... How do you know that some guy who worked on <insert random popular game here> wasn't a bigot? Games nowadays have a LOT of people working on them, the chances of at least one of them being a jerk is quite high... I must say the game takes a LOT of things from Super Metroid, the only thing the hero DOESN'T do that Samus does is roll up in a ball! The only annoying part of the game, is the levelling system, you get so much more by getting items or uncovering the map that you literally have to replay the game 3 or 4 times to reach level 50... Or you can grind in a certain area with the only respawning mini boss... When you play on Insane you notice the stealth elements so much more, and you have to be so much more careful because you take a ridiculous ammont of damage! It's funny how the first game I've beaten on the hardest difficulty doesn't have any achievement or anything to prove I did it... The foam is actually much more cooler than the ice beam, once you master it! I think the biggest challenge in the game (not counting the speedrun on Insane thing) is actually the final challenge room, which is almost a game on it's own! The others are about mastering the foam or the wall jump, but the final one forces you to use everything you've learned and it even have powerups! I must adore this game since I didn't stop playing until I got all the "real achievements", the game has four extra ones, one is just a joke ending and the other three demand to beat the game under ridiculous requirements! I would have liked it even more if the characters and enemies weren't so bland... Only one boss was interesting and it was easy even on Insane! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted August 22, 2009 So ONE of the people involved in Shadow Complex is against gay rights...If you're going to boycott this game for ONE person, they you should boycott ALL games that have a bigot in them... How do you know that some guy who worked on <insert random popular game here> wasn't a bigot? Games nowadays have a LOT of people working on them, the chances of at least one of them being a jerk is quite high... I think it has to do with the game's story taking place "in a world" created by an outspoken anti-gay guy who's the chairman in some anti-gay organization or something. There's a difference between this and, say, a texture artist being racist. I think a fair simile is not boycotting a film where the grip is a neo-nazi, but still boycotting a film co-produced by Hitler. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted August 22, 2009 But the world isn't tainted by the bigot, non of the characters seems to be bigot, and the world doesn't seem to be anti-gay, so what the big deal? It's like if the movie co-produced by Hitler you mentioned was about puppies prancing around, would you just let it go and watch it or boycott it because if Hitler is anti-Semite the movie MUST have some hidden anti-Semite agenda? The only way I'd ever think of boycotting Shadow Complex if the game was actually anti-gay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
syntheticgerbil Posted August 22, 2009 I think it has to do with the game's story taking place "in a world" created by an outspoken anti-gay guy who's the chairman in some anti-gay organization or something. There's a difference between this and, say, a texture artist being racist. I think a fair simile is not boycotting a film where the grip is a neo-nazi, but still boycotting a film co-produced by Hitler. Hahah, that makes me think of a disgruntled texture artist adding swastika bump maps on some walls in secret. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHoatzin Posted August 22, 2009 It's like if the movie co-produced by Hitler you mentioned was about puppies prancing around, would you just let it go and watch it or boycott it because if Hitler is anti-Semite the movie MUST have some hidden anti-Semite agenda?Vapid entertainment is by its nature fascist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted August 22, 2009 Vapid entertainment is by its nature fascist. Would it be better if the puppies were philosopher kung fu masters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHoatzin Posted August 22, 2009 Depends, is it animated by Dreamworks or Jim Henson? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tanukitsune Posted August 22, 2009 Depends, is it animated by Dreamworks or Jim Henson? They are a bunch of Jim Henson puppy puppets that frolic and dance with David Bowie! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Psych Posted August 22, 2009 Still, why did they even have to associate this with OSC and some existing IP when it's so generic -- I have no idea. They should have just used the GI Joe franchise since the bad guys in this are essentially Cobra. I think the biggest challenge in the game (not counting the speedrun on Insane thing) is actually the final challenge room, which is almost a game on it's own! The others are about mastering the foam or the wall jump, but the final one forces you to use everything you've learned and it even have powerups! That actually reminded me a lot of Knytt Stories which is a collection of short metroidvania games all built around the same power ups, I really hope whatever DLC they make for shadow complex has more of these remixed campaigns, and that they mix things up more, like maybe giving you the hyper-run first and then saving grenades or even your gun until last. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gdf Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) I don't want to play it having read Nutt's article. Natural reaction. Also, his political views apparently have influenced the world. Not the anti-gay stuff, but the "I hate lefties" stuff. I don't want to have to sit through some veiled fucking right-wing propaganda to play a pretty good looking Castroid! I'd feel like a traitor. Like it was mentioned, why the fuck did they need to potentially ruin this for some by bringing on board a nutter like this when it looks like every other action game ever ever ever? Similar experience with Doug TenNapel... Hey thanks for ruining Earthworm Jim for me I investigated and it turns out he's some kind of horrible extremist anti-abortion gay-hater who shits all over people he disagrees with for little or no good reason. Edited August 23, 2009 by gdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Psych Posted August 23, 2009 Also, his political views apparently have influenced the world. Not the anti-gay stuff, but the "I hate lefties" stuff. I don't want to have to sit through some veiled fucking right-wing propaganda to play a pretty good looking Castroid! I'd feel like a traitor. If that's your problem then you have nothing to worry about. The bad guys ideology is never ever discussed in Shadow Complex, like I said before they're essentially Cobra. Hey thanks for ruining Earthworm Jim for me I investigated and it turns out he's some kind of horrible extremist anti-abortion gay-hater who shits all over people he disagrees with for little or no good reason. TenNapel's views are pretty obvious if you read most of his comics, they all seem pretty nuetral at the outset, but by the third act they tend to become these terrible religious allegories. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James Posted August 23, 2009 Funnily enough, I was paying little enough attention to the story that I'd assumed the bad guys were right-wingers. I was listening to podcasts and watching videos throughout, and I don't feel like it lessened the experience in the slightest. The only thing which slightly troubles me is the idea of a portion of my money going to Card, but as has been said, he's only credited as a very special thanks, so I'm not sure how much he's profiting off this in particular, and I'm not really much of a boycotter anyway. The thing that bothers me about giving him money is not his personal wealth, but the prospect of his using that to fund a cause I disagree with, and there isn't really any way of knowing that others aren't doing that in private. Perhaps I'm just avoiding the issue so that I can justify playing a game I want to play, but it seems to me that the whole six degrees of separation thing dictates that we can never regulate where our money ends up. What is an acceptable distance from what we consider a bad cause? Does this difficulty mean we should give up on being idealogical with our purchases altogether? I suppose not. Anyway, I don't feel too tormented about it. I now know TheJamesM likes punching guys. A lot. Hahahaha, yeah. At first I was focusing on headshots because I like to shoot people in the head, but then I noticed someone was ahead of me in mêlée, so I focussed on that for a bit, and then I continued to focus on it, and then I realized it was quite easy and amusing to just run straight into a bunch of guys and beat them all up, and then I got the fancy armour that enables crazy ragdoll physics and now I'm a little bit annoyed when he does the previously cool take-downs because they don't launch people across the room. I'm not doing particularly well on the screams, though. I took a whopping eleven hours to finish the game, but that's partly because I went for (and got) 100%, and partly because I obsessed over getting some of the items before I got power-ups that would have made it a hell of a lot easier (some of them are pretty fiddly regardless, though, to the point that I was thinking that there must be a neater way of doing it). I didn't do the tutorial stuff, so I didn't know that there was going to be a triple-jump. That would have helped quite a lot with a few of them. Anyway, it's a really great game, so it's a shame that one tangentially-involved dick is preventing some from playing it. People are perfectly entitled to boycott, and I'm not questioning anyone's decision to do so, but it sucks that it had to be this game that got caught up in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted August 23, 2009 I don't know if anything has been said with regards to sequels or DLC, but my guess is that, with these two facts: People don't necessarily want to play a game with Card's name on it, anywhere. I've never started an Xbox 360 game, and seen that the five other people online are all playing that same game before ... they'll be making an awesome sequel that's not related to Card's fiction in any way. My guess is the connection is more of a marketing thing than a real story connection anyway, and with the amazing response Shadow Complex has gotten, I don't think they need that anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamGS Posted August 23, 2009 After enjoying Shadow Complex I've decided to do some research on this Orson Scott Card chap. So basically he's a crazy Republican who believes same sex marriage to be a "devastating social experiment". And then says giving gay people the right to be married is the end of democracy in America. He also doesn't believe in global warming, supported Goerge W Bush's administration and supported John McCain in the last presidential election. So, in Shadow Complex you could very well be fighting against the evil forces of Barrak Obama? Still, it's a good game, but the reports that some of the developers at Chair share his views is a little worrying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
