Godless in America

[ysbreker]

I saw this interesting documentary about the life of the number one atheist of America: Madalyn Murray O’Hair And I thought you guysmight like it too.

It's on youtube in 5 parts here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?index=0&feature=PlayList&p=464084432D0128AF&v=zamr1NsA3L4&playnext=1

It's got the most annoying voice over ever, but it's still an interesting thing to watch.

[brkl]

I only watched two minutes of the first clip out of interest. Man, American atheists seem insane.

[Ginger]

I haven't seen it, but fanatical atheists with very strong "faith" in their beliefs and a desire to spread them throughout the world make me laugh.

[DanJW]

Talking of which, I hear that the Atheist Bus campaign recently launched. Anyone seen one? Of course I think that is less a case of 'evangelism' and more a tongue-in-cheek 'fuck you!' to the christian bus advertisers.

[Jake]

Saw some photos of the ads on a bus... quality! The message of basically "shut up, just enjoy your life and treat each other like humans" was refreshing.

[elmuerte]

Interesting documentary... although a good 50% is about the murder and not really about "godless in America", which is a shame.

This "Atheists of America" almost feels like a religion... which is exactly the reason why I don't say I'm an atheist, even though I actually am. I simply say that I don't follow a religion, and don't believe in supernatural beings (i.e. god(s) and stuff).

[brkl]

How about telling people you're an atheist, but not treating it as a religion? I refuse to let a bunch of douchebags to steal the term from me.

[syntheticgerbil]

...which is exactly the reason why I don't say I'm an atheist, even though I actually am.

That and in general it's just a good idea to never bring that up in the Jesusland Confederacy states of the good ol' U.S.A.!

[elmuerte]

How about telling people you're an atheist, but not treating it as a religion? I refuse to let a bunch of douchebags to steal the term from me.

I don't want to be placed within a group which is associated with religion. The whole grouping is an issue. Not those doucebags (who I didn't know about before).

But maybe it's just in my head... but I simply don't use the term atheist to describe myself.

"Religion: none"

has a different ring to it than

"Religion: atheist"

[Erkki]

Iiiiii want too beeeeee nonarchist

[brkl]

"Religion: none"

has a different ring to it than

"Religion: atheist"

Atheism is not a religion. Some people are trying to make it one, and will succeed if moderate people shun away from the term because of those people.

[Roderick]

Atheism may be or become a community, which is perfectly fine and harmless, but it'll never be a religion, unless they start adding rituals and an element of faith to it. Atheism isn't about faith; you don't have 'faith' in the non-existence of god. It's a conclusion you draw out of the absolute lack of scientific evidence and an apparently uncommon amount of common sense within you.

But your problem with grouping, Elmuerte, you'll find everywhere, with any sort of aspect of life where a community might form. Just because I'm a gamer, doesn't mean I associate with the sort of attitude wide-spread over the internet. Yet I wouldn't let a few preconceptions rob the term gamer away from me. And Atheism, especially in the Netherlands, is quite the neutral term nowadays. Only old people fuss over it.

[SignorSuperdouche]

That's a fairly weird documentary there, I was just expecting it to go on to explain how she scarpered with the cash but then it turned into a bad episode of CSI .

I'm in two minds about having an atheist group like this. Removing "under God" from the pledge of allegiance and forced prayer from schools is a noble cause, and it is vitally important that someone fight for this, but this woman seemed so petty and childish. Being so confrontational and fostering a "them and us" mentality wont help anything. Extremism on one side will just encourage more extremism on the other and things will just escalate with each side blind to the fact their actions merely confirm the biases of their opponents.

This is my problem with the bus add too. The "Now stop worrying and get on with your life" part way too authoritarian and will only piss off religious/agnostic folks drawing more lines between us.

[Roderick]

I'm having the same uncertainty on how to approach religion, with the same feelings after seeing Religulous, Bill Maher's documentary/comedy. On the one hand, polarising the groups is a bad idea, that never works. On the other hand, bending over backwards is a horrible idea as well. A safe road is to always have proper scientific arguments and logical common sense ones, and don't fight them, but discuss and argue in an instructional way. Whatever 'we're' doing, it's for future generations, not for this one. Hardcore religious people won't be persuaded, ever, no matter how clear your case is.

[gdf]

I liked her, atheists seem a little persecuted in the US and although she reminded me a little too much of fundamentalist Christians in her attitude, her anger was exactly what was required to bring attention to the fact that atheists are Americans too.

Most people I know over here are either atheist or agnostic - it just seems to be the default now - which can only be a good thing in my mind. If you want to follow a religion it should be on your own terms, not through indoctrination.

And saying "no religion" basically is the definition of atheist (a theos - "without God").

[elmuerte]

Atheism may be or become a community, which is perfectly fine and harmless

But that's exactly what I don't want. I don't want to be seen as part of that community or even group. I want to be seen as part of the group of people who are not part of a group...

erm... right...

ok, this is starting to feel like the same irony as anarchy groups.

maybe I should simply start using "Pastafarian" as religion.

[brkl]

Then tell people you're not part of a group, don't just pussy out. If you're so concerned about what other people think about you, why not just become Christian...

[gdf]

I imagine that there are now as many nonreligious people in the west as there are theists, so I think the whole point is that it's not really a group, it should just be taken as the norm. If you went by that token then atheism and agnosticism would probably be bigger "religions" than Christianity and Islam.

[DanJW]

I must get round to getting my Papal business card printed.

[Marek]

Obligatory link to George Carlin video... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=casUr9UsabY I so love his bit about sun worship.

[Nick]

I must get round to getting my Papal business card printed.

To excommunicate, de-ex-communicate, re-ex-communicate, and de-re-ex-communicate (no backsies!) both his-/her-/it-/them-/your-/our-/His-/Her-/It-/Them-/Your-/Our-self/selves and others (if any).

I would love to de-re-ex-anything.

[James]

In terms of religious belief, I describe myself as an atheist, because I specifically believe there is no god. I don't claim to know definitively, but I'm in no more doubt than I am about my being the subject of a real-world Truman Show or something. It could be the case, but I believe it isn't, so I wouldn't describe myself as agnostic.

So yes, my beliefs are atheist, but I don't identify as an atheist any more than I identify as a gamer. I just don't feel particularly connected to either community, in as much as either group is a community. I play games and I believe there is no god, but I don't think either defines me. Perhaps I'm just averse to being pigeon-holed, and have some sort of arrogant idea of individuality. I guess I'm more of a gamer than an atheist; after all, I spend more of my life playing games than thinking about religion, and am a member of a gaming forum but not an atheism one.

Where's this going? Nowhere in particular. I have nothing interesting to add.

EDIT:

"In some states, atheists are barred from public office."

Is this true? If so, that's pretty fucked up.

Edited January 17, 2009 by JamesM

[n0wak]

I guess I'm more of a gamer than an atheist; after all, I spend more of my life playing games than thinking about religion, and am a member of a gaming forum but not an atheism one.

So are you of the Miyamoto branch or the Molyneux branch? I tolerate either as long as you're not one of those heathen Kojima followers.

Also, I really hate it when people label those that argue in favour of no gods as being "evangelical atheists". No. They're not. That's a very Christian word and definition and it doesn't apply.

[DanJW]

Yeah, just because atheism has a name, doesn't make it a grouping. In the Venn diagram of religions, atheism is the area off the paper.

It's dumb to say you are not an atheist when that is what you are. Don't let other people's misconceptions control your terminology.

There are groups of atheists that are considering the benefits of forming groups and communities, but they would never call themselves just 'atheists'. They'll probably go for something acronymical (cool word huh?)

[James]

So are you of the Miyamoto branch or the Molyneux branch? I tolerate either as long as you're not one of those heathen Kojima followers.

Hahahaha, quite.

I find it a little weird how people are obsessed with categorizing themselves. I suppose people seek a sense of community, but it comes at the cost of distancing themselves from everyone else, either implicitly or explicitly. It's like how people who fight in wars apparently know a kind of brotherhood (or sisterhood) inaccessible to everyone else, but have to be in a situation where everyone's trying to kill someone to get it; to really connect with one group of people, do we have to dehumanize another?

I don't know if these thoughts are really properly connected.